Jack Dempsey Versus

[ThatOne]

Joe Louis
Rocky Marciano
Floyd Patterson
Sonny Liston
Muhammad Ali
Joe Frazier
George Foreman
Larry Holmes
Michael Spinks
Mike Tyson
Evander Holyfield
Riddick Bowe
Lennox Lewis

[SteveO]

I could see him beating Patterson and Spinks but he would have lost to the others on that list. IMO.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I like Jack big over Patterson & Spinks.

I'd take him over Marciano, but that would be a war.

Punchers chance against Lennox, the rest of them is an uphill run.

[ThatOne]

I could see him beating Patterson and Spinks but he would have lost to the others on that list. IMO.

I agree somewhat. However he's a live underdog dog against Marciano.

[Ezzard]

He beats Floyd and Spinks.

I make him favourite against Marciano and Frazier.

He has a chance with Bowe, Lewis, Holmes and Holyfield.

He loses to the others...but I'd expect him to cover himself in glory in close defeats to Louis and Ali...and yet get bounced by Foreman, Liston and Tyson...

[The End]

For my money I would take him against Patterson and that's all.

[DaveyMac]

Agreed he beats Patterson and Spinks, but has to be the favorite against several others also.

Tyson I think would be an underdog. You couldn't really be sure which Tyson or which Dempsey would show up, but Dempsey wouldn't have backed down to Tyson and Mike had problems with guys like that.

You have to believe he is a small favorite against Liston, Dempsey was the better fighter and not that much smaller. Same thing with Frazier.

He and Marciano would be a great fight.

Foreman, Holmes, Bowe and Lewis are a lot bigger, but I don't think that would make them huge favorites, Bowe and Lewis would have to be dogs to him even.

Ali and Louis are too much for Dempsey.

[gilgamesh]

I could see him beating Patterson and Spinks but he would have lost to the others on that list. IMO.

That's the way I see it too.

[dempseyfire]

Joe Louis
Rocky Marciano
Floyd Patterson
Sonny Liston
Muhammad Ali
Joe Frazier
George Foreman
Larry Holmes
Michael Spinks
Mike Tyson
Evander Holyfield
Riddick Bowe
Lennox Lewis

Not surprised by how under-rated Dempsey is. He loses Ali, Louis, and Liston. Foreman and Frazier are 50/50 fights. He beats the rest.

[ThatOne]

Joe Louis
Rocky Marciano
Floyd Patterson
Sonny Liston
Muhammad Ali
Joe Frazier
George Foreman
Larry Holmes
Michael Spinks
Mike Tyson
Evander Holyfield
Riddick Bowe
Lennox Lewis

Not surprised by how under-rated Dempsey is. He loses Ali, Louis, and Liston. Foreman and Frazier are 50/50 fights. He beats the rest.

Some of it is probably backlash because of Il Duce's rants.

[gilgamesh]

Joe Louis
Rocky Marciano
Floyd Patterson
Sonny Liston
Muhammad Ali
Joe Frazier
George Foreman
Larry Holmes
Michael Spinks
Mike Tyson
Evander Holyfield
Riddick Bowe
Lennox Lewis

Not surprised by how under-rated Dempsey is. He loses Ali, Louis, and Liston. Foreman and Frazier are 50/50 fights. He beats the rest.

I think he's being rated exactly right for the most part. I would give him a fighting chance against Frazier and Marciano though I'd favor both of them over Dempsey. I think George Foreman beats the hell out of him, and overwhelms him inside 5 rounds.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Agreed Gil, imagine him being underrated in the eyes of a poster named Dempsey?

Holyfield, Bowe, Holmes, Tyson and Lewis don't even get a maybe?

[gilgamesh]

Agreed Gil, imagine him being underrated in the eyes of a poster named Dempsey?

Holyfield, Bowe, Holmes, Tyson and Lewis don't even get a maybe?

Holmes would outbox him easily, Holyfield is too tough and too skilled for him, Bowe is too skilled and too big, Tyson too ferocious and tough, and Lennox Lewis is too big and too skilled as well.

Dempsey would have a puncher's chance against Lewis, but I don't think he'd ever connect with his homerun shot against Lennox. Even if he did, there's a fair chance Lewis still rises to his feet and wins.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Agreed Gil, imagine him being underrated in the eyes of a poster named Dempsey?

Holyfield, Bowe, Holmes, Tyson and Lewis don't even get a maybe?

Holmes would outbox him easily, Holyfield is too tough and too skilled for him, Bowe is too skilled and too big, Tyson too ferocious and tough, and Lennox Lewis is too big and too skilled as well.

Dempsey would have a puncher's chance against Lewis, but I don't think he'd ever connect with his homerun shot against Lennox. Even if he did, there's a fair chance Lewis still rises to his feet and wins.

Agreed, NotDempseyFire.

I'd put Frazier and Foreman more about 101/-1

[Ezzard]

Dempsey was a big puncher. One of the best left hooks ever. He started very fast. Then paced himself mid-fight so he had gas left in the tank.

He had good speed in both feet and hands. He also had an underrated defence for an aggressive fighter.

He got dropped a few times because he got reckless in the championship years. But he was almost always up quickly.

He was at least one of the top 5 heavyweights in history for the first 50 years of the sport. He didn't weight 210 pounds...if he had weighed north of that he'd have beaten a lot more guys on the list.

[ThatOne]

Dempsey was a big puncher. One of the best left hooks ever. He started very fast. Then paced himself mid-fight so he had gas left in the tank.

He had good speed in both feet and hands. He also had an underrated defence for an aggressive fighter.

He got dropped a few times because he got reckless in the championship years. But he was almost always up quickly.

He was at least one of the top 5 heavyweights in history for the first 50 years of the sport. He didn't weight 210 pounds...if he had weighed north of that he'd have beaten a lot more guys on the list.

George Mikan was one of the top five basketball players in the early years of the National Basketball Association. Today he would struggle to make a top fifty list. Like Dempsey, a lot of it is because he didn't compete against colored, read, African American athletes. Isn't it ironic that all thse people defeating him in these mythical match ups are colored, read, African American fighters. Well, The Lion isn't technically African American but you ger my drift.

I don't think I'm being harsh, after all it was Jack Dempsey who said he would not give black fighters title shots:

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-fr ... 5F4D8185F9

[Ezzard]

I don't really buy into racial superiority.

Yes people from Japan are generally smaller than Europeans...so you'd expect them to be over represented in the lower weights in comparison to say Germany. And you can take that example and apply it to all races. I get that.

But I don't really feel an individual is at a disadvantage to another individual because of race.

On average I don't think the average fighter back then was any better or worse than the average fighter now...sure there are golden eras...but I wouldn't dismiss someone because of when they fought or what their racial background was.

Also, few people are really this or that... Ali had an Irish great-grandfather or great-grandmother. Dempsey's native American genes were apparently downplayed by his the previous generation of his family due to perceived prejudice.

[ThatOne]

I don't really buy into racial superiority.

Yes people from Japan are generally smaller than Europeans...so you'd expect them to be over represented in the lower weights in comparison to say Germany. And you can take that example and apply it to all races. I get that.

But I don't really feel an individual is at a disadvantage to another individual because of race.

On average I don't think the average fighter back then was any better or worse than the average fighter now...sure there are golden eras...but I wouldn't dismiss someone because of when they fought or what their racial background was.

Also, few people are really this or that... Ali had an Irish great-grandfather or great-grandmother. Dempsey's native American genes were apparently downplayed by his the previous generation of his family due to perceived prejudice.

It's not racial superiority per se. Manny Pacquiao's career would be looking a lot better now if he didn't face Latinos. Given that the Philippines was a Spanish colony Manny might be part Spanish but I digress... The point is black fighters were pretty much eliminated from title shots during the Dempsey era ... And in the eighty or so years since they have been some of the sport's most successful fighters.

[Ezzard]

I get all that but Joe Louis only fought one black guy up until the war.

Johnson didn't fight any black challengers.

Dempsey should have fought Wills. I agree. But other than Wills who else was there with a huge claim?

Holmes should have fought Greg Page, Pinklon Thomas, Gerrie Coetzee and rematched Tim Witherspoon... Holmes is a great of the ring.

[ThatOne]

I get all that but Joe Louis only fought one black guy up until the war.

Johnson didn't fight any black challengers.

Dempsey should have fought Wills. I agree. But other than Wills who else was there with a huge claim?

Holmes should have fought Greg Page, Pinklon Thomas, Gerrie Coetzee and rematched Tim Witherspoon... Holmes is a great of the ring.

I think we're arguing on parallel tracks. It's not so much that Dempsey only fought white fellas or that Mikan only played against white fellas ( I hope you like American basketball or the analogy doesn't make much sense.) It's that the sport(s) became so much more competitive in the eras that followed them.

[Ezzard]

I get all that but Joe Louis only fought one black guy up until the war.

Johnson didn't fight any black challengers.

Dempsey should have fought Wills. I agree. But other than Wills who else was there with a huge claim?

Holmes should have fought Greg Page, Pinklon Thomas, Gerrie Coetzee and rematched Tim Witherspoon... Holmes is a great of the ring.

I think we're arguing on parallel tracks. It's not so much that Dempsey only fought white fellas or that Mikan only played against white fellas ( I hope you like American basketball or the analogy doesn't make much sense.) It's that the sport(s) became so much more competitive in the eras that followed them.

My point is just this then (as we probably are on the same side) if you had what it took to rise to the top in one era then you'd be top or close to it in another.

What goes against those guys is size.

[ThatOne]

I get all that but Joe Louis only fought one black guy up until the war.

Johnson didn't fight any black challengers.

Dempsey should have fought Wills. I agree. But other than Wills who else was there with a huge claim?

Holmes should have fought Greg Page, Pinklon Thomas, Gerrie Coetzee and rematched Tim Witherspoon... Holmes is a great of the ring.

I think we're arguing on parallel tracks. It's not so much that Dempsey only fought white fellas or that Mikan only played against white fellas ( I hope you like American basketball or the analogy doesn't make much sense.) It's that the sport(s) became so much more competitive in the eras that followed them.

My point is just this then (as we probably are on the same side) if you had what it took to rise to the top in one era then you'd be top or close to it in another.

What goes against those guys is size.

I agree and the athletes were drawn from a bigger pool .

[ThatOne]

I get all that but Joe Louis only fought one black guy up until the war.

Johnson didn't fight any black challengers.

Dempsey should have fought Wills. I agree. But other than Wills who else was there with a huge claim?

Holmes should have fought Greg Page, Pinklon Thomas, Gerrie Coetzee and rematched Tim Witherspoon... Holmes is a great of the ring.

I think we're arguing on parallel tracks. It's not so much that Dempsey only fought white fellas or that Mikan only played against white fellas ( I hope you like American basketball or the analogy doesn't make much sense.) It's that the sport(s) became so much more competitive in the eras that followed them.

My point is just this then (as we probably are on the same side) if you had what it took to rise to the top in one era then you'd be top or close to it in another.

What goes against those guys is size.

I agree and the athletes were drawn from a bigger pool .

[klompton]

I get all that but Joe Louis only fought one black guy up until the war.

Johnson didn't fight any black challengers.

Dempsey should have fought Wills. I agree. But other than Wills who else was there with a huge claim?

Holmes should have fought Greg Page, Pinklon Thomas, Gerrie Coetzee and rematched Tim Witherspoon... Holmes is a great of the ring.

Who should Joe Louis have fought that was black pre 1942? You cant just trot out a black guy who isnt a contender and then give him a title shot for no reason. Ive never seen a legitimate argument that held any water that Louis avoided black contenders, or anyone for that matter. Dempsey on the other hand actively ducked his two top contenders. I can give him a pass on Greb but that was a no win situation whether win, lose, or draw. But the Wills thing is inexcusible. That is a major gaping hole in his record that leaves MANY question marks.

[elmersalsa]

I could see him beating Patterson and Spinks but he would have lost to the others on that list. IMO.

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