WLADIMIR KLITSCHKO: EASILY THE WORST EVER?

[JimStone]

Would Holyfield have fallen for that clinch tactic over and over though? Something about the quality of his footwork tells me otherwise.

Who knows for sure? All I know is that when I watch my old Bowe fights now (he's one of my favourites) I think the way he fights inside against smaller guys is stupid - I never used to think that - and whilst it's exciting there's little wonder he slurs now.

Why didn't he tie things up? At least until the ref started docking points. It's not like he was averse to fighting dirty. Perhaps he just wasn't sophisticated enough tactically.

He fought inside because he was effective inside, his uppercuts inside were devastating shots.

It seems like too many referees these days allow prolific holding - Wlad should never have been allowed to continually spoil against Povetkin, it's an infringement of the rules.

James, I agree that Bowe was very effective inside given his size. As I've said, I was a big fan of Riddick and loved watching his fights. However, it is undeniable that he took a lot of shots when he was thrilling us with his inside work. Taking shots when you don't have to is completely illogical and is seriously bad for your health. With the help of those around him, Wlad has developed a style that whilst not a compelling watch for some, is devastatingly effective at almost totally neutralising fighters – particularly smaller fighters - inside. The other night he barely took a shot against a top rated challenger over the course of 36 minutes.

What people are really saying when they say the Klitschkos, in particular Wlad, are no good is that they find them boring to watch. I'm not going to argue that, taste is taste. If referees are “letting him get away with cheating” as some claim, that's an issue for the referees to address.

Both Klitschkos are very good and very smart fighters.

People talk about the old, fat Lennox Lewis who fought Vitali. Lennox was the same age as Wlad is now, had had fewer fights and years as a pro than Wlad. I think Lennox is in the top two or three boxers of all time but I also think there's one overriding reason he didn't take the rematch with Vitali, despite an awful lot of money being offered.

[thepocketrocket]

In all seriousness, which heavyweight champions or contenders from 1990 onwards actually beat Wlad as he is today?

Corrie Sanders.

Corrie Sanders beats the Wlad of today, or just the Wlad who had a different style at the time they really fought?

[danconnollyeire]

In all seriousness, which heavyweight champions or contenders from 1990 onwards actually beat Wlad as he is today?

Corrie Sanders.

Corrie Sanders beats the Wlad of today, or just the Wlad who had a different style at the time they really fought?

Depends on the ref

[Controversial]

He should have been pulled up by the ref straightaway, it made it a predictable boring display of hugging, leaning, pushing, one-two, clinch. Yawn. He's a hard man to beat through being so big, strong and fit but he makes his fights as interesting as watching paint dry.

[orbtastic]

In all seriousness, which heavyweight champions or contenders from 1990 onwards actually beat Wlad as he is today?

Corrie Sanders.

Corrie Sanders beats the Wlad of today, or just the Wlad who had a different style at the time they really fought?

Course he did.

He's changed his style dramatically, it's all about reducing the likelihood of getting whacked in the chops and neutralising people when they're in range.

It's night and day when you watch him now compared to him against Brewster and Sanders - He went out there trying to knock them out, he almost did it against Brewster too.

There's a chance that someone with fast hands and height like Sanders could or would negate his distance neutralising skills i.e. not do what most people do which is get mesmerised with the jab, avoid being clinched/tired up or avoid doing what Povetkin did which is charge forward with his head down for round after round.

It's clear he's not the greatest at taking a solid shot to the chin, which is why he resorts to the myriad of tactics he has for either reducing the threat when in punching range or from keeping from mounting any sort of sustained attack.

Sanders landed a huge left early on and he never recovered from it. Brewster was taking a massive pasting for four rounds and on the verge of being knocked out before Wlad gassed badly.

Watch the first Brewster fight again, when was the last time you saw Wlad come out throwing a variety of punches like that? Probably that fight. I mean, he tends to keep his hooks locked up until about the 10th or 11th round now when he's absolutely certain they're both mentally and physically defeated before throwing them.

The first Sam Peter fight is kinda interesting because it shows you some sort of mid-metamorphosis Wlad in action - The jab's there, the skipping back out of range is there but you also have mid-fight concentration lapses where 3 or 4 times Peter gets in punching range and lands big shots and down he goes.

[thepocketrocket]

Really good post Orb.

Wlad always had the reputation of having beautiful punch variety on the way up. But as we saw, certain factors made life became more dangerous for Wlad, and this safety approach tactic helps him and has made him the dominating force he is.

Anyone who compares the Wlad of then to today is silly for doing so. Though you are correct regarding Sanders, he was tall, fast and hit like a truck. I think style wise he would always have been a pain in the backside for Wlad, but that doesn't mean Wlad wouldn't have kept it long and waited for Sanders to tire.

[Dixonian]

Must admit I often defend Wlad but that fight on Saturday left a bad taste in my mouth. The referee was inept to such a degree that it justifies an investigation. That amount of holding has no place in boxing.

What's frustrating is that there's a lot to admire from Wlad: great jab, footwork, lovely lead left hook, and crisp straight right. So why does he hug? Glass chin? I'm not entirely sure. He's a studious, intelligent guy. I think he wants to perfect the art of hitting and not getting hit, simply for health reasons. We fans want to see great fights. He is a boxer who understands the perils of the sport, and the science of it.

I don't blame Wlad for bending the rules, but it's up to officials to ensure the rules are abided by. And if they're not doing that, then they're not up to the job.

[JimStone]

The Brothers will probably only fight twice more between them. Wlad twice, or one a piece.

[Syntax Error]

Wlad has an 80.95% KO ratio. That's hardly indicative of a fighter without fire power.

He was also down three times against Sam Peter but got up and was able to win the fight. He has heart. It's dumb to go to war if you don't have to.

Wlad might not be entertaining (though I find his fights fascinating) but that doesn't mean he's bad.

An 80.95% KO ration means nothing in an era when the opposition is less than stellar.

[Clint Magnum]

Must admit I often defend Wlad but that fight on Saturday left a bad taste in my mouth. The referee was inept to such a degree that it justifies an investigation. That amount of holding has no place in boxing.

What's frustrating is that there's a lot to admire from Wlad: great jab, footwork, lovely lead left hook, and crisp straight right. So why does he hug? Glass chin? I'm not entirely sure. He's a studious, intelligent guy. I think he wants to perfect the art of hitting and not getting hit, simply for health reasons. We fans want to see great fights. He is a boxer who understands the perils of the sport, and the science of it.

I don't blame Wlad for bending the rules, but it's up to officials to ensure the rules are abided by. And if they're not doing that, then they're not up to the job.

100% agree.
Wlad is a great ambassador and role model for the sport outside of the ring but his recent showings have been shocking. I genuinely believe he is becoming bad for the sport.
The commentator even had the audacity to compare Ali's head holding tactic as evidence of previous champs utilising the rules to suit. This was not what Wlad was doing. He was repeatedly cheating, he was committing an illegal tactic over a dozen times in each round. The ref really boiled my water, truly spineless and ruined the only chance Povetkin had.

[dve3333]

Nothing more depressing then watching a Clinchko fight these days and this is coming from a guy who has travelled to Germany to see both in the past. Wlad knows his chin is fragile and will do everything he can to avoid getting hit. It says it all that he is such a dominant Heavyweight over the past 9 years and he means next to nothing outside of Europe. HBO jumped back on the Clinchko bandwagon and aired this fight but its safe to say they won't be showing him again in the near future.

It looks like it will be Pulev for Wlad next who probably won't offer a great deal but as crazy as this sounds I would like to see Chisora in with Wlad. You'd be guaranteed a good build up with the animosity between the two. Del Boy is a decent inside fighter and wouldn't be afraid to rough it up with Wlad in close when he tries his clinching and leaning

[Syntax Error]

Good point about Ali -v- Frazier 2.

Ali should have been deducted points in that fight.

[orbtastic]

He did the same in the Young fight and also lay back on the ropes a lot and taunted.

Young bizarrely put his head outside the ropes half a dozen or so times to try and negate the leaning on and pulling.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Must admit I often defend Wlad but that fight on Saturday left a bad taste in my mouth. The referee was inept to such a degree that it justifies an investigation. That amount of holding has no place in boxing.

What's frustrating is that there's a lot to admire from Wlad: great jab, footwork, lovely lead left hook, and crisp straight right. So why does he hug? Glass chin? I'm not entirely sure. He's a studious, intelligent guy. I think he wants to perfect the art of hitting and not getting hit, simply for health reasons. We fans want to see great fights. He is a boxer who understands the perils of the sport, and the science of it.

I don't blame Wlad for bending the rules, but it's up to officials to ensure the rules are abided by. And if they're not doing that, then they're not up to the job.

100% agree.
Wlad is a great ambassador and role model for the sport outside of the ring but his recent showings have been shocking. I genuinely believe he is becoming bad for the sport.
The commentator even had the audacity to compare Ali's head holding tactic as evidence of previous champs utilising the rules to suit. This was not what Wlad was doing. He was repeatedly cheating, he was committing an illegal tactic over a dozen times in each round. The ref really boiled my water, truly spineless and ruined the only chance Povetkin had.

Ali repeatedly cheated as he’d grab the back of the head then pull the opposing fighter in. He was warned repeatedly for this during the second fight with Frazier, so Rawling was right to bring it up. Ali’d also grab fighters in arm locks and Lewis used the leaning on, although not as much as Wlad did.

I totally agree, Ali was the master when it came to the clinches, armlocks, pulling his opponent toward him by their neck, he was actually a great grappler - but in fairness, he did throw a lot more punches than Wlad did. I agree though, Ali got away with murder.

Wlad's performance was absolutely shocking, spent the vast majority of the fight grabbing Povetkin around the back.

[JimStone]

He won by fifteen points, barely got hit, netted millions, walked away with the belts, still not slurring after 64 fights, still at the top of the Hugo Boss speed-dial, still speaking four languages, still acting with class, still looks like he's carved out of marble. I'd take that brand of shocking all day long. Good on him I say. People are just jealous.

Folk who don't like them should dry their tears and come up with a plan to beat them rather than bitching like kids who can't reach the door handle.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Ok, do you or do you not agree, that the ref should have been far more strict in that fight? The fight was marred, because Wlad was allowed to pretty much do as he wished. It spoilt the fight, because there would have been a lot more action, if Wlad had been warned often enough to warrant a point deduction, because then he would have been forced to fight, or risk a DQ.

What is the point of having a rulebook if it is ignored when the house fighter is transgressing.

It makes me rather angry.

[JimStone]

Ok, do you or do you not agree, that the ref should have been far more strict in that fight? The fight was marred, because Wlad was allowed to pretty much do as he wished. It spoilt the fight, because there would have been a lot more action, if Wlad had been warned often enough to warrant a point deduction, because then he would have been forced to fight, or risk a DQ.

What is the point of having a rulebook if it is ignored when the house fighter is transgressing.

It makes me rather angry.

Povetkin was the in house fighter.

[Bard of Boxrec]

Ok, do you or do you not agree, that the ref should have been far more strict in that fight? The fight was marred, because Wlad was allowed to pretty much do as he wished. It spoilt the fight, because there would have been a lot more action, if Wlad had been warned often enough to warrant a point deduction, because then he would have been forced to fight, or risk a DQ.

What is the point of having a rulebook if it is ignored when the house fighter is transgressing.

It makes me rather angry.

Povetkin was the in house fighter.

You can't come up with anything to refute his point so you bring up a totally meaningless fact. Everyone knows that location had no bearing on this contest, look at the damn scorecards!

[jamesmcdonnell]

Ok, do you or do you not agree, that the ref should have been far more strict in that fight? The fight was marred, because Wlad was allowed to pretty much do as he wished. It spoilt the fight, because there would have been a lot more action, if Wlad had been warned often enough to warrant a point deduction, because then he would have been forced to fight, or risk a DQ.

What is the point of having a rulebook if it is ignored when the house fighter is transgressing.

It makes me rather angry.

Povetkin was the in house fighter.

Hhahahahah! You clearly have no idea how boxing works if you believe that statement. The promotion was totally handled by the Klitschko's, they would have hired the referee's the fighter, and paid everybody's wages. They chose the location as they figured it would generate more revenue there, not for any other reason. Povetkin was the opponent, nothing more, the Klits call the shots every time they stage a title defence, because they are their own promoters - K2.

http://www.k2promos.com/home/

[jamesmcdonnell]

Aden's right. To return to the Ali-Frazier point. Dundee and Futch did a Fights Of The Century ESPN special in either the late-1980s or early-1990s. When talk turned to the rematch, Futch brought up the holding by the back of the head. Dundee then showed how to negate it, basically using a higher version of a hook block to knock the hand away. Futch may have overlooked it, his face suggested he had, as it was such a simple move. Wlad's not to blame for a poor ref or opponents who lack the fundamentals needed to get beyond his rematch without getting tied up.

And guess what, some fighters don't mind getting tied up, they feel safe in there and Povetkin should be thankful, if it wasn't for that he'd have ended up flat on his back.

Povetkin had a limited chance, if he raised his game, which he didn't, and it's not Wlad's fault that the main challenger to his belts was a pudgy Russian dude who lacked the ability to do anything with him.

What a crock of shite.

That's right, it was so easy to execute, that not one of ali's opponents, or their trainers, ever figured this out. Angelo Dundee was just making excuses for his man.

That's right, it's easy to avoid being grabbed by a split second reaction to knock away and arm, against the fastest and most mobile heavyweight ever to grace the ring - jesus christ, do you actually think before you type?

[dve3333]

Ok, do you or do you not agree, that the ref should have been far more strict in that fight? The fight was marred, because Wlad was allowed to pretty much do as he wished. It spoilt the fight, because there would have been a lot more action, if Wlad had been warned often enough to warrant a point deduction, because then he would have been forced to fight, or risk a DQ.

What is the point of having a rulebook if it is ignored when the house fighter is transgressing.

It makes me rather angry.

Povetkin was the in house fighter.

Hhahahahah! You clearly have no idea how boxing works if you believe that statement. The promotion was totally handled by the Klitschko's, they would have hired the referee's the fighter, and paid everybody's wages. They chose the location as they figured it would generate more revenue there, not for any other reason. Povetkin was the opponent, nothing more, the Klits call the shots every time they stage a title defence, because they are their own promoters - K2.

http://www.k2promos.com/home/

That's the case normally but Russian businessman Andrey Ryabinsky put up the money for promoter Vladimir Hryunov's purse bid of $23.3 million out bidding the K2 bid of $7.1million and it was the Russian outfit who dictated the location of the fight

[Counter-puncher]

[quote="Dead Mouse]It was relatively easy to do, but Ali's genius was that he used fairly simple moved and used them well. Plus he was strong, so if he didn't get the back of your head he'd lock your arms. Ali bent plenty of rules, and fighters will do this if the ref allows them to. .[/quote]

Ali was fantastically good at this kind of sleight-of-arm

Larry Holmes quoted before the Ali fight: 'and ife he wants to wrassle, I'll show him I know a few holds, too'

[Clint Magnum]

Must admit I often defend Wlad but that fight on Saturday left a bad taste in my mouth. The referee was inept to such a degree that it justifies an investigation. That amount of holding has no place in boxing.

What's frustrating is that there's a lot to admire from Wlad: great jab, footwork, lovely lead left hook, and crisp straight right. So why does he hug? Glass chin? I'm not entirely sure. He's a studious, intelligent guy. I think he wants to perfect the art of hitting and not getting hit, simply for health reasons. We fans want to see great fights. He is a boxer who understands the perils of the sport, and the science of it.

I don't blame Wlad for bending the rules, but it's up to officials to ensure the rules are abided by. And if they're not doing that, then they're not up to the job.

100% agree.
Wlad is a great ambassador and role model for the sport outside of the ring but his recent showings have been shocking. I genuinely believe he is becoming bad for the sport.
The commentator even had the audacity to compare Ali's head holding tactic as evidence of previous champs utilising the rules to suit. This was not what Wlad was doing. He was repeatedly cheating, he was committing an illegal tactic over a dozen times in each round. The ref really boiled my water, truly spineless and ruined the only chance Povetkin had.

Ali repeatedly cheated as he’d grab the back of the head then pull the opposing fighter in. He was warned repeatedly for this during the second fight with Frazier, so Rawling was right to bring it up. Ali’d also grab fighters in arm locks and Lewis used the leaning on, although not as much as Wlad did.

That's nowhere near the same comparison. Ali had hold of your head with his right hand but the opponent could still punch to the body with both hands. Plus he did it a handful of times in a fight. The rest of the time he'd use mobility, flexibility and lateral movement. Klitschko did none of these. He literally pulled the opponent down with both his arms over his back and pushed down. Constantly. over a dozen time per round. Woeful reffing.

[Bard of Boxrec]

Regardless of who handled the promotion, the fact is that Wlad was allowed to get away with a shocking amount of fouling in this contest, and anyone who thinks what went on in that ring Saturday night is fair needs to give their head a shake.

And this is coming from someone who bet on Wlad UD.

[orbtastic]

Some people need to watch the last three rounds of Bruno's title winning fight against McCall.