I met a guy....
I train 3-4x/week in Brazilian jiu-jitsu (gi and no gi), and also do a little MMA-type sparring on occassion, at a place in Redondo Beach, CA. Besides the core group that trains there regularly, there are all kinds of strange people who float in and out.
One of them, who went by the name Red Bull (no kidding), told me he sells dvds of old-fights which he got off super 8 reels he acquires from local libraries and other sources which I forget. He saw me hitting the heavy bag, figured I might be a boxing fan, and came over to introduce himself. We got to talking and he showed me a list of fights he said he had that included a lot of fights I've seen -- and Sonny Liston v. Zora Folley, which caught my attention in a big way, because I thought no film of that fight existed (certainly, I've never seen it).
I asked him about it and got what I thought was double-talk back. Then he wanted me to give him some money to make a dvd, telling me he'd bring it to the gym the next week. I told him no way, it's not going to work like that. Bring it in and let me see it, if it's really Liston-Folley, you bet I'll buy it.
He came back once after that but "forgot" to bring the fight. Haven't seen him since.
I take it for granted this guy was giving me the runaround, but I do wonder -- any chance the film does exist somewhere?
film of Liston-Folley fight?
Re: film of Liston-Folley fight?
No, and definately not from 8mm.
Re: film of Liston-Folley fight?
Much obliged. If there's one person who knows whereof he speaks when it comes to fight films, that person is you.klompton wrote:No, and definately not from 8mm.
Re: film of Liston-Folley fight?
No chance of friend / family recording??klompton wrote:No, and definately not from 8mm.
Im amazed how many films turn up that are not thought to exist....saying that I haven't seen films of Folley and Liston where they are family Cine film recordings.....probably b/s.
I seem to remember Liston vs Valdes on a list years ago...cannot remember the source...it may have been audio...
Evren
Re: film of Liston-Folley fight?
there are more big fights that werent filmed, or gor which films no longer exist than those that do. this is one of them.
for the record it did not draw $90,000. that was what milt willner estimated. it actually drew $77,000. far less than the hoped for $110,000. after paying the combined fighters purses of $75,000 and $10,000 in expenses willner took a hit. so the promotion could not be called successful. the bout was not shown on tv or broadcast on radio.
for the record it did not draw $90,000. that was what milt willner estimated. it actually drew $77,000. far less than the hoped for $110,000. after paying the combined fighters purses of $75,000 and $10,000 in expenses willner took a hit. so the promotion could not be called successful. the bout was not shown on tv or broadcast on radio.
Re: film of Liston-Folley fight?
More bullshit lies from Il Douche who cant stand being corrected.
Why dont you post these "City Business Records"? No. I didnt think so.
The fight did just over $77,000.
Why dont you post these "City Business Records"? No. I didnt think so.
The fight did just over $77,000.
Re: film of Liston-Folley fight?
No, you posted an AP report that stated Milt Wilner ESTIMATED the gate to be $90,000. Nowhere did you post any "City Business Records".
The gross was actually $77,406.55 ( http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Jh ... %2C3946652 ). Of that $75,000 was paid to the fighters and in excess of $10,000 was paid for expenses. That means Wilner made no money. That means it wasnt success. I realize you hate to have it pointed out when you are wrong because it illustrates that you werent actually there, or alive, when these events happen, as you pretend but to sit there and lie by pretending you somehow have access to Denver City Business Records... Get real.
The gross was actually $77,406.55 ( http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Jh ... %2C3946652 ). Of that $75,000 was paid to the fighters and in excess of $10,000 was paid for expenses. That means Wilner made no money. That means it wasnt success. I realize you hate to have it pointed out when you are wrong because it illustrates that you werent actually there, or alive, when these events happen, as you pretend but to sit there and lie by pretending you somehow have access to Denver City Business Records... Get real.
Re: film of Liston-Folley fight?
Why don't people use citations when they are citing facts or at at least provide them when asked?
It's the courteous thing to do.
It's the courteous thing to do.
Re: film of Liston-Folley fight?
The early gate receipts were accurate because they werent augmented by any ancillary rights. Do you even know how sports promotions worked back then? The gross gate was the gross gate. It didnt suddenly grow by some miraculous flood of money AFTER the fight was completed. Let me do a little simple math for you: Milt Wilner spent $75000 just to get Liston and Folley. He spent another $10,000 plus on expenses. He GROSSED $77406.55. That means his net (his take home for children like Douche who still live with their parents and have never worked before) was NEGATIVE $7593 or worse. So if a guy loses nearly ten thousand dollars and fails to sell out his arena (which he predicted) then it should go without saying to anyone with half a brain that Wilner LOST money on the deal and the promotion was not a success.
Im still waiting for you to provide me with a source for your quote of the Denver City Business Record... LOL, god your lies are ridiculous. As if a guy who is supposedly living in New York, or is it Pittsburgh, or is it New Hampshire, has access to Denver City Business Records...
Im still waiting for you to provide me with a source for your quote of the Denver City Business Record... LOL, god your lies are ridiculous. As if a guy who is supposedly living in New York, or is it Pittsburgh, or is it New Hampshire, has access to Denver City Business Records...
Re: film of Liston-Folley fight?
It's not my math its Wilner's. What? Because Wilner was supposedly connected he cant make bad business decisions or lose money? You think Don King never lost money on a promotion? Or Bob Arum? They are a hell of a lot better at what they do than Milt ever was and I assure you theyve lost money. Milt Wilner was in a tight spot with this promotion. It was supposed to be a televised double header with Archie Moore facing Eric Shoeppner as the support. Moore's bout got cancelled which bumped the card from TV and limited its revenue potential. Wilner was forced to scale back the promotion but decided to go ahead with it. He had an interest in Liston and realized that by beating Folley Liston could add a lot of credibility to his challenge of Patterson as Liston and Folley were #1 and #2 respectively. As is common with most smart businessmen Wilner was looking at the big picture, a shot at the title. As for your fuzzy math: The arena seated 11,400 people for the event. 9252 people were present (and we dont know how many of those people had comps or passes). That means the arena was only about 3/4 full to begin with. If you do the math on the tickets, and thats assuming that all of those 9252 people actually paid, which were priced from $3 to $20 you can see that the $77,000+ is a completely reasonable figure (The average ticket price for this fight, assuming everyone present paid which would be unlikely and unusual, was just over $8 which is in the median and exactly where you would expect it to be) and that by having a full house he could have easily reached the $110,000 that a full house would have brought. The part you arent getting is that the number of tickets unsold is only as important as the cost of the ticket that went unsold. So yes, had Wilner sold 11400 tickets, which would have grossed $110000 and his expenses were $85000, hell lets say they were $90,000 just to be conservative and round up, then he would have netted a $20,000 profit. A hell of a nice profit back in 1960. Sadly he didnt and lost money on the deal. Nice try Douche. Your education continues.
Oh and by the way, dont forget to post your source for the "Denver City Business Records" LOL
Oh and by the way, dont forget to post your source for the "Denver City Business Records" LOL
Re: film of Liston-Folley fight?
Actually if you really want to get technical its 81% (the seating was for 11400 that night, not 11200) which is ABOUT 3/4 full which is what I said. It doesnt change the overall picture of my post and since this is the only thing you can desperately latch onto lets just admit Im right and move on.
So as it stands: You were wrong about the numbers of the fight. You were wrong that it was a success. And you lied that you had alternative numbers from some fictional Denver Business Records (LOL). Youve essentially offered nothing in the way of a rebuttal except to post an ebay photo of Liston and Folley weighing in and to split hairs over my description of the capacity of the event being 3/4 full, which does nothing to alter my overall argument.
Stay classy Douche!
So as it stands: You were wrong about the numbers of the fight. You were wrong that it was a success. And you lied that you had alternative numbers from some fictional Denver Business Records (LOL). Youve essentially offered nothing in the way of a rebuttal except to post an ebay photo of Liston and Folley weighing in and to split hairs over my description of the capacity of the event being 3/4 full, which does nothing to alter my overall argument.
Stay classy Douche!
Last edited by klompton on 27 Sep 2013, 13:33, edited 1 time in total.
Re: film of Liston-Folley fight?
Il Duce wrote:Get the Percentages correct........
83% is more like it...........not {3/4's Full} to make your Math Argument look good.
Wharton School of Business.
Always take a Big Risk for Little Gain..........
So, another '1800 Tickets Sold' {give or take a few} to reach a 'Packed House' would have pulled in another $33,000 to get to $110,000.
Mr. Klompton,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Want to Buy A Bridge..........
Are you retarded? The seating for Liston Folley was 11400. 11400 - 9252 (the attendance) = 2148.\
The full capacity would have grossed $110,000. The 9252 grossed only $77406.55. This leaves a difference of $32,593.45 in price realization. In order to attain that 2148 people would have paid an average ticket price of just over $15. Considering tickets ranged from $3 to $20 this is completely within the realm of possibility. What about that arent you getting? It isnt unusual at all for an event like this to see a slump in ticket sales weighted on the high end of the spectrum (i.e. ringside seats) Ive seen it personally several times. That completely ignores the possibility that not all of those 9252 people paid (which is not uncommon). If they didnt then the numbers are skewed on the high side and average ticket price needed to get to $32,593.45 is actually lower. I wouldnt expect a child who pretends to be a republican to understand anything about real dollars and cents, both are typically more experienced with playing with "pretend" money.
Re: film of Liston-Folley fight?
Il Douche...with the above battering in mind can you confirm you are in fact 12 years old?klompton wrote:Il Duce wrote:Get the Percentages correct........
83% is more like it...........not {3/4's Full} to make your Math Argument look good.
Wharton School of Business.
Always take a Big Risk for Little Gain..........
So, another '1800 Tickets Sold' {give or take a few} to reach a 'Packed House' would have pulled in another $33,000 to get to $110,000.
Mr. Klompton,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Want to Buy A Bridge..........
Are you retarded? The seating for Liston Folley was 11400. 11400 - 9252 (the attendance) = 2148.\
The full capacity would have grossed $110,000. The 9252 grossed only $77406.55. This leaves a difference of $32,593.45 in price realization. In order to attain that 2148 people would have paid an average ticket price of just over $15. Considering tickets ranged from $3 to $20 this is completely within the realm of possibility. What about that arent you getting? It isnt unusual at all for an event like this to see a slump in ticket sales weighted on the high end of the spectrum (i.e. ringside seats) Ive seen it personally several times. That completely ignores the possibility that not all of those 9252 people paid (which is not uncommon). If they didnt then the numbers are skewed on the high side and average ticket price needed to get to $32,593.45 is actually lower. I wouldnt expect a child who pretends to be a republican to understand anything about real dollars and cents, both are typically more experienced with playing with "pretend" money.
Re: film of Liston-Folley fight?
Its like talking with a child... oh wait. It doesnt matter whether I said it 3/4 or 4/5 full. Thats not the point. You are trying to cover the fact that you mispoke by saying that the difference between 11400 and 9252 could not get to a $110,000 house and they could. Tickets werent $8.00. That was a median average of the tickets sold to the 9252 present. Ticket prices ranged from $3 to $20. Meaning that it is well within the sphere of probability that the difference between 9252 and 11400 could gross a $110,000.Il Duce wrote:No you're wrong,,,,,,,,
9252 of 11,400 is over 81%, which is closer to the Number of over 4/5's Full, not 3/4's Full...........
see; Weights and Measures
And based upon your 'Odd Math, at $8.00 a Pop, a Full House would have brought in $91,200,
not $110,000.
Do you want to know why Milt Wilner pulled in $91,075 with a House of 9252.........
See Denver City Council.....who 'contracted' to purchase 'selected' Ringside Gold Seats at 'Premium Prices,
to insure that the Promotion was 'Go-Go Good in Denver'.
The Coliseum seated 10,500 - and an approximately an additional 900 temporary seats {give or take 100}
were added.....
'It's Nothing Personal Mr. Klompton, It's Just Business'
Ok, so now you agree with me that the seating was 11400, not 11200. Right? 10500+900 is 11400? Was that so hard?
Even if the city council paid tax payer money to Milt Wilner to give the appearance of a successful promotion (citation please) that doesnt change the gross figures after the fact. That would all be part of the gross. Unless you are are insinuating that the Denver city council paid tax payer money to buy seats to an event that had already taken place after the fact. So once again, CITATION PLEASE! I swear your ignorance never ceases to amaze me.
But, lets assume you are correct and for some ridiculous reason (according to you the Denver City Council wanted to give the impression that this bout was a success) the city council contracted with the promoter to buy up blocks of the choicest seats (a transparent lie by you to throw off my math by making the expensive seats unavailable) in order to make it look like the bout did well financially. Is that what you would call a success? Because once again, that means the fight didnt actually draw and therefore was not a success. Your numbers would have, by your own admission, have been inflated (whether by your lies or by what was tantamount to a fluff payout) only to give the appearance of a success. So youve now backed yourself into a corner where you admit you are wrong in one of two ways: 1. Either you were lying to begin with (which I know to be true) and dont know what you are talking about. Then constructed one elaborate lie after another (your modus operandi) in order to try to cover your tracks. or 2. You admit that the promotion really wasnt that successful but that Milt Wilner had his numbers inflated by a backroom deal with city council to give the appearance of success (now this I know to be bullshit, but I enjoy watching you squirm so lets roll with it).
Re: film of Liston-Folley fight?
The Coliseum had 10,500 'fixed seats'.
The additional seating was 'temporary' and the number of added seats 'folding chairs'
and a few 'specialty' seats of 900 was an 'estimate' of the 'special seating arrangement',
not an exact account.
Now nobody knows the exact number of seats, but only you - who painstakingly counted
them that Monday Night........
The seating was advertised you moron. Thats how I know. If they advertise that they have 11400 seats to sell and they print 11400 tickets then its a safe bet thats what they have. Instead you are arguing that they had 11200... based on what? As usual you are pulling numbers out of your ass.
And yes, the 'Median Price' of a Ticket was $8.40 x 9252 attendee's = $77,700
But, the unsold tickets for the other 2148 seats.
If they were sold, how would that get you from $77,000 to $110,000 - that is a $33,000 difference.
That's about $16.00 / Ticket on 'average'.
You sure aren't getting there by selling General Admission and Mid-Level tickets.
And all the Ringside Perimeter Seats were sold......So where could you pull that adde
d revenue in from.... Answer.........You Can't.
The only person saying that ALL of the ringside seats were sold is YOU. Sorry if I dont put much stock in that. You are getting that from what? This imaginary denver business record book? So the denver city council decided to use tax payer money to buy up all of the ringside seats to help Milt out? Because they wanted it to look like the promotion was a success? Yeah, RIGHT, I bet you do want to sell me a bridge if I believe that bullshit. Show me a source and I'll admit Im wrong. You cant and you wont. Irregardless, once again, either way you slice it the promotion was not successful. Period. Even by your own desperate attempt to save face with that ridiculous lie about the city council it still means the public didnt buy those tickets and your numbers were inflated. Whether they were inflated by you (which they were) or by the city council (which never happened and was a lie by you).
If you have a problem with my math get a calculator and work it yourself. There were 11400 seats available. 3000 were considered premium seats. Ticket prices were $20, $15, $10, $7.50, AND $3.00. If you arent a complete idiot and can do basic math you will see that it is very easy for you to get $77000 with 9252 tickets sold and still get to $110000 with another 2148 to go.
The only thing that refutes any of this is you and your stories. You got it wrong. Admit it. You looked real quick a google news article (like you always do) and quoted an ESTIMATE. Then to cover your ass because you are always trying to pretend you have insider knowledge you lied and lied and lied.
The additional seating was 'temporary' and the number of added seats 'folding chairs'
and a few 'specialty' seats of 900 was an 'estimate' of the 'special seating arrangement',
not an exact account.
Now nobody knows the exact number of seats, but only you - who painstakingly counted
them that Monday Night........
The seating was advertised you moron. Thats how I know. If they advertise that they have 11400 seats to sell and they print 11400 tickets then its a safe bet thats what they have. Instead you are arguing that they had 11200... based on what? As usual you are pulling numbers out of your ass.
And yes, the 'Median Price' of a Ticket was $8.40 x 9252 attendee's = $77,700
But, the unsold tickets for the other 2148 seats.
If they were sold, how would that get you from $77,000 to $110,000 - that is a $33,000 difference.
That's about $16.00 / Ticket on 'average'.
You sure aren't getting there by selling General Admission and Mid-Level tickets.
And all the Ringside Perimeter Seats were sold......So where could you pull that adde
d revenue in from.... Answer.........You Can't.
The only person saying that ALL of the ringside seats were sold is YOU. Sorry if I dont put much stock in that. You are getting that from what? This imaginary denver business record book? So the denver city council decided to use tax payer money to buy up all of the ringside seats to help Milt out? Because they wanted it to look like the promotion was a success? Yeah, RIGHT, I bet you do want to sell me a bridge if I believe that bullshit. Show me a source and I'll admit Im wrong. You cant and you wont. Irregardless, once again, either way you slice it the promotion was not successful. Period. Even by your own desperate attempt to save face with that ridiculous lie about the city council it still means the public didnt buy those tickets and your numbers were inflated. Whether they were inflated by you (which they were) or by the city council (which never happened and was a lie by you).
If you have a problem with my math get a calculator and work it yourself. There were 11400 seats available. 3000 were considered premium seats. Ticket prices were $20, $15, $10, $7.50, AND $3.00. If you arent a complete idiot and can do basic math you will see that it is very easy for you to get $77000 with 9252 tickets sold and still get to $110000 with another 2148 to go.
The only thing that refutes any of this is you and your stories. You got it wrong. Admit it. You looked real quick a google news article (like you always do) and quoted an ESTIMATE. Then to cover your ass because you are always trying to pretend you have insider knowledge you lied and lied and lied.
Re: film of Liston-Folley fight?
Funny. Just for the hell of it I went back and checked Boxing Illustrated (dont feel like digging through my shelves for the Ring) hmmm wonder if old BI would give figures for the gate... Sure enough they did. Surprise surprise. With no next day deadline and a lot more time to verify gate reciepts they give the gross as $77,406.55. Ok, so a wire report and the BI quote the same figure I have. All you can come up with is Milt's estimate and some bullshit story (that cant be found or verified anywhere but from you) that the gate was $91000+ and attained by a secret deal worked out between the city council and Milt whereby tax payer money would be used to buy up ALL of the ringside seats just for the sole purpose of giving the impression that the promotion was a success. 
Re: film of Liston-Folley fight?
Perhaps Milt had a whip round at ringside to make up the shortfall :-)
Re: film of Liston-Folley fight?
Well thats funny because the poster I have for the fight hanging on the wall in my gym states there are 3000 premium seats. It also lists only 3000 general admission at $3. That means only $9000 of the gross was from $3 seats IF every single one of those seats sold. Which means that the vast majority of tickets were prices between $7.50 and $20. I shouldnt have to explain it to you but this also means that my numbers are correct (and backed up by verifiable sources) yours arent. You can lie and say youve been there (doesnt change the facts) you can lie and quote estimates (they are only estimates) you can lie and say there was some secret deal between the city council and the promoter (you wont provide a source for this) you can lie and say that you get your figures from the city records (you wont back this up with anything) but Im sitting here quoting rock solid, hard, verifiable numbers which are backed up by sources that anyone here can quickly check and cross compare. AFTER Ive quoted these figures you start using them for your argument, meaning you didnt know the price of tickets, the seating capacity, or anything else before I brought that into play. Youve brought absolutely nothing to the argument but fiction AND this fiction still supports my argument! I'll leave it to anyone reading to check my numbers and sources and they will quickly see that what Ive quoted is correct and that by those numbers you can easily bridge the gap in the deficit between the actual attendance and the gross of a full house by several different combinations of ticket sales. Not just the premium seats as you pretend. So keep on. Im enjoying reading the lies build up on top of each other.
Re: film of Liston-Folley fight?
WTF does a modern seating plan (which isnt even for a boxing event) have to do with a fight held 53 YEARS AGO FFS!!!! Im going by actual figures quoted by the people who promoted the show!! You are making it up in your head as you go along you idiot! Once again since I cant spell it out for you in sign language:
The arena seated 11400 (which you didnt know until I told you)
Had the arena been filled to capacity the gross gate would have been $110,000 (which you didnt know until I told you)
Ticket prices were $20, $15, $10, $7.50, and $3 (which you didnt know until I told you)
The actual attendance was 9252 (which you didnt know until I told you)
The actual gross gate was $77,406.55 (which you didnt know until I told you)
You said that the seating capacity was less.
You said that the attendance was more
You said that the actual gross was more
You were wrong and I corrected you. As usual, you cant stand to be corrected because it shows that you werent there. In this case it showed plainly that you got your information from a AP report which used ESTIMATED numbers.
In order to save face and make it look like you were right you lied and quoted "denver city business record books" which you cant reproduce.
Then you lied again and basically said I was technically right, that the event didnt sell that many tickets but that your numbers looked the way they did because there was a top secret deal between the promoter and the city council whereby the city council would buy up every premium ringside seat in the house in order to give the appearance that the promotion had not failed... (tin foil hat much??) Yet you wont produce any documentation to this end.
Now you come on here with a modern seating chart (which has nothing to do with the fight and in no way invalidates anything I say) as some sort of proof of what? Im not sure. Is that modern color coding supposed to mean something about a fight 53 years ago? As if the arena has never been remodeled? Do you think the promoter is legally obliged in 1960 to set ticket prices based on a color coded seating chart 53 years in the future? The fact is you dont have any idea what how many tickets were sold for what price. I do.
You didnt even know what the ticket prices were. I told you. So come back with something better and back up your bullshit stories or go back to doing what you do best: Posting more bullshit stories about Muhammad Ali.
The arena seated 11400 (which you didnt know until I told you)
Had the arena been filled to capacity the gross gate would have been $110,000 (which you didnt know until I told you)
Ticket prices were $20, $15, $10, $7.50, and $3 (which you didnt know until I told you)
The actual attendance was 9252 (which you didnt know until I told you)
The actual gross gate was $77,406.55 (which you didnt know until I told you)
You said that the seating capacity was less.
You said that the attendance was more
You said that the actual gross was more
You were wrong and I corrected you. As usual, you cant stand to be corrected because it shows that you werent there. In this case it showed plainly that you got your information from a AP report which used ESTIMATED numbers.
In order to save face and make it look like you were right you lied and quoted "denver city business record books" which you cant reproduce.
Then you lied again and basically said I was technically right, that the event didnt sell that many tickets but that your numbers looked the way they did because there was a top secret deal between the promoter and the city council whereby the city council would buy up every premium ringside seat in the house in order to give the appearance that the promotion had not failed... (tin foil hat much??) Yet you wont produce any documentation to this end.
Now you come on here with a modern seating chart (which has nothing to do with the fight and in no way invalidates anything I say) as some sort of proof of what? Im not sure. Is that modern color coding supposed to mean something about a fight 53 years ago? As if the arena has never been remodeled? Do you think the promoter is legally obliged in 1960 to set ticket prices based on a color coded seating chart 53 years in the future? The fact is you dont have any idea what how many tickets were sold for what price. I do.
You didnt even know what the ticket prices were. I told you. So come back with something better and back up your bullshit stories or go back to doing what you do best: Posting more bullshit stories about Muhammad Ali.
Re: film of Liston-Folley fight?
As I expected. You cant come back with any substance. When you eventually move out of your parents house (as your obviously too young to even know what the title of that film means) and get a day job washing dishes... dont quit your day job.
Re: film of Liston-Folley fight?
prove it.
then once youve done that explain to me how an imaginary bailout by the city equates with promotional success. thats like saying the banks were successful in 2008 because they got a bailout. i wouldnt expect a 12 yr old to understand that analogy any better than the idea that film of a boxing match from over a decade later somehow illustrates the seating pattern of a fight a decade earlier (which isnt the fornicating point to begin with as you well know).
then once youve done that explain to me how an imaginary bailout by the city equates with promotional success. thats like saying the banks were successful in 2008 because they got a bailout. i wouldnt expect a 12 yr old to understand that analogy any better than the idea that film of a boxing match from over a decade later somehow illustrates the seating pattern of a fight a decade earlier (which isnt the fornicating point to begin with as you well know).
Re: film of Liston-Folley fight?
to get back to the original point: the fight was not filmed professionally, was not broadcast on radip or tv (hence no kinescope) and as far as anyone who has been collecting films for decades knows was never filmed by a ringside bootleg.
Re: film of Liston-Folley fight?
here, lets do this: you are supposedly quoting from this directory. where is it? all you have to do is tell me where this source is and ill pay to have them fax me a copy. ill scan it and post it here. if you are right the crow is on me. im willing to do that to prove once again you are lying. balls in your court.
Re: film of Liston-Folley fight?
Il Duce is a most entertaining fella.
He reminds of this chap:
He reminds of this chap:
Re: film of Liston-Folley fight?
The first picture I've seen of Klompton 
