Joe Louis vs.............

Sherlock · Post by **Sherlock** » 10 Nov 2005, 07:47

Cojimar 1945 wrote:I don't think the size difference between Louis opponnents and those of Lewis can be ignored. It seems logical that larger heavyweights could hit harder than much smaller ones.

I don't see why. Louis beat 6'6 Buddy Baer and the 250 pound Abe Simon, the 260 lb Carnera, just as big in weight and height as Lewis's opponents. If anything, guys like Louis and Dempsey destroyed the big giants and struggled with the lighter guys like Conn and Farr. What, are guys that are the same height or weight in the 30's not as strong as their equals of today? If boxing was all about strength, then the guys in the strongmen competitions should be heavyweight champs.

theone · Post by **theone** » 10 Nov 2005, 09:45

ike who?? and i mean in walcotts prime not the malnourished, no traaining, take fights on 3 days notice far from prime walcott. only guys u can say are louis and marciano who are both top 5 greatest heavyweight punchers all time, louis being # 1

Maxim, Ray and Layne landed enough punches to beat him during his so called prime. Rahman was better than all three of these guys and hit alot harder to boot.

I don't see why. Louis beat 6'6 Buddy Baer and the 250 pound Abe Simon, the 260 lb Carnera, just as big in weight and height as Lewis's opponents.

watch fight films of those big guys you mentioned fighting. Very little to no boxing skill to speak off.

If boxing was all about strength, then the guys in the strongmen competitions should be heavyweight champs.

Thats the point. Most big fighters from the past only had strenght going for them. Big fighter of later years like foreman and Lewis have the strenght power and skill.

Charles, Ray, Tiger Joe Fox? These guys forgot more about boxing then Hasim Rahman ever knew . .

Fox and Ray? Besides both beating Walcott, the only things they ever accomplished was beating alot of second raters. Ray's win over Charles was a disgraceful robbery. Do you seriously beleive Ray and Fox were better than Rahman or are you just saying that to back up your point?

Are you suggesting Foreman would outbox Louis and win a decision?

Nope. I'm suggesting that Louis would be lucky to make it into the fourth round.

evndrbsn · Post by **evndrbsn** » 10 Nov 2005, 09:47

dempseyfire wrote:
Your saying Foreman would be too big and strong, but mentioning the fact that Abe Simon, a man bigger and on the same level strength-wise, is a bad example.

So now you are suggesting that Simon was Foreman's equal in power punching? That is the funniest thing I heard all day. Thanks for the laugh.

Maybe Foreman's handlers were dubbing him the second coming of Abe Simon?

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 10 Nov 2005, 12:58

elmer ray hit harder than hasim rahman

evndrbsn · Post by **evndrbsn** » 10 Nov 2005, 13:06

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:elmer ray hit harder than hasim rahman

But could he hit harder than Clubber Lang?

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 10 Nov 2005, 13:16

theone wrote:
ike who?? and i mean in walcotts prime not the malnourished, no traaining, take fights on 3 days notice far from prime walcott. only guys u can say are louis and marciano who are both top 5 greatest heavyweight punchers all time, louis being # 1
Maxim, Ray and Layne landed enough punches to beat him during his so called prime. Rahman was better than all three of these guys and hit alot harder to boot.

I don't see why. Louis beat 6'6 Buddy Baer and the 250 pound Abe Simon, the 260 lb Carnera, just as big in weight and height as Lewis's opponents.
watch fight films of those big guys you mentioned fighting. Very little to no boxing skill to speak off.
If boxing was all about strength, then the guys in the strongmen competitions should be heavyweight champs.
Thats the point. Most big fighters from the past only had strenght going for them. Big fighter of later years like foreman and Lewis have the strenght power and skill.

Charles, Ray, Tiger Joe Fox? These guys forgot more about boxing then Hasim Rahman ever knew . .
Fox and Ray? Besides both beating Walcott, the only things they ever accomplished was beating alot of second raters. Ray's win over Charles was a disgraceful robbery. Do you seriously beleive Ray and Fox were better than Rahman or are you just saying that to back up your point?

Are you suggesting Foreman would outbox Louis and win a decision?
Nope. I'm suggesting that Louis would be lucky to make it into the fourth round.

If you actually knew about these actual fights, you'd know that both the Ray and Layne losses were considered clear robberies, and the Maxim fight was def. not in Charles's prime (and also an extreamly close fight) Good job on looking at the records of Fox and then chipping in your 2 cents . . .Fox was an excellent fighter who was a sharp puncher and extreamly awkward to face.
Baer and Simon, in terms of boxing skill, were as skilled as Foreman was. Foreman was a better athlete and had a better jab, but he could, and often, got as sloppy as they got. And Baer at least knew the proper defensive stance.
I never said Simon punched as hard as (even though Buddy Baer's right hand is up there with any Foreman punch) George, but in terms of body strength, Simon was in his league. Any boxer will tell you the difficulty of facing a large guy is the weight they put on you in the clinches and up close. Simon was leaning and wrestling with Louis all night, but that didn't affect Joe's ability to KTFO.

evndrbsn · Post by **evndrbsn** » 10 Nov 2005, 13:30

dempseyfire wrote: I never said Simon punched as hard as (even though Buddy Baer's right hand is up there with any Foreman punch) George, but in terms of body strength, Simon was in his league. Any boxer will tell you the difficulty of facing a large guy is the weight they put on you in the clinches and up close.

Simon was not in George's league in any department. Basically, your argument is that any bulky heavyweight is as powerful (in body strength) as fighters who are smaller just because they are bigger. That is stupid. Example: Evander Holyfield, not exactly a powerful heavyweight, was much stronger than Lennox Lewis strength wise (body strength, as you say). Holyfield bullied Lewis at times and was much smaller than Lewis in every facet. Holyfield made a career of pushing/muscling around heavier fighters, such as Tyson in the first fight, Bowe in the second fight, Lennox Lewis in both fights (although he was clearly outboxed the first time), and pretty much every other time he fought a heavier guy. A guy being able to put his larger weight on a boxer and lay on him in clinches to where him out is not using strength. They are using body weight. There is a big difference.

theone · Post by **theone** » 10 Nov 2005, 13:41

you actually knew about these actual fights, you'd know that both the Ray and Layne losses were considered clear robberies

Give me a break. Ray won a close fight , hardly a robbery. Layne defeated Walcott clearly.

Good job on looking at the records of Fox and then chipping in your 2 cents . . .Fox was an excellent fighter who was a sharp puncher and extreamly awkward to face.

You are making these fighter out to be much more than they actually were just to back up your point. Rahman won the heavyweight title from Lewis. His reign was brief, but a great accopmplishment regardless. What makes Fox and ray so impressive? Layne lost most of his 17 losses in his prime. Fox never accomplished anything besides beating Walcott. Name one quality heavyweight that Ray knocked out.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 10 Nov 2005, 14:25

theone wrote:Big fighter of later years like foreman and Lewis have the strenght power and skill.

George was not actually a "giant" HW as you seem to always refer. At his best he was 6-3 220, hardly much bigger than Joe Louis at his best. On the other hand, Lennox was 6-5 and 235-240, which I would call a large "modern" HW. So based on your logic of evolving skill and ever increasing size, you probably would have LL toying with the smaller, sometimes crude, Foreman?

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 10 Nov 2005, 14:55

Decagon wrote:
theone wrote:Maxim, Ray and Layne landed enough punches to beat him during his so called prime. Rahman was better than all three of these guys and hit alot harder to boot.
Joey Maxim wouldn't have lost to John Ruiz.

no way, maxim would school ruiz.

besides walcott won there next two fights, knocking maxim down in the process.

- and dont tell me ruiz beats or is competitive joe louis, rocky marciano, ezzard charles

- bivins and ray would beat ruiz

theone · Post by **theone** » 10 Nov 2005, 15:00

Lennox was 6-5 and 235-240, which I would call a large "modern" HW. So based on your logic of evolving skill and ever increasing size, you probably would have LL toying with the smaller, sometimes crude, Foreman?

Nope. I believe Foreman would have knocked Lewis out. foreman's power was alot harder than man his size. Alot of fighters in his area were around his size but his strenght and power were obviously much superior. His ram rod jab and chin would prevent him from getting knocked out against Lewis. Foreman didnt just shuffle in flatfooted, he had good mobilty when he had too. Foremans stamina is also vastly underrated. Against Ali and Young he was exhausted from throwing power punches for 8 and 12 rounds in over a hundred degree temperatures.
Foreman was a much better fighter than Simon, Baer or Canera, which was the original point of my comment. These guys fought like frankenstien while george had an awesome jab and very good lateral movement at his peak. he used his massivly powerful arms to pary punches and to keep fighters off balance. He threw unorthdox and surprise punches to put fighters out.

At his best he was 6-3 220, hardly much bigger than Joe Louis at his best.

I think the over 18 pounds difference was alot. i beleive Joe punched hard enough to hurt George, but Georges shot would do alot more damage to Joe. Joe was stunned and dropped by a lot smaller fighters who did not possess Georges strenght power or chin. Joe, who was no dancer, would have to come inside to try and do damage and that would spell his doom in this fight.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 10 Nov 2005, 15:12

..i haven't read any of the posts here because i already have all the information i need to form my opinion.

however it had occured to me that asli might be one of the names listed, so i'll modify my "louis by kayo" statement to louis probably by decision as ali would be ver hard to kayo...great chin and didn't cut easily.

theone · Post by **theone** » 10 Nov 2005, 15:14

no way, maxim would school ruiz.

Maxim wouldnt school any of the top ten heavyweights today. The fact that he beat Walcott goes to show how inconsistant Jersey Joe was. Maxim was a great lightheavyweight. What good Heavyweight, besides Walcott and a young Patterson in an eight rounder, did he every beat? He sure lost to alot of mediocre ones.

bivins and ray would beat ruiz

Bivins at his best...maybe. Ray was even more garbage than Ruiz.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 10 Nov 2005, 15:37

theone wrote:
no way, maxim would school ruiz.
Maxim wouldnt school any of the top ten heavyweights today. The fact that he beat Walcott goes to show how inconsistant Jersey Joe was. Maxim was a great lightheavyweight. What good Heavyweight, besides Walcott and a young Patterson in an eight rounder, did he every beat? He sure lost to alot of mediocre ones.

bivins and ray would beat ruiz
Bivins at his best...maybe. Ray was even more garbage than Ruiz.

walcott beat a PEAK BIVINS. bivins was only 26 and was the # 1 contender who hadnt lossed in 3 years!!!

- ray was better than ruiz

- walcott at his peak makes ruiz look like a little school girl

Rory McCloskey · Post by **Rory McCloskey** » 10 Nov 2005, 15:55

J-C wrote:
Rory McCloskey wrote:.he(lewis) lost to rock and vitali..
No he didn't,

whether he is overrated or not he did not lose to Vitali.

I'm not trying to pick an arguement at all mate. Vitali fought a good fight vs Lewis and took some big shots...but he still lost on cuts. At the time of stoppage there were six rounds left nobody can say what would have happend.

okay okay..your right there man. i dunno where that came from on my part..IMO vitali was winning steadily on cards and it was just unfortunate to have the cuts, but you are correct, anything coul have happened

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 10 Nov 2005, 16:55

theone wrote:
no way, maxim would school ruiz.
Maxim wouldnt school any of the top ten heavyweights today. The fact that he beat Walcott goes to show how inconsistant Jersey Joe was. Maxim was a great lightheavyweight. What good Heavyweight, besides Walcott and a young Patterson in an eight rounder, did he every beat? He sure lost to alot of mediocre ones.

bivins and ray would beat ruiz
Bivins at his best...maybe. Ray was even more garbage than Ruiz.

I won't even reply to your statements anymore b/c you clearly don't know what you are talking about. At least admit you don't know something instead of inventing history . . . .

theone · Post by **theone** » 10 Nov 2005, 17:56

I won't even reply to your statements anymore b/c you clearly don't know what you are talking about. At least admit you don't know something instead of inventing history . . .

You are the one re-inventing history. The Ray and Layne fights were clear robberies against walcott? Fox and Ray were better fighters than Rahman?

Also Maxim lost to Joe Kahut, Johnny Flynn, Phil Muscata, and John Thomas. A pretty mediocre bunch of heavyweights when they beat Maxim. What exactly am I inventing?

Sherlock · Post by **Sherlock** » 10 Nov 2005, 19:10

theone wrote: Fox and Ray were better fighters than Rahman?

What the hell has Rahman done besides kayo Lewis? Invent an open armed defensive style to actually make an easier to be hit? Lose to John Ruiz? Lose to an ancient Holyfield? Rahman has one key victory and the rest are over second or third tier heavys.

theone · Post by **theone** » 10 Nov 2005, 19:22

What the hell has Rahman done besides kayo Lewis? Invent an open armed defensive style to actually make an easier to be hit? Lose to John Ruiz? Lose to an ancient Holyfield? Rahman has one key victory and the rest are over second or third tier heavys.

The Lewis victory should be enough against fighters like Fox and Ray, But victories over Obed sullivan, Corrie Sanders, Monte Barrett and two good showings against David Tua is ALOT more impressive than either of those two.

Cojimar 1945 · Post by **Cojimar 1945** » 10 Nov 2005, 20:04

My point is that Lennox Lewis seems to have faced far more big heavyweights than Joe Louis did. Additionally, the bigger heavyweights of Lewis' era seem more dominant over smaller heavies than those of Louis's era.

Joe Louis vs.............

Re: punching power

size