Jeff Thomas wrote:Wow is this boxrec or some daft forum for boxing newbies?
Absolutely mental that anyone is even considering this- you need to educate yourself if you truly believe he's the best based on his very name heavy résume and performances against good but hardly any great opposition.
He's picked and chosen his way to 45-0. Yes there are some brilliant wins in there Manfreddy, Genaro Hernandez, Corrales, Castillo, Hatton but other then that its all a little bit smoke and Mirrors. Great names sure but a long way removed from their primes. Even the lower tier guys like Judah and Shamba Mitchell had ran into moderate form before he decided to take them on.
He downright ducked an unbeaten Cotto, Paul Williams, Margarito, Tszyu, Freitas, prime Mosley and of course Pacquiao. For the record I think he'd have beaten them but not without hiccup. It's ok that now - at this advanced stage in his career that he is suddenly saying 'you choose and I'll fight anybody'. But the divisions around him are laden with mediocre (world class) fighters. It's like Man Utd saying they'll play anybody once Arsenal, Chelsea and City have retired from the league.
Personally to me records mean very little these days. It's easy to pick and choose your way to virtually any record you like if your talented. He's got a fabulous system of fighting. It's very clever and means he has an answer for almost anything his opponent does, but you've got to remember who he is fighting. These aren't Durans, Benitez's or Hearns' they are a series of mostly good not great fighters. I always try and imagine the fighters your comparing the subject with and how they would have got on in the same matches.
Are we in any doubt that Leonard, Duran and co would have barely lost a round on route to 45-0 against the same men.
He is a great but for me he sits somewhere around the same place as the earlier mentioned Felix Trinidad. Probably above Don Curry head to head and certainly legacy wise. Before you come back and say oh well it's different eras ask yourself this. Would he have beaten Winky Wright who was a tremendous fighter not generally considered an ATG? I have my doubts.
Deserter wrote:Just a couple of things I'll throw into the debate:
1) Is there anyone out there who believes that the likes of SRR, SRL, Hearns, Duran etc would have been unable to stay unbeaten if they were facing the same opponents Floyd has fought? If so, who would they have lost to.
2) Relating to the above, the one thing we all know is that boxing is about levels - we've seen guys who looked a million dollars at a certain level (e.g. British and European) only to come apart or struggle as soon as they move up to the next level. Floyd looks amazing against the calibre of opponents he's been facing, but I don't understand why people are assuming that based on that he'll be able to do exactly the same against fighters of the calibre i've listed above. Particularly as he struggled a bit against a past-his-best De La Hoya, who was in no way, shape or form, up there with the aforementioned guys. The idea of him being able to do cute shoulder rolls and just pot-shot on the jab against SRL, for example, is madness. Canelo wouldn't have made it past 6 with so many of those legends.
Floyd's the greatest of our era, but I just can't subscribe to the GOAT theory as he's never faced the level of opponent to really allow him to justify that claim.
These posts are bang on the money.
For me, for him to be in the running for even top 20 of all time, in addition to his existing achievements he would have had to:
beat Tszyu when they were both at 140 and the fight could/should have happened.
beat Pacquaio at any of the points it should have happened.
Actually beat Castillo rather than get a gift decision, OR beat him more convincingly in the rematch.
beat a better version of Cotto (ie, when it should have happened).
Probably beat someone bigger and considered a threat when he had a chance (EG, Margarito/Williams)
Finish his career beating a recognised top middleweight (If Floyd sticks around for a couple of years this might turn out to be GGG).
In the absence of an era in which the competition was as brutal as SRL/Hearns/Duran/Hagler etc, these would have been the standards required. If Floyd had had some actual peers on his level and fought all of them he'd be forgiven some losses in the same way as all the greats have been. I can definitely imagine Aaron Pryor beating Floyd at 140.
