Sonny Liston

[Ezzard]

When I first started reading boxing magazines and really loving the sport Liston was a bit of a maligned figure. Bad for the sport. Possibly threw fights with Ali. Connections with the mob. Quit on his stool.

But just around the corner there were a number of articles that reassessed Liston. He was a giant of yesterday who could hang with the big boys of the day. He had a sledgehammer jab. Knockout power. A great chin. Battling his way to the final bell with a broken jaw early in his career was evidence that he did have backbone.

What you read when you’re young tends to stay with you. As you get older you’ve sort of read it all, heard it all, seen it all before…

I think of Liston as a great heavyweight.

Like many of the great champs he had a great run to the title. Cutting through a swathe of contenders. Then he smashed a much loved champ in Floyd. But his actual reign wasn’t all that great…

Then he ran into Ali who couldn’t have been better suited to defeating Sonny The Monster. Ali moved like a middleweight. He was Tunney and Jersey Joe all in one…only bigger but without losing and speed or grace or dexterity.

Guys on here I respect like Seamus don’t buy the Liston myth (apologies if my memory is wrong on this).

What do others think? Pros and cons…

[fatcity69]

If there was no Ali its hard to see anyone else beating Liston until Frazier came along in the late 60s. One of the myths about Liston is that he was slow, he was actually a pretty fast handed and fluid fighter, especially for one of his size and build. All time heavyweight top ten for sure imo...

[Ezzard]

Liston went into the Ali fight having fought 6 rounds in 4 years. The intimidation factor was winning him fights before the opening bell.

He was not prepared for Ali in any way.

But I don't think he could ever have beaten him.

The story was that Liston was in great physical and mental shape for the rematch until it got cancelled. He then couldn't motivate himself again.

It would have been nice to have seen Liston prepared and willing to go after Ali. He'd still have lost most likely but it would have benefitted both men if Liston had put up a stout challenge.

If Ali had not been around Liston would have swatted the Coopers and Londons...won another against Williams...

But eventually his lifestyle would have caught up with him. Or, like many punchers he would have succumbed to a belief in his own power.

I think by 1967 Terell might have won an upset.

[fatcity69]

I think Terrell would have given Liston some problems but am not sure he would have stood up under Listons power. Sonnys jab would have negated Terrells too I think. I agree that Sonnys lifestyle would have caught up with him though, I think it was partly borne out of his disappointment at how he was treated as champion.

[Ezzard]

I think he'd already peaked when he won the title. In his prime he beast Terrell but after a few years of beating gimmees I think Terrell would be a great bet.

[fatcity69]

Or maybe even a fitter hungrier mid 60s Chuvalo outlasting him perhaps.

[funso banjo baby]

Liston was largely ignored until he blasted Patterson away and then all the boxing papers hailed him as a great, and compared him to the legends of old.

that was certainly destroyed after Ali.

personally i rate him as a great for two reasons...his form before and after the ali fights. around 58 he was a real force. but its also his off the radar later career that was impressive. altho he was rejected by the american fight scene, he travelled abroad compiling some really impressive wins.

when i read those old mags years ago i was always amazed that Listion was still a bona fide top ten right into 1970.

when you rate Liston and any other heavweight champs i think its fair to include aspects such as - longevity of careers. by far the majority of hw champs tend to retire or quickly fizzle out after losing the crown.

Liston was a major threat from 1958 to 1970 its just a shame that politics and whatever else overshadowed that

[fatcity69]

I think Liston was pretty highly rated from the late 50s onwards... he really should have got a title shot at least 2 or 3 years earlier.

[funso banjo baby]

''But his 'blow-outs over Floyd Patterson were over-rated, as Sonny was 'extremely motivated'
when he took on Floyd''



what the fcuk are you typing about. u twit. pure goobledygook that only you and ur 2 friends seem to appreciate

[Ezzard]

I think Liston was pretty highly rated from the late 50s onwards... he really should have got a title shot at least 2 or 3 years earlier.

No doubt about that. He was the best heavyweight for a number of years before winning the title...not unlike Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey...

[funso banjo baby]

''But his 'blow-outs over Floyd Patterson were over-rated, as Sonny was 'extremely motivated'
when he took on Floyd''



what the fcuk are you typing about. u twit. pure goobledygook that only you and ur 2 friends seem to appreciate

Going by that statement, I can tell you never saw 'Sonny Boy' in his '2-Bouts' with Howard 'Honey Boy' King.
* February 23, 1960
* March 8, 1961

Take a look at those bouts you Jukebox Timebomb 'wanna-be', and then come back and tell us all what a great fighter you saw....

we were talking about his entire career...you anal wart.
not some dismal little snippet you want to try popping out of your pitiful pez dispenser of history.

[funso banjo baby]

not interested. go away

ur dull

[SaadOffTheDeck]

not interested. go away

ur dull

Then stop stalking him and offer something of use. Your only posts in here are trolling, get a life.

[evrenb]

http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/108046 ... 0YeabeI%3d

Liston is a beast !

[klompton]

not interested. go away

ur dull

Then stop stalking him and offer something of use. Your only posts in here are trolling, get a life.

What a shocker. You criticise other people for not starting threads and yet you only come on here to defend Il Duce. Have fun with all the respect that earns you.


As for the original post. I think Liston was good and his wins over Patterson were great but I also think hes overrated. I dont rate him with guys like Louis, Foreman, and Tyson. Liston was slow. I dont see him as being fast and fluid at all. I would have loved to have seen a rematch with Eddie Machen. Machen fought Liston with one hand and made a razor thin fight of it. Ive often wondered how things might have been different had he faced Liston with two good hands.

[dr_devious]

Sonny is largely remembered for his two no shows against Ali. Who really knows what was going on there, but what is for sure he was the best heavyweight in the world for 5 or 6 years before. Top ten heavyweight for sure

[SaadOffTheDeck]

not interested. go away

ur dull

Then stop stalking him and offer something of use. Your only posts in here are trolling, get a life.

What a shocker. You criticise other people for not starting threads and yet you only come on here to defend Il Duce. Have fun with all the respect that earns you.

What a shocker, you're crying again. Nobody could ever gain your level of message board respect

Get him Klompton! You should write a book on Il Duce and his internet evils. What would really be shocking is if you ever levied something legitimate my way. Troll and Il Duce defender certainly don't cut it. Oh well, I've picked up many fans along the way. I see you've joined the club.

[dempseyfire]

not interested. go away

ur dull

Then stop stalking him and offer something of use. Your only posts in here are trolling, get a life.

What a shocker. You criticise other people for not starting threads and yet you only come on here to defend Il Duce. Have fun with all the respect that earns you.


As for the original post. I think Liston was good and his wins over Patterson were great but I also think hes overrated. I dont rate him with guys like Louis, Foreman, and Tyson. Liston was slow. I dont see him as being fast and fluid at all. I would have loved to have seen a rematch with Eddie Machen. Machen fought Liston with one hand and made a razor thin fight of it. Ive often wondered how things might have been different had he faced Liston with two good hands.

That fight was not close. And Liston at his peak was not slow . . slow relative to Machen and Clay, who had very fast hands, but he possessed top shelf athleticism and his head movement was up there with anybody's.

[dempseyfire]

Sonny Boy was less than impressive on the big-stage on February 23, 1960.

Sonny, who claimed to be {Age 26}, lumbered his way to a TKO 8 over
Howard 'Honey Boy' King at the Auditorium in Miami Beach.

The 6' 1" 212 lb. Philadelphia Heavyweight found a very difficult opponent
in the 32 year-old 6' 2" 195 lb. Reno, Nevada 'Honey Boy', who used
snappy punches to go along with a darting-style to out-smart the slow
moving slugger.

Prime Sonny, was not 'Top Shelf'.

Wow, this shows Liston was over-rated all the time!

What crap . . Liston still stopped the guy. Show me any fighter in history who never had an off-night vs an inferior opponent but still won. Good luck b/c you won't find any.

[funso banjo baby]

not interested. go away

ur dull

Then stop stalking him and offer something of use. Your only posts in here are trolling, get a life.

you follow me around

u look for my name and you open your legs

ur livid that i criticize deontay wilder's management

and now ive been sticking up for muhammed ali

wow...what an outrageous thing for someone to do on a boxing website :(

no wonder your so angry

[klompton]

go watch the liston machen fight, score it, and come back here telling me a one handed machen didnt make ut close.

Then go watch liston in his supposed prime against guys like williams etc and tell him wasnt ponderous.

saad you and il douche should just get a room. youre half a troll yourself. i cant remember the last time you offered anything of substance here. you say people should ignore il duce because hes ridiculous and then bash anyone who calls him out on it. its a public forum if the guy is going to outright lie and make up shit im going to call him out on it. i couldnt care less if you dont like it.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

.

saad you and il douche should just get a room. youre half a troll yourself. i cant remember the last time you offered anything of substance here. you say people should ignore il duce because hes ridiculous and then bash anyone who calls him out on it. its a public forum if the guy is going to outright lie and make up poo im going to call him out on it. i couldnt care less if you dont like it.

You're little more than a liar and a half troll yourself. You and Funso should just get a room, the next time I see a post from you that isn't covered in estrogen will be the first.

I never told you not to call him on it and I never said you have to start threads. What's the matter book boy? You too lazy to use actual statements? You're all over Il Duce with facts, why the need to invent complete bullshit about me? If half of my posts have substance, that certainly is a higher percentage than yours. But thanks for the fan mail.

[dberry]

not interested. go away

ur dull

Then stop stalking him and offer something of use. Your only posts in here are trolling, get a life.

His fucken posts in the Aussie forum were pure troll as well. Il Duce at least puts forward an oppinion, and sometimes a different view of history without rose tinted glasses. He seems to have an indepth boxing knowlage, sometimes I mighten agree with his version of history, but it gives me food for thought as who's to say he is wrong? He just seems matter of fact to me.

[dempseyfire]

go watch the liston machen fight, score it, and come back here telling me a one handed machen didnt make ut close.

.

I've watched the fight numerous times. Liston outlands and outworks Machen in at least 8 of the 12 rounds. Machen fought a spoiler's fight pretty much the entire bout and was too preoccupied with Liston's jab in his face to mount an effective offense. The only reason scorecards were within 3-4 points was due to Sonny losing 3 points for low blows.

[fatcity69]

Its funny how an interesting thread posted by Ezzard can be hijacked, and filled up by more fantastic observations by Le Douche, and this seems to be all nice and fine with certain people on here. Yet if one is to come into this forum and give a point of view about this situation one is accused of acting 'hatefully' and the aforementioned thread is closed down. My it is great to see that free speech is all well and dandy in here if your talking complete bollxx and yet if you come in and give a dissenting voice to the status Quo in here then you are offending people.

Regarding Machen vs Liston I have it on good account that Machen had his arm ripped off from his shoulder by a particularly ferocious neighbours poodle just six weeks prior to the Liston fight. Yes they were able to sew it back on and cover the resulting scar with makeup but alas Eddie was not quite 100% for the fight!. Some guys get all the breaks I guess.