It perplesxs me the way some people see the Naz Barrera fight. Without a doubt Barrera outboxed him, but to use that fight as an objective and ultimate example of Hamed's abilties is wrong. Hamed was not a world champion for no reason, he was massively skilled with great reflexes and ridiculous power stemming from those tree trunk legs of his.
The Barrera night he looked nervous (refusing to somersault over the ropes), was majorley off balance for the first time in his life (with his bending and gymnastic style he needed to me within milimetres of accuracy to avoid being hit), was being trained by a fragile coaching team (stange relationship with Steward) and was being told to look for the knockout for a lot of the fight.
Whether you see these as genuine factors or not, one thing is telling, that Naz never got knocked out. If he so bad, such a worthless investment, someone who is ordinary beyond belief, a fighter whom will be quashed by journeymen and a pretender whom was found out by Barrera, why did Barrera not emphatically detroy him with a knockdown?
Like I said, Barrera won the fight easily and proved himself the better boxer, but I do not think it was as one sided and clear cut as many say. Hamed did have the ability to box better, did have tremendous strength and as proven, had a granite chin, so if he had managed to box just even a little better, the story could have been different. Many will disagree but it is madness to discredit Hamed's achievements and ability cos of that one fight.
Naz & Barrera
Mate, I think many reasonable people will agree with you. But it's too easy for some to just write-off Hamed's career after that fight happened.
Easy to say in retrospect, but I think Hamed should have taken a break for a few months, sorted his head out and then sorted the team around him out and gone back to the drawing board. There's no reason that he couldn't have improved and gone on to dominate that weight division again, not to say he definitely would have, but to come back now... well I dont think he will get back to where he was, let alone get better, as he is suggesting.
We shall see.
Easy to say in retrospect, but I think Hamed should have taken a break for a few months, sorted his head out and then sorted the team around him out and gone back to the drawing board. There's no reason that he couldn't have improved and gone on to dominate that weight division again, not to say he definitely would have, but to come back now... well I dont think he will get back to where he was, let alone get better, as he is suggesting.
We shall see.
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JimmyJamJerusalem
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 501
- Joined: 14 Apr 2002, 20:00
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Podmore_Birmingham
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 950
- Joined: 18 Oct 2005, 09:38
It's a source of frustration when I argue about him with Americans. I'm with Tom in that I saw barrera as the winner but not by the street that the gap has become over time. On top of which the whole slamming Hamed into the buckle thing has become a source of frivolity as opposed to the major foul that it was. People have been DQed for worse.
But the main thing is that this was naseem without Ingle. Take Ingle away from his fighters and nobody can coach them in the same style. Ingle moulded Hamed and then Hamed decided he could do better with an ineffectual yes-man in Suarez and a part-timer who was never there in Steward. This was palpably not the best Hamed.
Not to take away from Barrera. I thought he won, I didn't like the foul but I'd have been sorry to see him kicked out for it. But he beat a less good version of Hamed and he did it by a wider margin with every passing year.
It's an American extension of the dislike of British fighters.
But the main thing is that this was naseem without Ingle. Take Ingle away from his fighters and nobody can coach them in the same style. Ingle moulded Hamed and then Hamed decided he could do better with an ineffectual yes-man in Suarez and a part-timer who was never there in Steward. This was palpably not the best Hamed.
Not to take away from Barrera. I thought he won, I didn't like the foul but I'd have been sorry to see him kicked out for it. But he beat a less good version of Hamed and he did it by a wider margin with every passing year.
It's an American extension of the dislike of British fighters.
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Slapsie Maxie
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 794
- Joined: 22 Jun 2004, 08:22
Hamed did lose the fight, no doubt, but he wasn't shut out by any means. However, you guys see the card you need to remember Barrera lost a point in the 12th for slapping the full nelson on Hamed. That point makes the fight look even worse. Also, Hamed was a world reknown power puncher, no one will ever EVER question that, yet he landed very vey few good shots on Barrera and got beat at his own game taking a good amount of power shots. He definitely got outclassed in the ring that night because Barrera wasn't running from him or jab and hugging him (a la Ruiz), but he stood there with insanely good defense that night and didn't give a thing to Hamed. I won't knock Hamed cuz he's British, shoot, I loved hearing "All is the greatest" in his Sheffield accent before the fight. But, he did get outclassed and outboxed that night.
Hamed made it easy. He spent all night looking for the power shot. Hamed grew up setting up power shots with combinations. He barely threw a combination all night against Barrera. Well, comparatively anyway. All his big punches were hugely telegraphed.
Judging hamed on this show does him a disservice, but he got himself into the mess.
Hamed + Ingle = potentially tremendous
(Hamed - Ingle) + (Suarez + (Manny * 20%)) = ordinary boxer with wasted talent
Judging hamed on this show does him a disservice, but he got himself into the mess.
Hamed + Ingle = potentially tremendous
(Hamed - Ingle) + (Suarez + (Manny * 20%)) = ordinary boxer with wasted talent
Alot of the threads you read now make this fight out to be a massacre. As if Hamed was beaten from pillar to post. Definitely not the case. I would like to ask these people what they consider the Pac-man Barrera fight? Now that was a onesided affair.Slapsie Maxie wrote:Beautifully put.Coconut wrote:and he did it by a wider margin with every passing year.
No way outclassed. beaten well and by a better man on the night, but outclassed is part of the revisionism I mentioned on the other Hamed thread
Slapsie
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JimmyJamJerusalem
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 501
- Joined: 14 Apr 2002, 20:00
But not the affair in question, so a pointless statement.RobD wrote:Alot of the threads you read now make this fight out to be a massacre. As if Hamed was beaten from pillar to post. Definitely not the case. I would like to ask these people what they consider the Pac-man Barrera fight? Now that was a onesided affair.Slapsie Maxie wrote:Beautifully put.Coconut wrote:and he did it by a wider margin with every passing year.
No way outclassed. beaten well and by a better man on the night, but outclassed is part of the revisionism I mentioned on the other Hamed thread
Slapsie
Hamed was taken to school face it. His style was exposed, and an example was made that the most effective boxing style is a CORRECT style. Not a flashy Ingle style. Barrera by a mile!!
I am Naz's biggest fan - shit, he was the reason why I now watch the sport obsessively.
Naz was well beaten that night that there is no doubt.
However, the fight has been used by Naz haters to all of a sudden portray the guy as a fraud.
Listen, and I have done this to death - Naz was a great champion, he won 3 belts, beat many good fighters and lost to a hall of famer who had a good night and is a great great fighter.
the 95/97 version of Naz was the best (round about the cabrera, badillo fights) but unfortunately bravdo took over and he lost focus - the suarez/steward Naz was just a good fighter with power.
People knock naz's opponents yet the same people conveniently forget that someone like Hopkins has fought many a bum (fornicate me Robbie Allen 3 times!!).
Listen, the comeback, if and its huge if Naz can bury the ego a little employ a strong trainer and get fit (Jimmy Mac or Billy Graham for me) and maybe lose some of the family in the corner then I believe he can come back.
To me if Naz comes back and wins a world title and simply goes in with a Barrera or a Morales then he will have all the respect in the world - hell, any British fan should be looking forward to it - and the americans, well theres someone else non american to hate.
Regards
Kevin aka wrists
Naz was well beaten that night that there is no doubt.
However, the fight has been used by Naz haters to all of a sudden portray the guy as a fraud.
Listen, and I have done this to death - Naz was a great champion, he won 3 belts, beat many good fighters and lost to a hall of famer who had a good night and is a great great fighter.
the 95/97 version of Naz was the best (round about the cabrera, badillo fights) but unfortunately bravdo took over and he lost focus - the suarez/steward Naz was just a good fighter with power.
People knock naz's opponents yet the same people conveniently forget that someone like Hopkins has fought many a bum (fornicate me Robbie Allen 3 times!!).
Listen, the comeback, if and its huge if Naz can bury the ego a little employ a strong trainer and get fit (Jimmy Mac or Billy Graham for me) and maybe lose some of the family in the corner then I believe he can come back.
To me if Naz comes back and wins a world title and simply goes in with a Barrera or a Morales then he will have all the respect in the world - hell, any British fan should be looking forward to it - and the americans, well theres someone else non american to hate.
Regards
Kevin aka wrists
Well put!Wrists wrote:I am Naz's biggest fan - shit, he was the reason why I now watch the sport obsessively.
Naz was well beaten that night that there is no doubt.
However, the fight has been used by Naz haters to all of a sudden portray the guy as a fraud.
Listen, and I have done this to death - Naz was a great champion, he won 3 belts, beat many good fighters and lost to a hall of famer who had a good night and is a great great fighter.
the 95/97 version of Naz was the best (round about the cabrera, badillo fights) but unfortunately bravdo took over and he lost focus - the suarez/steward Naz was just a good fighter with power.
People knock naz's opponents yet the same people conveniently forget that someone like Hopkins has fought many a bum (fornicate me Robbie Allen 3 times!!).
Listen, the comeback, if and its huge if Naz can bury the ego a little employ a strong trainer and get fit (Jimmy Mac or Billy Graham for me) and maybe lose some of the family in the corner then I believe he can come back.
To me if Naz comes back and wins a world title and simply goes in with a Barrera or a Morales then he will have all the respect in the world - hell, any British fan should be looking forward to it - and the americans, well theres someone else non american to hate.
Regards
Kevin aka wrists
Im not a great fan of Hamed, but I do appreciate what he did was awsome (single punch ko's). However, every level he moved up he was getting exposed more and more, I remember being Hamed exposed qite a bit by Manuel Medina (gumsheild being knocked out), Paul Ingle giving him a few hard rounds as well.
Exposed!!!! - Ermm no, lets look at this
Medina - up in class dropped the guy 4 times, yes got hit (thats boxing) and yes looked in bother (hell many a fighter has struggled with Medina) - fick me he beat the great hope Scott Harrison bout 5 twatting years later!!!
Ingle - good little fighter, Naz dropped hmm let me see 3 times and had 2 bad rounds where he was caught.
Bungu - dropped and KO'd a guy who had not been stopped ever or beaten for god knows how many years.
You see thats my point, people look at Naz getting hit (god forbid) and then say 'ah well he was exposed' - jesus christ he was beaten by MAB fornicating MAB one of the greatest 122-130 lb fighters of all time
Jees give the guy a break
Regards
Kevin aka wrists
Medina - up in class dropped the guy 4 times, yes got hit (thats boxing) and yes looked in bother (hell many a fighter has struggled with Medina) - fick me he beat the great hope Scott Harrison bout 5 twatting years later!!!
Ingle - good little fighter, Naz dropped hmm let me see 3 times and had 2 bad rounds where he was caught.
Bungu - dropped and KO'd a guy who had not been stopped ever or beaten for god knows how many years.
You see thats my point, people look at Naz getting hit (god forbid) and then say 'ah well he was exposed' - jesus christ he was beaten by MAB fornicating MAB one of the greatest 122-130 lb fighters of all time
Jees give the guy a break
Regards
Kevin aka wrists
I know all that, but when he did get hit he was made to look a bit foolish at times (head up in the air), like I said he had awsome power, and though I thought he would never lose a fight until he fought MAB, when he fought Kevin Kelly it was for all to see that he could be hit quite easily.Wrists wrote:Exposed!!!! - Ermm no, lets look at this
Medina - up in class dropped the guy 4 times, yes got hit (thats boxing) and yes looked in bother (hell many a fighter has struggled with Medina) - fick me he beat the great hope Scott Harrison bout 5 twatting years later!!!
Ingle - good little fighter, Naz dropped hmm let me see 3 times and had 2 bad rounds where he was caught.
Bungu - dropped and KO'd a guy who had not been stopped ever or beaten for god knows how many years.
You see thats my point, people look at Naz getting hit (god forbid) and then say 'ah well he was exposed' - jesus christ he was beaten by MAB fornicating MAB one of the greatest 122-130 lb fighters of all time
Jees give the guy a break
Regards
Kevin aka wrists
Last edited by s9s on 10 Nov 2005, 14:09, edited 1 time in total.
Some very inteligent posts on this thread, with realistic and objective analysis of what happened that night. The comparison to pacman and Barerra is a valid one in the sense that it highlights how much more one sided fights can be in comparison to the naz barrera affair, yet these fights are not always taken as conclusive proof that a fighter is pretender.
STEWARD KEEN TO WORK WITH PRINCE
Legendary trainer Emanuel Steward wants to help former charge Naseem Hamed regain his crown as world champion.
Steward, revered throughout boxing for producing world champions such as Thomas Hearns at his renowned Kronk Gym in Detroit and training the likes of Lennox Lewis, has spoken in support of Hamed after many doubted his proposed comeback next year.
The former world featherweight champion, whose career fell apart after defeat by Marco Antonio Barrera in 2001, has reportedly secured a six-fight deal with an American TV network which will see him return to the ring for the first time in three and a half years.
And Steward, who trained the Sheffield fighter between 1999 and 2001 - including co-training Hamed for the ill-fated Barrera defeat - revealed he would relish the chance to guide Hamed back to the top of his profession.
Steward said: "If he asked me to help him I would definitely consider working with him. If we could come up with an agreement on the method of his training I would definitely not pass that up.
"He's one of the nicest kids I ever worked with. I've only got fond memories of him, not anything bad.
"I think he can be world champion again," Steward said.
"He's one of the greatest natural punchers I ever saw in my life and has great co-ordination. It has to be done properly and delicately though. A lot of guys come back but they don't come back the proper way, they rush into it too much. And you have to be careful about the opponents."
Despite the nature of Hamed's prolonged ring absence, Steward revealed the pair are still on good terms.
"I've not spoken to him for about six months. I still have a good relationship with him and his family, we are very close and I'm one of his biggest fans. Only the fight with Barrera we disagreed on the training methods.
"Training properly, he is a dangerous man."
However, Steward believes Hamed must approach any comeback fight very differently to the Barrera contest, when the pair disagreed over training issues. Steward revealed Hamed neglected sparring as 'co-trainer' Oscar Suarez advised him not to.
On Hamed's possible return, Steward said: "It depends on how he's going to approach training. If he does it slowly, it's okay. I don't think he can rush back into it just taking a big fight off the top. He's got to be extremely careful because this is an extremely rough, competitive division at 130lbs (super-featherweight).
"When he did train he trained extremely well, he's a good trainer. For the Barrera fight he was training without sparring because the other trainer had him convinced he didn't have to do that.
"If he trains hard, I don't think it will take him more than three months (to be ready)."
Naseem, now 31, won his first world title at 21 after taking the sport by storm with his unique style, honed at Brendan Ingle's Wincobank Gym in Sheffield.
Steward believes his powerful punching can compensate for the loss of his famous speed and agility due to age.
"He has to be very careful because his style of fighting is what I call a youth style, a guy that comes out, slips, does things. He doesn't think too much, he just does it. If he's not trained properly he could easily be beaten.
"Punching power is one thing that doesn't leave you. He is gifted with that."
© SportingLife.com 2005, all rights reserved.
Legendary trainer Emanuel Steward wants to help former charge Naseem Hamed regain his crown as world champion.
Steward, revered throughout boxing for producing world champions such as Thomas Hearns at his renowned Kronk Gym in Detroit and training the likes of Lennox Lewis, has spoken in support of Hamed after many doubted his proposed comeback next year.
The former world featherweight champion, whose career fell apart after defeat by Marco Antonio Barrera in 2001, has reportedly secured a six-fight deal with an American TV network which will see him return to the ring for the first time in three and a half years.
And Steward, who trained the Sheffield fighter between 1999 and 2001 - including co-training Hamed for the ill-fated Barrera defeat - revealed he would relish the chance to guide Hamed back to the top of his profession.
Steward said: "If he asked me to help him I would definitely consider working with him. If we could come up with an agreement on the method of his training I would definitely not pass that up.
"He's one of the nicest kids I ever worked with. I've only got fond memories of him, not anything bad.
"I think he can be world champion again," Steward said.
"He's one of the greatest natural punchers I ever saw in my life and has great co-ordination. It has to be done properly and delicately though. A lot of guys come back but they don't come back the proper way, they rush into it too much. And you have to be careful about the opponents."
Despite the nature of Hamed's prolonged ring absence, Steward revealed the pair are still on good terms.
"I've not spoken to him for about six months. I still have a good relationship with him and his family, we are very close and I'm one of his biggest fans. Only the fight with Barrera we disagreed on the training methods.
"Training properly, he is a dangerous man."
However, Steward believes Hamed must approach any comeback fight very differently to the Barrera contest, when the pair disagreed over training issues. Steward revealed Hamed neglected sparring as 'co-trainer' Oscar Suarez advised him not to.
On Hamed's possible return, Steward said: "It depends on how he's going to approach training. If he does it slowly, it's okay. I don't think he can rush back into it just taking a big fight off the top. He's got to be extremely careful because this is an extremely rough, competitive division at 130lbs (super-featherweight).
"When he did train he trained extremely well, he's a good trainer. For the Barrera fight he was training without sparring because the other trainer had him convinced he didn't have to do that.
"If he trains hard, I don't think it will take him more than three months (to be ready)."
Naseem, now 31, won his first world title at 21 after taking the sport by storm with his unique style, honed at Brendan Ingle's Wincobank Gym in Sheffield.
Steward believes his powerful punching can compensate for the loss of his famous speed and agility due to age.
"He has to be very careful because his style of fighting is what I call a youth style, a guy that comes out, slips, does things. He doesn't think too much, he just does it. If he's not trained properly he could easily be beaten.
"Punching power is one thing that doesn't leave you. He is gifted with that."
© SportingLife.com 2005, all rights reserved.
My point in mentioning Pac-man was that you don't hear people ranting that Barrera is a fraud etc after that fight. Yet Hamed is for his performance against Barrera.JimmyJamJerusalem wrote:But not the affair in question, so a pointless statement.RobD wrote:Alot of the threads you read now make this fight out to be a massacre. As if Hamed was beaten from pillar to post. Definitely not the case. I would like to ask these people what they consider the Pac-man Barrera fight? Now that was a onesided affair.Slapsie Maxie wrote: Beautifully put.
No way outclassed. beaten well and by a better man on the night, but outclassed is part of the revisionism I mentioned on the other Hamed thread
Slapsie
Hamed was taken to school face it. His style was exposed, and an example was made that the most effective boxing style is a CORRECT style. Not a flashy Ingle style. Barrera by a mile!!
I'm not sure I agree with the revisionist stance but I'll tell you this - although I have no idea how I scored the contest at the time, Hamed did next to nothing throughout the whole contest.
He could have beaten Barrera but gave it all up. I've never been more disappointed by a British performance (though Lloyd Honey getting mullahed by Mark Breland comes close).
As I remember it, Hamed just never showed up.
He could have beaten Barrera but gave it all up. I've never been more disappointed by a British performance (though Lloyd Honey getting mullahed by Mark Breland comes close).
As I remember it, Hamed just never showed up.
I've been saying this for some time. 116-112 (which I think concurred with a couple of the judges) is no massacre, had Hamed won just 2 of the rounds he lost, the fight would have been drawn.Podmore_Birmingham wrote:OUTCLASSED!!! , that would have mean he'd been KO'd or lost 120-108.
He lost 116-112 on my card.
Tom Podmore.
Although Barerra boxed superbly he still clearly had massive respect for Hamed's punching power or he would have converted that dominance into a stoppage win. He knew if he opened up there was a fair chance he would get flattened.