Isn't it strange ??

[dalcumly]

From time immemorial Olympic boxing medallists have started their pro careers fighting opponents who have no chance against them and would not have been suitable AMATEUR opponents in the years before they turned professional.
In more recent times this 'tradition' has got even more bizarre, because nowadays our Olympic hopefuls are virtually full time ,training everyday, top quality sparring and coaching with nutritional advice thrown in. Each contest is against someone at the highest level .
Then suddenly they turn professional. The full time training continues, the coaches are different and the sparring is geared to the pro game.
Then we have the 'improved' fighter taking on guys who could not have qualified to be sparring partners in their amateur days.
What we then have , like the Joshua fight for example, is a SHOW, not a fight - a public appearance - to build up publicity and to create a bit of momentum for the boxer. From a purely 'sporting' or 'boxing' standpoint Joshua's fight last night was utterly pointless. It was of no benefit whatsover to Joshua and was cruel to his opponent - who granted may have been well paid.
It's difficult for his promoter/manager who would be correct in asking 'what do you expect me to do?'

Well, why not put him straight in with Martin Rogan, John McDermot or Skelton?? Would he get beat against these guys ?? Would he learn from those type of fights ? Would it bring him along quicker to where he wants to be ? Would it prepare him better for 'world ' level fighters down the road ? I think the answer to all these questions would be -yes.
But of course there would be a bit of risk involved , and we can't have that - can we ???

[Andrew]

Good post

Its just the standard for anyone to fight poor opposition when they turn over

At least Lomachencko is ducking the trend having a 10 rounder think Murata fought someone decent for a debut aswell

[expe]

Thank god you're not a matchmaker.

[Andrew]

Joshua in terms of boxing experience is a baby compared to say Lomachencko

Joshua only started boxing at 18 5 yrs ago so probably won't fight opposition like you said until early 2015 probably

[orbtastic]

You're an ex Copper aren't you?

Did you ever come across criminals who started right at the top and tried to burgle museums, rob banks etc or did you find they kinda started off at the bottom and took what they considered easy pickings irrespective of how they started off in crime? Granted, if they were any good, you'd not catch them first time round but I suspect most were not caught on their first outing.

[JC]

Well, why not put him straight in with Martin Rogan, John McDermot or Skelton?? Would he get beat against these guys ?? Would he learn from those type of fights ? Would it bring him along quicker to where he wants to be ? Would it prepare him better for 'world ' level fighters down the road ? I think the answer to all these questions would be -yes.
But of course there would be a bit of risk involved , and we can't have that - can we ???

Becuase a pro debut is not about learning fights, moving up the rankings, getting names on the record, dealing with arkward styles or anything like that. It's about getting used to the experience of being on a pro card, which is a world away from the amatuers, so there's not supposed to be pressure on the actual performance. Especially for someone like Joshua who has to get used to the press conferences, pre fight promotions and everything else that goes with being a name.

[Controversial]

Pretty much every fighter starts off with easy fights. As others have said its about building confidence as well because pro fights are nothing like amateur fights. Haye lost against Thompson not because Thompson was the better fighter but because Haye was inexperienced and punched himself out. It was a good learning fight for Haye. Chucking any top amateur in with a seasoned tough pro could easily backfire and rip his confidence to shreds before his career has even started.

[Bard of Boxrec]

From time immemorial Olympic boxing medallists have started their pro careers fighting opponents who have no chance against them and would not have been suitable AMATEUR opponents in the years before they turned professional.
In more recent times this 'tradition' has got even more bizarre, because nowadays our Olympic hopefuls are virtually full time ,training everyday, top quality sparring and coaching with nutritional advice thrown in. Each contest is against someone at the highest level .
Then suddenly they turn professional. The full time training continues, the coaches are different and the sparring is geared to the pro game.
Then we have the 'improved' fighter taking on guys who could not have qualified to be sparring partners in their amateur days.
What we then have , like the Joshua fight for example, is a SHOW, not a fight - a public appearance - to build up publicity and to create a bit of momentum for the boxer. From a purely 'sporting' or 'boxing' standpoint Joshua's fight last night was utterly pointless. It was of no benefit whatsover to Joshua and was cruel to his opponent - who granted may have been well paid.
It's difficult for his promoter/manager who would be correct in asking 'what do you expect me to do?'

Well, why not put him straight in with Martin Rogan, John McDermot or Skelton?? Would he get beat against these guys ?? Would he learn from those type of fights ? Would it bring him along quicker to where he wants to be ? Would it prepare him better for 'world ' level fighters down the road ? I think the answer to all these questions would be -yes.
But of course there would be a bit of risk involved , and we can't have that - can we ???

There are a few facets to this issue.

Firstly the problem is the supply of 'increasingly testing opposition' just isn't great enough for everyone considered a prospect to be facing, and never has been. Early-stage opponents are either tomato cans like last night or tough journeymen who are able to make a living from fighting a lot against rising stars and not getting bashed up too much.

It would be nice if every fighter who doesn't have it in him to reach some sort of title level could be the latter and make a nice career out of it without getting too hurt, but the reality is very different.

Secondly, boxing is a business. It's very naive to say 'Put him in with Rogan or Skelton in his first fight'. Aside from the ability factor, these men have reached a certain level and so, rightly or wrongly, command the sort of money and negotiating time that doesn't make sense for a debutante's team to spend. The business of growing a fighter from the ground up is putting him in a lot of fights with scrubs who don't cost much, marketing him through his crushing knockout victories, and getting some public interest so he can be a star down the line.

[dalcumly]

All sensible and I've got to say ,expected ,comments but neverthless it does NOT get away from the point that the Joshua fight was not a fight in the true sense of the word. His opponent was out of condition, didn't land a punch and had very little experience as far as I can gather and he was fighting the BEST super heavyweight amateur in the WORLD !!!
Try and explain that to a member of the public.
However I never expected Joshua to fight anyone any different and it'll continue until he fights for a title - and we just have to hope he's not another Harrison because he was brought along EXACTLY the same way.
I'm not complaining I'm just thinking it would be nice if someone was brought along differently, but there's al ot of money involved.

PS ORBASTIC

I don't fully understand the analogy but I'll give you another - I used to throw the minnows back until I caught the biggest fish in the pond!!!

[orbtastic]

Ha, fair enough. I think my point was that nobody gets pitched in at the deep end unless you're a Cuban pro with 400-500 fights at the very top level, or extremely foolish/brave (Pete Rademacher).

[hurlock]

I remember reading a peace from John conteh were he said when he sparred pros he used to feel knackerd & wonderd if he could ever do it as a pro. But saying that these modern day ams are like pros!!
Quality sparring is a must in order to learn. They have to get use to smaller gloves no headguard & believe it or not holding,head clashing all stuff which they are protected from in the ams

[Controversial]

All sensible and I've got to say ,expected ,comments but neverthless it does NOT get away from the point that the Joshua fight was not a fight in the true sense of the word. His opponent was out of condition, didn't land a punch and had very little experience as far as I can gather and he was fighting the BEST super heavyweight amateur in the WORLD !!!
Try and explain that to a member of the public.
However I never expected Joshua to fight anyone any different and it'll continue until he fights for a title - and we just have to hope he's not another Harrison because he was brought along EXACTLY the same way.
I'm not complaining I'm just thinking it would be nice if someone was brought along differently, but there's al ot of money involved.

PS ORBASTIC

I don't fully understand the analogy but I'll give you another - I used to throw the minnows back until I caught the biggest fish in the pond!!!

How would you want him bought along then? He either starts off easy and gradually fights better opponents, just like 99.99% of pro fighters do, or they chuck him in over is head and hope he wins. Just because he was a good amateur doesn't mean he will be a good pro. Plenty of poor amateurs have turned out to be great pros as well, it's a totally different ball game. Confidence is a big thing in boxing, a new pro getting schooled by some wiley old veteran isn't going to do him much good.

[Wa1nuts]

Well, why not put him straight in with Martin Rogan, John McDermot or Skelton?? Would he get beat against these guys ?? Would he learn from those type of fights ? Would it bring him along quicker to where he wants to be ? Would it prepare him better for 'world ' level fighters down the road ? I think the answer to all these questions would be -yes.
But of course there would be a bit of risk involved , and we can't have that - can we ???

Becuase a pro debut is not about learning fights, moving up the rankings, getting names on the record, dealing with arkward styles or anything like that. It's about getting used to the experience of being on a pro card, which is a world away from the amatuers, so there's not supposed to be pressure on the actual performance. Especially for someone like Joshua who has to get used to the press conferences, pre fight promotions and everything else that goes with being a name.

This.

I cant believe people are actually suggesting he should be fighting English / British level on his debut. Let him get used to the pro style, get used to the crowd and atmosphere etc. Give him time.

[iamasadlittleboy]

I'd have started him in with a durable domestic journeyman, Moses Matovu for example, and not as the main event of a televised show. By sticking him in with someone durable he'll get rounds (barring a genuinely impressive stoppage) and he'll develop more of the knowledge of being in the pro ranks (the fighting with out head gear etc).

The Hughie Fury camp have twice put Hughie in with Matovu and had had 8 rounds out of the guy, 8 VERY good (in terms od development) rounds.

There is a huge difference between putting him in with an unbeaten Italian with serious question marks but a pretty record, a domestic level guy and a domestic journeyman.

A foreign import is there to make the guy look good but lose, probably quickly, a journeyman is there to test the prospect and a British level guy is there to win. I'd rather see a prospect tested in some way.

[RockyJocky]

You're an ex Copper aren't you?

Did you ever come across criminals who started right at the top and tried to burgle museums, rob banks etc or did you find they kinda started off at the bottom and took what they considered easy pickings irrespective of how they started off in crime? Granted, if they were any good, you'd not catch them first time round but I suspect most were not caught on their first outing.

[RockyJocky]

All sensible and I've got to say ,expected ,comments but neverthless it does NOT get away from the point that the Joshua fight was not a fight in the true sense of the word. His opponent was out of condition, didn't land a punch and had very little experience as far as I can gather and he was fighting the BEST super heavyweight amateur in the WORLD !!!
Try and explain that to a member of the public.
However I never expected Joshua to fight anyone any different and it'll continue until he fights for a title - and we just have to hope he's not another Harrison because he was brought along EXACTLY the same way.
I'm not complaining I'm just thinking it would be nice if someone was brought along differently, but there's al ot of money involved.

PS ORBASTIC

I don't fully understand the analogy but I'll give you another - I used to throw the minnows back until I caught the biggest fish in the pond!!!

How would you want him bought along then? He either starts off easy and gradually fights better opponents, just like 99.99% of pro fighters do, or they chuck him in over is head and hope he wins. Just because he was a good amateur doesn't mean he will be a good pro. Plenty of poor amateurs have turned out to be great pros as well, it's a totally different ball game. Confidence is a big thing in boxing, a new pro getting schooled by some wiley old veteran isn't going to do him much good.

[dookus]

a) This is a business. You've got to build names, even when they have Olympic gold medals, and a large part of that is having them score early knockouts in their early fights as well as learn from more challenging fights. The trick is to balance the two objectives so that you end up with a popular fighter who's developed his skills well. There's nowt wrong with having a big young fighter bang out an opponent on live TV for his debut.

b) This is a business. You get paid when you fight (unlike the ams, ONLY when you fight), and the more hard fights you have the less fights you're likely to have. A few lucrative knockover jobs early on banks some money for Joshua. This is, after all, his job.

c) As said earlier, part of becoming a star is getting used to the big stage, and it's better to get comfortable with it in less challenging fights early on than freeze on the big stage the first time a decent opponent comes along.

d) This is not the amateurs. The pros fight differently, and things that matter in the amateurs don't in the pros and vice versa. The only sensible thing to do in the circumstances is to start at a low level (though obviously with some allowance for the fact that Joshua is an Olympic champion) and build up. Don't forget that Carlos Maussa, described by his own manager as "looking like he's drunk when he fights", was a legit fringe-world class pro and WBA titleholder - amateur pedigree is only a part of what goes into a successful pro, and even a Cuban with 300 fights and multiple world amateur titles is not going to just get in there and stroll to a world title in their first 5 fights.

[rob h]

I completely agree with where you re coming from, but it also seems naive for a boxing fan to let this bother you.

Chris Eubank Jr's opponents have been of a better - tougher quality, but he is in the minority. Joshua will have to go down this route. Its just standard for a big named amateur for all the reasons expertly mentioned above.

[Controversial]

Pros also start out only fighting 4/6 round fights, I'm sure they could fight longer but its all part of the learning curve, pacing yourself etc...

[ajwesty13]

Cruel to the opponent? i dont understand the guy came in with unbeaten record... hes a boxer not a tiler from essex.... if you look at matches being cruel then why not is your thread about journeymen? they are used as experience to up and coming fighters... you could be complaining about callum smiths last 5 opponents getting knocked all the first round as a waste of time ....

i really dont understand this thread.... what would you like to have happened to throw a boxer's first pro fight in with someone like skelton, haye, fury.... like people said thank god your not a match maker...

[Controversial]

Chris Eubank Jr's opponents have been of a better - tougher quality, but he is in the minority

Could this also be that Eubank can't break an egg with his punches so they have all ended up being long or rough fights? He has only fought one unbeaten opponent and that was Paul Allison (5-0-1) most of the others had quite a few losses on their records.

[danconnollyeire]

To be fair I can see both points. Boxing's a strange sport. You go from fighting the best in the world consitently (some Cuban's are as good as top pro's and other amateur's who go on to be champs/contenders) to fighting nobody consistently, then some alrigters, to decent fighters, to quite good before you fight world class again. It's like there's a five year gap of level of opponent. The graph drops dramatically and picks up steep. Boxing is like no other sport

[curtis wood]

the reasons are simple, first of all the promoters have paid top money to get these amateur stars to turn pro and need to protect there investment to some degree but lets just say Joshua fights and beats rogan on his debut which I believe he would where do they go next with him? hes then in the mix domestically before hes ready to be, hes young and hasn't got a ton of knowledge, he needs this opponents to learn but most importantly he needs the training camps, each camp he will get stronger and fitter and with top sparring im sure hes getting that will bring him on, to me he looks good but still pretty raw, with 2 years of top training camps and top sparring, sprinkle some tough durable fighters on his resume he could very good, chuck him in before hes ready and it can be a tough place to learn, give him time fellas

[bripez]

To be fair I can see both points. Boxing's a strange sport. You go from fighting the best in the world consitently (some Cuban's are as good as top pro's and other amateur's who go on to be champs/contenders) to fighting nobody consistently, then some alrigters, to decent fighters, to quite good before you fight world class again. It's like there's a five year gap of level of opponent. The graph drops dramatically and picks up steep. Boxing is like no other sport

I agree with the above, however as others have said the life of a top class amateur is way different than it was a few years ago.

A few years ago, the top lads mostly had jobs (often manual jobs) and would train of an evening after work at their local club.

These days, the England lads are all full-time athletes. They live and train in Sheffield, with the best facilities, bet coaches, nutritionists and medical facilities etc. and travel the world fighting the top boxers.

To go from that to then fighting a 4 rounder against a journeyman cannot be good for their "development".

Not only that, previously the boxers started their pro careers way down the bill - these days they are boxing in gimme fights and they are top of the bill and it is that issue that needs to be addressed as much as the opponents, as the average fan who may not know any better is being sold something that isn't what they think it is.

[bripez]

the reasons are simple, first of all the promoters have paid top money to get these amateur stars to turn pro and need to protect there investment to some degree but lets just say Joshua fights and beats rogan on his debut which I believe he would where do they go next with him? hes then in the mix domestically before hes ready to be, hes young and hasn't got a ton of knowledge, he needs this opponents to learn but most importantly he needs the training camps, each camp he will get stronger and fitter and with top sparring im sure hes getting that will bring him on, to me he looks good but still pretty raw, with 2 years of top training camps and top sparring, sprinkle some tough durable fighters on his resume he could very good, chuck him in before hes ready and it can be a tough place to learn, give him time fellas

I do agree with what you say to a certain exetent - although the promoters are selling these fights as "top of the bill" fights.

There is no way that I would pay good money to specifically watch Joshua / Cambell etc. in a fight for at least the next 3 years as it will not be competitive.