Il Duce- Please give me your top ten heavyweights in order

[SaadOffTheDeck]

That certainly isn't true, there is the actual second where you regain your senses. The seconds Tony Weeks gave Corrales absolutely kept him from a stoppage loss. Not that I think Cooper would have won, but to say 60 & 66 are the same is off base.

[gilgamesh]

Let's see,

Again, just what top fighter did Cassius Clay beat, before he fought Sonny Liston........

What top fighter did George Foreman defeat before he fought Joe Frazier.....

What top fighter did Joe Frazier defeat before he won the 'vacant' Title over Buster Mathis.....

C.mon..........Jack Dempsey would have been their toughest opponent.......

What does that have to do with anything? If Liston was the GOAT's first "big' fight it makes the win even more spectacular. Same logic applies to Big George and Smokin Joe.

I like Dempsey . He seemed like a cool fella. But he lacks the resume of Muhammad Ali. He defeated seven IBHOF inductees, four Olympic Gold medalists, and three top ten all time greats. It doesn't get any better than that.

It has nothing to do with anything and doesn't diminish the victories in the slightest, he's just grasping at straws.

[gilgamesh]

The 'feeling' for Jack Dempsey throughout the 'Sporting World' during his
time was greater than any Boxer, ever.

And Jack had to share the spotlight with Babe Ruth.

Cassius Clay was regarded as a 'clown' and 'hype job' in 1963, and both of
his bouts with Sonny Liston were dismissed by many as 'frauds' or a 'hoax'.

During is 'first reign' he was a very good fighter over strictly 'B-List' mediocrity.

Cassius Clay never sent that type of 'awestruck' buzz through the air.

That was then, this is now. With their careers completely over and written in the history books. Ali has proven himself a superior fighter to Dempsey who took on all comers and beat better opponents than Dempsey.

Popularity in their own time aside, Popularity doesn't measure talent. Ali is more talented and better than Dempsey.

[Tomasino]

Keith Moon,

You're a great drummer, but John Bonham was more consistent.

Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali had the benefit of Television and an intense Public Relations team.

Plus, a third-rate Brooklyn Lawyer turned ABC Broadcaster by the name of 'Howie the Shill' playing
up everything for him.

Don't be sucked in by the 'Ali Syndrome'. Where many found themselves, as they fell into the
'root for me because the other guy is no good trap'.

Jack Dempsey saved Boxing.

Muhammad Ali turned it into a 'circus act', and had no compassion while turning his opponent into a 'prop'.

^

Lot of truth here.

And the very last sentence of Duce's post encapsulates the reason for the resentment (not hate!) I have felt towards Ali.

He humiliated many of his opponents. Belittled them. "Great sportsman", ha.

There was no call to treat a good man like Frazier in the cruel way that he did.

My sentiments exactly. Ali was a complete arsehole. Great fighter though, my number 2 to Louis.

Homocide Henry - Louis hand speed was more than capable of catching Ali. His power would have had Ali clinching all night.

[ThatOne]

It is quite sad that history has rendered its judgement yet some poor misguided souls demur. Well, I guess there are still some who are looking for Saddam's weapons of mass destruction.

[ThatOne]

Then I moved on to Ken Norton, who shared a poignant memory.

“When it counted most,” Norton reminisced, “Ali was there for me. In 1986, I was in a bad car accident. I was unconscious for I don’t know how long. My right side was paralyzed; my skull was fractured; I had a broken leg, a broken jaw. The doctors said I might never walk again. For a while, they thought I might not ever even be able to talk. I don’t remember much about my first few months in the hospital. But one thing I do remember is, after I was hurt, Ali was one of the first people to visit me. At that point, I wasn’t sure whether I wanted to live or die. That’s how bad I was hurt. Like I said, there’s a lot I don’t remember. But I remember looking up, and there was this crazy man standing by my bed. It was Ali, and he was doing magic tricks for me. He made a handkerchief disappear; he levitated. I said to myself, if he does one more awful trick, I’m gonna get well just so I can kill him. But Ali was there, and his being there helped me. So I don’t want to be remembered as the man who broke Muhammad Ali’s jaw. I just want to be remembered as a man who fought three close competitive fights with Ali and became his friend when the fighting was over

[p4p1]

ThatLne don't be silly it's just a hype job people can't learn from their mistakes and grow as a person.

[gilgamesh]

Then I moved on to Ken Norton, who shared a poignant memory.

“When it counted most,” Norton reminisced, “Ali was there for me. In 1986, I was in a bad car accident. I was unconscious for I don’t know how long. My right side was paralyzed; my skull was fractured; I had a broken leg, a broken jaw. The doctors said I might never walk again. For a while, they thought I might not ever even be able to talk. I don’t remember much about my first few months in the hospital. But one thing I do remember is, after I was hurt, Ali was one of the first people to visit me. At that point, I wasn’t sure whether I wanted to live or die. That’s how bad I was hurt. Like I said, there’s a lot I don’t remember. But I remember looking up, and there was this crazy man standing by my bed. It was Ali, and he was doing magic tricks for me. He made a handkerchief disappear; he levitated. I said to myself, if he does one more awful trick, I’m gonna get well just so I can kill him. But Ali was there, and his being there helped me. So I don’t want to be remembered as the man who broke Muhammad Ali’s jaw. I just want to be remembered as a man who fought three close competitive fights with Ali and became his friend when the fighting was over

Cool story. Doubt you get a response from Il Duce on this one, it goes too strongly against his "Ali was a selfish dick" stance.

[evrenb]

Then I moved on to Ken Norton, who shared a poignant memory.

“When it counted most,” Norton reminisced, “Ali was there for me. In 1986, I was in a bad car accident. I was unconscious for I don’t know how long. My right side was paralyzed; my skull was fractured; I had a broken leg, a broken jaw. The doctors said I might never walk again. For a while, they thought I might not ever even be able to talk. I don’t remember much about my first few months in the hospital. But one thing I do remember is, after I was hurt, Ali was one of the first people to visit me. At that point, I wasn’t sure whether I wanted to live or die. That’s how bad I was hurt. Like I said, there’s a lot I don’t remember. But I remember looking up, and there was this crazy man standing by my bed. It was Ali, and he was doing magic tricks for me. He made a handkerchief disappear; he levitated. I said to myself, if he does one more awful trick, I’m gonna get well just so I can kill him. But Ali was there, and his being there helped me. So I don’t want to be remembered as the man who broke Muhammad Ali’s jaw. I just want to be remembered as a man who fought three close competitive fights with Ali and became his friend when the fighting was over

Beautiful story....lets not forget how many ali helped get rich when they fought him...he knew how to promote...i like the story about how he tried to come up with ideas when tickets were selling slow for the mathis fight...he concocted 'a great plan' where his entourage would put word out to the press that he had.been kidnapped...the idea seemed a good one until.someone pointed out that if he had been kidnapped there would be no fight! Lol...at least he tried....

[gilgamesh]

Then I moved on to Ken Norton, who shared a poignant memory.

“When it counted most,” Norton reminisced, “Ali was there for me. In 1986, I was in a bad car accident. I was unconscious for I don’t know how long. My right side was paralyzed; my skull was fractured; I had a broken leg, a broken jaw. The doctors said I might never walk again. For a while, they thought I might not ever even be able to talk. I don’t remember much about my first few months in the hospital. But one thing I do remember is, after I was hurt, Ali was one of the first people to visit me. At that point, I wasn’t sure whether I wanted to live or die. That’s how bad I was hurt. Like I said, there’s a lot I don’t remember. But I remember looking up, and there was this crazy man standing by my bed. It was Ali, and he was doing magic tricks for me. He made a handkerchief disappear; he levitated. I said to myself, if he does one more awful trick, I’m gonna get well just so I can kill him. But Ali was there, and his being there helped me. So I don’t want to be remembered as the man who broke Muhammad Ali’s jaw. I just want to be remembered as a man who fought three close competitive fights with Ali and became his friend when the fighting was over

Beautiful story....lets not forget how many ali helped get rich when they fought him...he knew how to promote...i like the story about how he tried to come up with ideas when tickets were selling slow for the mathis fight...he concocted 'a great plan' where his entourage would put word out to the press that he had.been kidnapped...the idea seemed a good one until.someone pointed out that if he had been kidnapped there would be no fight! Lol...at least he tried....

In the book "Facing Ali", Chuck Wepner said Ali tried to convince during commercial breaks on a talk show to call him a "N*gger" all for ratings.

Wepner didn't go along with it luckily.

[gilgamesh]

I won't bother indulging your Ali comments any further, you don't even have the guts to stand by your own comments. You always use semantics to act like you meant something other than what you clearly meant.

You sit there and belittle Ali and don't even admit that that's what you're doing.

[ThatOne]

Then I moved on to Ken Norton, who shared a poignant memory.

“When it counted most,” Norton reminisced, “Ali was there for me. In 1986, I was in a bad car accident. I was unconscious for I don’t know how long. My right side was paralyzed; my skull was fractured; I had a broken leg, a broken jaw. The doctors said I might never walk again. For a while, they thought I might not ever even be able to talk. I don’t remember much about my first few months in the hospital. But one thing I do remember is, after I was hurt, Ali was one of the first people to visit me. At that point, I wasn’t sure whether I wanted to live or die. That’s how bad I was hurt. Like I said, there’s a lot I don’t remember. But I remember looking up, and there was this crazy man standing by my bed. It was Ali, and he was doing magic tricks for me. He made a handkerchief disappear; he levitated. I said to myself, if he does one more awful trick, I’m gonna get well just so I can kill him. But Ali was there, and his being there helped me. So I don’t want to be remembered as the man who broke Muhammad Ali’s jaw. I just want to be remembered as a man who fought three close competitive fights with Ali and became his friend when the fighting was over

Beautiful story....lets not forget how many ali helped get rich when they fought him...he knew how to promote...i like the story about how he tried to come up with ideas when tickets were selling slow for the mathis fight...he concocted 'a great plan' where his entourage would put word out to the press that he had.been kidnapped...the idea seemed a good one until.someone pointed out that if he had been kidnapped there would be no fight! Lol...at least he tried....

In the book "Facing Ali", Chuck Wepner said Ali tried to convince during commercial breaks on a talk show to call him a "N*gger" all for ratings.

Wepner didn't go along with it luckily.

Ha. Wepner said "I can't do that, champ. I have black friends and black sparring partners that will never forgive me."

Before the fight Wepner bought his wife a negligee and said she can wear it when she sleeps with the champ Wepner said his wife asked him if she would be sleeping with Ali.

[ThatOne]

The relationship between Ali and Patterson in perspective:


"Shortly after the fight, Patterson asked Ali if it was all right if he called him Cassius. Ali smiled and said, "Anytime, Floyd." Seven years later, when they fought for the second time, Ali said something to the effect that, yes, Patterson still called him Cassius and Floyd was the only person he allowed to do so."

"As the fight progressed, Floyd became less mobile and it was clear that he was in a lot of pain. This was especially clear to Ali, who expected the referee to stop the fight.

I found a fascinating interview with Ali that Howard Cosell conducted shortly after the fight, in which Ali explained what was going on. He knew that Floyd was hurt, and to his way of thinking, it would bring him no pride to injure a man who was already hurt. So he essentially backed off, waiting for the fight to be stopped. But the ref let it go on. Patterson was perplexed. Floyd said later that he'd never been hit with such soft punches."



"Ali received some criticism for even making the second match with Patterson, who was considered to be washed up. Cosell was the loudest critic, but he learned from Ali -- and had it confirmed by Bob Arum -- that Patterson was in some tax difficulties with the IRS and needed a payday. So Ali helped him out. "

[keithmoonhangover]

My sentiments exactly. Ali was a complete arsehole.

A complete arsehole? He wasn't perfect, but he that bad.

[ThatOne]

Gee Mr. That One,

I'm getting the feeling that Muhammad Ali was some sort of 'High Priest'.

I might convert you yet:

Tunney Hunsacker was Ali’s first professional opponent in 1960. Years later Mrs. Hunsacker recalls that in 1992, Ali, visiting the Hunsackers in West Virginia, noticed a bus filled with disabled children. He promptly boarded the bus and tried to sign autographs for everyone. Stephen Brunt in his book, Facing Ali, quotes Mrs. Hunsacker: “He tried to sign for everyone that wanted an autograph. It was hard for him because he does have the Parkinson’s. But he just enjoyed his day immensely. He didn’t want to leave. And of course people around here are still talking about it.

[evrenb]

It must be hard having your whole life on view ...to the open criticism of douchebag keyboard warriors....Ali brought a lot of entertainment and humour to the world ....was he perfect ? No. Am i perfect? No....he was along with Louis the greatest...

[Tomasino]

My sentiments exactly. Ali was a complete arsehole.

A complete arsehole? He wasn't perfect, but he that bad.

Just my opinion. I get that he was a great fighter and promoter but I still think he was an arsehole. A bit like Sugar Ray Robinson.

[Adamj1987]

i would say rocky fits into right place right time spot, mostly old guys in the division and retired before the new generation like cleveland williams and floyd patterson came along

[keithmoonhangover]

My sentiments exactly. Ali was a complete arsehole.

A complete arsehole? He wasn't perfect, but he that bad.

Just my opinion. I get that he was a great fighter and promoter but I still think he was an arsehole. A bit like Sugar Ray Robinson.

Did you know either of them that well?

[ThatOne]

i would say rocky fits into right place right time spot, mostly old guys in the division and retired before the new generation like cleveland williams and floyd patterson came along

Adam,

A 'Right Place/Right Time' guy has to have a few losses, or least lose his Championship.

Rocky's signature wins were over Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott, Joe Louis, and Archie Moore.

How old were those gentlemen at the time of their matches and how old was Rocky?

[evrenb]

Apparently Ali's opponents in his first reign were 'old men'....lol...what a hipocrite....he just goes on and on watching ali vs holmes turning himself on....comparing Ali to hitler...crikey what an uncalled for reference.

[ThatOne]

Apparently Ali's opponents in his first reign were 'old men'....lol...what a hipocrite....he just goes on and on watching ali vs holmes turning himself on....comparing Ali to hitler...crikey what an uncalled for reference.

Would folks rate Muhammad Ali so highly if he was at the peak of his career and Jerry Quarry, Joe Frazier, Ken Norton, and George Foreman were at the end or near the end of their careers when they fought?

[man]

Whoa,

I never said Muhammad Ali was a 'selfish dick'.

He did many good things, and many other acts of goodwill that were done quietly without the
fanfare,,,,,,,,,,, a true measure of goodness from the heart.

Playing Hero Worship with Muhammad Ali is like playing with a 'Double-Edged Sword'.

If you are a 'self-serving' Scum Bag, but then do many good things........does that erase being
a Scum Bag.

Or do you say, that Scum Bag is really a good guy...........

i have no idea how one poster can produce so
much total BS and come up with gems like this
one above. i stop reading you, otherwise i would
begin to like you and i don't want that.

[ThatOne]

Whoa,

I never said Muhammad Ali was a 'selfish dick'.

He did many good things, and many other acts of goodwill that were done quietly without the
fanfare,,,,,,,,,,, a true measure of goodness from the heart.

Playing Hero Worship with Muhammad Ali is like playing with a 'Double-Edged Sword'.

If you are a 'self-serving' Scum Bag, but then do many good things........does that erase being
a Scum Bag.

Or do you say, that Scum Bag is really a good guy...........

i have no idea how one poster can produce so
much total BS and come up with gems like this
one above. i stop reading you, otherwise i would
begin to like you and i don't want that.

Doing really good things and being a scumbag are mutually exclusive. Il Duce knows that but his world view prohibits him from acknowledging it.

[ThatOne]

One of them was Ferdie Pacheco, known as boxing’s “fight doctor.” He was in a position to observe Ali’s effect on the populations surrounding him, and on the communities that he visited during his boxing career. Pacheco reminds us that Ali singlehandedly defused the idea that Black was ugly, and points out that prior to Ali:

Blacks were considered subhuman – hard word for me to say, but that’s what they were. In the South especially. That’s where Ali’s from, in the South. He comes along and by dint of his athletic ability, his graciousness, his funniness, his personality, and this incredibly good-looking body and face, he says to the camera, ‘Black is beautiful. Look at me. I’m prettier than anybody in Hollywood…and I’m black.’…By the time he got through, he had defused the idea that black was ugly. ‘You don’t have to worry about being black. Black is beautiful.’ And in that context alone, if you didn’t look at anything else, he was just as big as Martin Luther King, or anybody else, ‘cause he got black people thinking that they were good, nay, that they were better.