Classic American West Coast Boxing

dagosd2000
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

Randyman wrote:Image

Roberto Duran: Redemption and Legacy

Something I learned years ago, both as an old adage and as a life experience is that “To err is human”, and perhaps the best example of this is Roberto Duran's second fight with Sugar Ray Leonard, when he uttered the now infamous words “No Mas!”, literally translated “No More!”

Duran, at his peak, was the epitome of Latin Machismo. Unrelenting, primal and savage. His behavior inside and outside the ring was often times crude. He conceded nothing. Yet, the very second he spoke those words, all that he was, was no more. His career was thought to be over. He was expected to never fight again. For a time, it seemed the entire boxing world; fans, sports writers, contemporary boxers and everyone capable of expressing an opinion, turned their collective backs on Roberto Duran. Even trainer Ray Arcel turned his back on Duran, never again working the corner for Duran. No other fighter in boxing history, to my knowledge, had fallen so far. Even Mike Tyson's biting of Evander Holifield's ear pales by comparison.

We may never really know why Duran quit that night in New Orleans but the fact remains he did and it is beyond dispute. Maybe he needed a bowel movement, or maybe it was just complete frustration, or maybe it was something sinister. I don't know. No one does. Everything is just pure speculation.

What I do know, what I am absolutely certain of, is that Roberto Duran is no coward. This is the man who moved up to welterweight after a seven year reign, as perhaps the greatest lightweight champion that ever lived, to pursue the Welterweight title, beating west coast favorite former welterweight king, Carlos Palomino, and tough Monroe Brookes, before finally securing a title fight with Sugar Ray Leonard, and winning that fight. He had already proven himself countless times.

He would prove himself again, after the second fight with Leonard, but not before being humbled by Wilfredo Benitez and Kirkland Laing. The year immediately following his 1981 loss to Leonard was a dark time for Duran. For Duran 1981 and1982 was a short visit through hell.

After his back to back losses to Benitez and Laing Duran fought and beat Jimmy Batten. His next fight, in January of 1983, would be at the Olympic Auditorium in Los Angeles against legendary puncher and former welterweight champ Pipino Cuevas. Duran stopped Cuevas in four and secured a fight with Junior middleweight champion Davey Moore, stopping Moore in eight rounds, and finding some redemption in the process. The world was ready to forgive and Duran was once again in the business of being Duran. Maybe not the same old Duran of the past, some of the fire was gone but it was enough to take Marvin Hagler, later that same year, to the 15th round and giving him an education in a close losing effort. Cuevas, Moore and Hagler in the same year. It just doesn't get any better than that.

In his next fight, he would be stopped by Tommy Hearns, in what has to be considered the most devastating loss of his career, he would have many more fights before winning the Middleweight title from Iran Barkley. The Barkley fight would be his last hurrah. He would have his last fight at the age of fifty, losing a 12 round unanimous decision against Hector Camacho.

Today boxers are fighting well into their thirties and forties but back in the day, the late twenties were considered old, or at least the beginning of old age for a fighter. That makes the later stages of Duran's career all the more remarkable. At that stage, with no catch weights (unheard of) Duran moved up and fought Carlos Palomino, Sugar Ray Leonard, Marvin Hagler, Iran Barkley and at an even later stage, Vinnie Pazienza (twice and Hector Camacho (twice).

Yes, quitting is a cardinal sin in boxing and Duran has paid the price. A sin is like a stain on a fine piece of furniture, it can't be rubbed out or sanded out, it cannot be erased, it will always be there. There are some that will see nothing but the stain regardless of the beauty of the furniture and there will be others that will see that fine piece of furniture for what it is, weathered, worn and with a fine patina to it. Hardened by the years Duran has worn that stain like a man.

When I think of Roberto Duran, I don't think about the man that quit in the 8th round of his fight with Sugar Ray Leonard. What I think about is a man who by one single act, destroyed his career and then found it in himself to rise up again, to persevere, shouldering the abandonment of of friends and peers and even his country, to fight his way back to the top, stains and all. No fighter ever fell lower and no fighter ever climbed higher. That is his redemption and that is his legacy. Roberto Duran a quitter? You decide.


Image

Manos De Piedra today
Chuck1052
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by Chuck1052 »

El Gallo wrote:
Chuck1052 wrote:Rick- While I have great reservations about having fathers acting as managers, trainers or cornermen for their children who are boxers, there are some who know the business well and have a positive influence. Moreover, I wonder if a rule prohibiting fathers acting in such capacities for their children is constitutional in the U.S.

I do agree that no child should be pushed into the fight game by any parent. Being a boxer should be an entirely voluntary choice.

- Chuck Johnston

When a child is put into a boxing ring at the age of 3 or 4, and is encouraged to box professionally by the age of 18, they are being guided by an irresponsible father that has issues regarding his own ego. That is the case 99% of the time. This is especially so when the father has boxed and knows boxing, yet did not have what it takes to try the pro ranks themselves. I loved boxing, turned pro at 18 myself, but my father did not push me to do this. It was something I had to beg to do, and as not allowed until my school grades were acceptable. My father was not a serious boxing fan and had no issues that made him feel more like a man because his son was a prizefighter.
I also don't like to see fathers push their sons to be professional athletes in other sports. For example, Todd Marinovich's old man had huge dreams about his son being a quarterback in the National Football League. Todd's father was trying prepare him starting when he was a small child. Todd did play in the NFL for a short period of time, but had some very severe personal problems which included being arrested and jailed for using drugs. I hope that Todd is doing well at the present time.

- Chuck Johnston
Last edited by Chuck1052 on 04 Oct 2013, 23:30, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by bollox »

Randyman wrote:Image

Roberto Duran: Redemption and Legacy

Something I learned years ago, both as an old adage and as a life experience is that “To err is human”, and perhaps the best example of this is Roberto Duran's second fight with Sugar Ray Leonard, when he uttered the now infamous words “No Mas!”, literally translated “No More!”

Duran, at his peak, was the epitome of Latin Machismo. Unrelenting, primal and savage. His behavior inside and outside the ring was often times crude. He conceded nothing. Yet, the very second he spoke those words, all that he was, was no more. His career was thought to be over. He was expected to never fight again. For a time, it seemed the entire boxing world; fans, sports writers, contemporary boxers and everyone capable of expressing an opinion, turned their collective backs on Roberto Duran. Even trainer Ray Arcel turned his back on Duran, never again working the corner for Duran. No other fighter in boxing history, to my knowledge, had fallen so far. Even Mike Tyson's biting of Evander Holifield's ear pales by comparison.

We may never really know why Duran quit that night in New Orleans but the fact remains he did and it is beyond dispute. Maybe he needed a bowel movement, or maybe it was just complete frustration, or maybe it was something sinister. I don't know. No one does. Everything is just pure speculation.

What I do know, what I am absolutely certain of, is that Roberto Duran is no coward. This is the man who moved up to welterweight after a seven year reign, as perhaps the greatest lightweight champion that ever lived, to pursue the Welterweight title, beating west coast favorite former welterweight king, Carlos Palomino, and tough Monroe Brookes, before finally securing a title fight with Sugar Ray Leonard, and winning that fight. He had already proven himself countless times.

He would prove himself again, after the second fight with Leonard, but not before being humbled by Wilfredo Benitez and Kirkland Laing. The year immediately following his 1981 loss to Leonard was a dark time for Duran. For Duran 1981 and1982 was a short visit through hell.

After his back to back losses to Benitez and Laing Duran fought and beat Jimmy Batten. His next fight, in January of 1983, would be at the Olympic Auditorium in Los Angeles against legendary puncher and former welterweight champ Pipino Cuevas. Duran stopped Cuevas in four and secured a fight with Junior middleweight champion Davey Moore, stopping Moore in eight rounds, and finding some redemption in the process. The world was ready to forgive and Duran was once again in the business of being Duran. Maybe not the same old Duran of the past, some of the fire was gone but it was enough to take Marvin Hagler, later that same year, to the 15th round and giving him an education in a close losing effort. Cuevas, Moore and Hagler in the same year. It just doesn't get any better than that.

In his next fight, he would be stopped by Tommy Hearns, in what has to be considered the most devastating loss of his career, he would have many more fights before winning the Middleweight title from Iran Barkley. The Barkley fight would be his last hurrah. He would have his last fight at the age of fifty, losing a 12 round unanimous decision against Hector Camacho.

Today boxers are fighting well into their thirties and forties but back in the day, the late twenties were considered old, or at least the beginning of old age for a fighter. That makes the later stages of Duran's career all the more remarkable. At that stage, with no catch weights (unheard of) Duran moved up and fought Carlos Palomino, Sugar Ray Leonard, Marvin Hagler, Iran Barkley and at an even later stage, Vinnie Pazienza (twice and Hector Camacho (twice).

Yes, quitting is a cardinal sin in boxing and Duran has paid the price. A sin is like a stain on a fine piece of furniture, it can't be rubbed out or sanded out, it cannot be erased, it will always be there. There are some that will see nothing but the stain regardless of the beauty of the furniture and there will be others that will see that fine piece of furniture for what it is, weathered, worn and with a fine patina to it. Hardened by the years Duran has worn that stain like a man.

When I think of Roberto Duran, I don't think about the man that quit in the 8th round of his fight with Sugar Ray Leonard. What I think about is a man who by one single act, destroyed his career and then found it in himself to rise up again, to persevere, shouldering the abandonment of of friends and peers and even his country, to fight his way back to the top, stains and all. No fighter ever fell lower and no fighter ever climbed higher. That is his redemption and that is his legacy. Roberto Duran a quitter? You decide.
A fantastic perspective on Duran. Thank you

We want our fighters to be superhuman yet quite often we pillory them for being mere mortals like the rest of us. Nobody will really know what made Duran stop fighting that night and I'd say Duran himself doesn't know. I despise the word 'quit' when used in boxing as it has suggestive undertones of cowardice. Coward and boxing should never be used together in a sentence when describing the particulars of a fight. It's incredibly insulting

Great fighter, great career :TU:
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

I Want To Be A Macho Man

"Abuelito ,I like the painting you did of the man with the orange face,"said my granddaughter.
Amanda had come into my bedroom. I was lying on my bed watching the baseball playoff game on television.
"I painted that yesterday,"I said.
"Who is he?"
"An old time fighter by the name of Roberto Duran."
"Was he any good?"
"He was one of the best.A legend."
"What made you want to paint him?"
"A friend of mine on the boxing forum wrote an article on him the other day."
"What was the article about?"
"It talked about the rise and fall and then the rise again of Roberto Duran."
"How did he fall?"
"Well Roberto Duran was one of these tough kids who grew up in the barrios of Panama. He was a very aggressive fighter who liked to intimidate his opposition.He wanted to half scare his opposition before they got in the ring.He was a poster child for the 'macho Latino fighter.'"
"So when did he fall?"
"I'm getting to that. Duran was a lightweight champion who moved up to welterweight to fight a guy by the name of Sugar Ray Leonard. Leonard was a black guy who won a gold medal in the Olymoics.He was also the welterweight champion."
"I take it that Duran didn't like him."
"Duran didn't like anyone,especially Leonard. Leonard had made more money in his first pro fight than any of the fights Duran had been in in his career.Like I said Duran was one of these macho guys who saw Leonard as being kind of a hot dog."
"So Duran lost to Leonard?"
"The first time they fought,Duran beat him pretty good. Roughed him up.He won the title and handed Leonard his first loss."
"There was a rematch?"
"Yes,this time Leonard won,or I should say Duran quit."
"Quit?"
"Yes,he quit fighting in the middle of the round. There was a lot of confusion. The ref waved Duran forward at first,but Duran threw up his arm and said,'No Mas.'"
"Why did he quit?"
"Remember Duran was one of these 'macho guys'.He was a 'killer'.The Latino community adored him. During the second fight Leonard was starting to out box Duran. He started to give Duran goofy looks. Wave his arms around and sticking out his tongue at Duran.Duran was getting frustrated chasing him around."
"Who was winning?"
"It was still close,but Duran wanted to exchange and Leonard was content to dance around and out box him. Fight like Floyd Mayweather."
"Who?"
"Nevermind. Anyway, Duran was frustrated and had had enough and quit."
"What did Duran say afterward?"
"I remember he said he had a stomach ache."
"Do you think he was telling the truth?"
"No,and even if he did,it wasn't very macho of him to stop fighting because he had a tummy ache."
"So why did he quit?"
"He didn't want lose looking foolish by Leonard's actions."
"Do you think Duran was scared?"
"No,he wasn't scared,though there have been fighters who've quit because they were scared."
"Did they fight a third fight?"
"Yes,many years later. Leonard won easily. It was an uneventfull fight."
"So the second fight is the one they talk about?"
"Oh they talk about the 'No Mas Fight',but there were others Remember, Duran was a great fighter.He won a lot of big fights."
"So Duran quit because he didn't want to look foolish?"
"Put it this way ,Duran didn't want Leonard to make him look foolish,so he wound up making a fool of himself."
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by Chuck1052 »

I thought that Roberto Duran's peak years were when he was a lightweight. Afterwards, he had some great moments, but it wasn't the same for him.

- Chuck Johnston
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by BoxBuzz »

Sorry to change the subject but my brother and I were discussing something the other day, and I imagine I might get some good info on this from folks who visit this thread. Forgive if it's been answered before.

1.) How did the animosity between Bobby Chacon and Bazooka Limon begin? Was it just media hype or was there something more serious to it? I think most fans were led to believe they had a grudge between them somehow.

2.) Not long ago Boxrec had Chacon losing 8 fights...now it's listed as 7....anyone know why it changed? Was it incorrect for the longest time and someone found the error...or is there some controversy on this subject?

I figured I'd update him on our next coast to coast phone call, if someone can shed light on this.

Thanks.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

Image

Roberto Duran
dagosd2000
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

BoxBuzz wrote:Sorry to change the subject but my brother and I were discussing something the other day, and I imagine I might get some good info on this from folks who visit this thread. Forgive if it's been answered before.

1.) How did the animosity between Bobby Chacon and Bazooka Limon begin? Was it just media hype or was there something more serious to it? I think most fans were led to believe they had a grudge between them somehow.

2.) Not long ago Boxrec had Chacon losing 8 fights...now it's listed as 7....anyone know why it changed? Was it incorrect for the longest time and someone found the error...or is there some controversy on this subject?

I figured I'd update him on our next coast to coast phone call, if someone can shed light on this.

Thanks.

I know Limon didn't care for Chicano fighters especially in LA.Limon was kind of an ugly guy who took pride in it. Ugly ain't so bad in Mexico.It's kind of macho to be a little ugly. Bobby was very popular in the Southland and popular with the women. He was a charmer and a good looking kid. If Rick is out there I'm sure he could embellish on this.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by Randyman »

dagosd2000 wrote:Image

Roberto Duran
Rog, Joe Frazier once compared Duran's eyes to a crazed Charles Manson. You captured it!
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by Randyman »

Chuck1052 wrote:I thought that Roberto Duran's peak years were when he was a lightweight. Afterwards, he had some great moments, but it wasn't the same for him.

- Chuck Johnston
I could not agree more Chuck! :salut:
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by Randyman »

dagosd2000 wrote:I Want To Be A Macho Man

"Abuelito ,I like the painting you did of the man with the orange face,"said my granddaughter.
Amanda had come into my bedroom. I was lying on my bed watching the baseball playoff game on television.
"I painted that yesterday,"I said.
"Who is he?"
"An old time fighter by the name of Roberto Duran."
"Was he any good?"
"He was one of the best.A legend."
"What made you want to paint him?"
"A friend of mine on the boxing forum wrote an article on him the other day."
"What was the article about?"
"It talked about the rise and fall and then the rise again of Roberto Duran."
"How did he fall?"
"Well Roberto Duran was one of these tough kids who grew up in the barrios of Panama. He was a very aggressive fighter who liked to intimidate his opposition.He wanted to half scare his opposition before they got in the ring.He was a poster child for the 'macho Latino fighter.'"
"So when did he fall?"
"I'm getting to that. Duran was a lightweight champion who moved up to welterweight to fight a guy by the name of Sugar Ray Leonard. Leonard was a black guy who won a gold medal in the Olymoics.He was also the welterweight champion."
"I take it that Duran didn't like him."
"Duran didn't like anyone,especially Leonard. Leonard had made more money in his first pro fight than any of the fights Duran had been in in his career.Like I said Duran was one of these macho guys who saw Leonard as being kind of a hot dog."
"So Duran lost to Leonard?"
"The first time they fought,Duran beat him pretty good. Roughed him up.He won the title and handed Leonard his first loss."
"There was a rematch?"
"Yes,this time Leonard won,or I should say Duran quit."
"Quit?"
"Yes,he quit fighting in the middle of the round. There was a lot of confusion. The ref waved Duran forward at first,but Duran threw up his arm and said,'No Mas.'"
"Why did he quit?"
"Remember Duran was one of these 'macho guys'.He was a 'killer'.The Latino community adored him. During the second fight Leonard was starting to out box Duran. He started to give Duran goofy looks. Wave his arms around and sticking out his tongue at Duran.Duran was getting frustrated chasing him around."
"Who was winning?"
"It was still close,but Duran wanted to exchange and Leonard was content to dance around and out box him. Fight like Floyd Mayweather."
"Who?"
"Nevermind. Anyway, Duran was frustrated and had had enough and quit."
"What did Duran say afterward?"
"I remember he said he had a stomach ache."
"Do you think he was telling the truth?"
"No,and even if he did,it wasn't very macho of him to stop fighting because he had a tummy ache."
"So why did he quit?"
"He didn't want lose looking foolish by Leonard's actions."
"Do you think Duran was scared?"
"No,he wasn't scared,though there have been fighters who've quit because they were scared."
"Did they fight a third fight?"
"Yes,many years later. Leonard won easily. It was an uneventfull fight."
"So the second fight is the one they talk about?"
"Oh they talk about the 'No Mas Fight',but there were others Remember, Duran was a great fighter.He won a lot of big fights."
"So Duran quit because he didn't want to look foolish?"
"Put it this way ,Duran didn't want Leonard to make him look foolish,so he wound up making a fool of himself."
That's probably the essence of it Rog, I would add, and this is just pure speculation on my part, that Duran, might have felt - incorrectly -that the fight crowd would stand behind his decision to walk away from such a fight. It took but a few seconds to realize he made the mistake of a lifetime.

Also, according to Ray Arcel, Duran never said he was having stomach problems. Arcel, completely dumbfounded by what had happened made that statement when asked about Duran's quitting. It was probably the last loyal act by Arcel before resigning as his trainer.

Great story Rog!! :bow:
Last edited by Randyman on 06 Oct 2013, 16:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by Randyman »

bollox wrote:
Randyman wrote:Image

Roberto Duran: Redemption and Legacy

Something I learned years ago, both as an old adage and as a life experience is that “To err is human”, and perhaps the best example of this is Roberto Duran's second fight with Sugar Ray Leonard, when he uttered the now infamous words “No Mas!”, literally translated “No More!”

Duran, at his peak, was the epitome of Latin Machismo. Unrelenting, primal and savage. His behavior inside and outside the ring was often times crude. He conceded nothing. Yet, the very second he spoke those words, all that he was, was no more. His career was thought to be over. He was expected to never fight again. For a time, it seemed the entire boxing world; fans, sports writers, contemporary boxers and everyone capable of expressing an opinion, turned their collective backs on Roberto Duran. Even trainer Ray Arcel turned his back on Duran, never again working the corner for Duran. No other fighter in boxing history, to my knowledge, had fallen so far. Even Mike Tyson's biting of Evander Holifield's ear pales by comparison.

We may never really know why Duran quit that night in New Orleans but the fact remains he did and it is beyond dispute. Maybe he needed a bowel movement, or maybe it was just complete frustration, or maybe it was something sinister. I don't know. No one does. Everything is just pure speculation.

What I do know, what I am absolutely certain of, is that Roberto Duran is no coward. This is the man who moved up to welterweight after a seven year reign, as perhaps the greatest lightweight champion that ever lived, to pursue the Welterweight title, beating west coast favorite former welterweight king, Carlos Palomino, and tough Monroe Brookes, before finally securing a title fight with Sugar Ray Leonard, and winning that fight. He had already proven himself countless times.

He would prove himself again, after the second fight with Leonard, but not before being humbled by Wilfredo Benitez and Kirkland Laing. The year immediately following his 1981 loss to Leonard was a dark time for Duran. For Duran 1981 and1982 was a short visit through hell.

After his back to back losses to Benitez and Laing Duran fought and beat Jimmy Batten. His next fight, in January of 1983, would be at the Olympic Auditorium in Los Angeles against legendary puncher and former welterweight champ Pipino Cuevas. Duran stopped Cuevas in four and secured a fight with Junior middleweight champion Davey Moore, stopping Moore in eight rounds, and finding some redemption in the process. The world was ready to forgive and Duran was once again in the business of being Duran. Maybe not the same old Duran of the past, some of the fire was gone but it was enough to take Marvin Hagler, later that same year, to the 15th round and giving him an education in a close losing effort. Cuevas, Moore and Hagler in the same year. It just doesn't get any better than that.

In his next fight, he would be stopped by Tommy Hearns, in what has to be considered the most devastating loss of his career, he would have many more fights before winning the Middleweight title from Iran Barkley. The Barkley fight would be his last hurrah. He would have his last fight at the age of fifty, losing a 12 round unanimous decision against Hector Camacho.

Today boxers are fighting well into their thirties and forties but back in the day, the late twenties were considered old, or at least the beginning of old age for a fighter. That makes the later stages of Duran's career all the more remarkable. At that stage, with no catch weights (unheard of) Duran moved up and fought Carlos Palomino, Sugar Ray Leonard, Marvin Hagler, Iran Barkley and at an even later stage, Vinnie Pazienza (twice and Hector Camacho (twice).

Yes, quitting is a cardinal sin in boxing and Duran has paid the price. A sin is like a stain on a fine piece of furniture, it can't be rubbed out or sanded out, it cannot be erased, it will always be there. There are some that will see nothing but the stain regardless of the beauty of the furniture and there will be others that will see that fine piece of furniture for what it is, weathered, worn and with a fine patina to it. Hardened by the years Duran has worn that stain like a man.

When I think of Roberto Duran, I don't think about the man that quit in the 8th round of his fight with Sugar Ray Leonard. What I think about is a man who by one single act, destroyed his career and then found it in himself to rise up again, to persevere, shouldering the abandonment of of friends and peers and even his country, to fight his way back to the top, stains and all. No fighter ever fell lower and no fighter ever climbed higher. That is his redemption and that is his legacy. Roberto Duran a quitter? You decide.
A fantastic perspective on Duran. Thank you

We want our fighters to be superhuman yet quite often we pillory them for being mere mortals like the rest of us. Nobody will really know what made Duran stop fighting that night and I'd say Duran himself doesn't know. I despise the word 'quit' when used in boxing as it has suggestive undertones of cowardice. Coward and boxing should never be used together in a sentence when describing the particulars of a fight. It's incredibly insulting

Great fighter, great career :TU:
Thank you Bollox. yes, we want them to do what the rest of us would not or could not do. Such is human behavior. I always refer to Jerry Quarry who once said, "No coward ever stepped into the ring!".
Last edited by Randyman on 08 Oct 2013, 11:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by Randyman »

dagosd2000 wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote:Sorry to change the subject but my brother and I were discussing something the other day, and I imagine I might get some good info on this from folks who visit this thread. Forgive if it's been answered before.

1.) How did the animosity between Bobby Chacon and Bazooka Limon begin? Was it just media hype or was there something more serious to it? I think most fans were led to believe they had a grudge between them somehow.

2.) Not long ago Boxrec had Chacon losing 8 fights...now it's listed as 7....anyone know why it changed? Was it incorrect for the longest time and someone found the error...or is there some controversy on this subject?

I figured I'd update him on our next coast to coast phone call, if someone can shed light on this.

Thanks.

I know Limon didn't care for Chicano fighters especially in LA.Limon was kind of an ugly guy who took pride in it. Ugly ain't so bad in Mexico.It's kind of macho to be a little ugly. Bobby was very popular in the Southland and popular with the women. He was a charmer and a good looking kid. If Rick is out there I'm sure he could embellish on this.
There was a similar feeling when Alberto Davila and Lupe Pintor fought. I remember seeing a poster for their fight billed as Mexican vs Chicano.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by Randyman »

dagosd2000 wrote:
Randyman wrote:Image

Roberto Duran: Redemption and Legacy

Something I learned years ago, both as an old adage and as a life experience is that “To err is human”, and perhaps the best example of this is Roberto Duran's second fight with Sugar Ray Leonard, when he uttered the now infamous words “No Mas!”, literally translated “No More!”

Duran, at his peak, was the epitome of Latin Machismo. Unrelenting, primal and savage. His behavior inside and outside the ring was often times crude. He conceded nothing. Yet, the very second he spoke those words, all that he was, was no more. His career was thought to be over. He was expected to never fight again. For a time, it seemed the entire boxing world; fans, sports writers, contemporary boxers and everyone capable of expressing an opinion, turned their collective backs on Roberto Duran. Even trainer Ray Arcel turned his back on Duran, never again working the corner for Duran. No other fighter in boxing history, to my knowledge, had fallen so far. Even Mike Tyson's biting of Evander Holifield's ear pales by comparison.

We may never really know why Duran quit that night in New Orleans but the fact remains he did and it is beyond dispute. Maybe he needed a bowel movement, or maybe it was just complete frustration, or maybe it was something sinister. I don't know. No one does. Everything is just pure speculation.

What I do know, what I am absolutely certain of, is that Roberto Duran is no coward. This is the man who moved up to welterweight after a seven year reign, as perhaps the greatest lightweight champion that ever lived, to pursue the Welterweight title, beating west coast favorite former welterweight king, Carlos Palomino, and tough Monroe Brookes, before finally securing a title fight with Sugar Ray Leonard, and winning that fight. He had already proven himself countless times.

He would prove himself again, after the second fight with Leonard, but not before being humbled by Wilfredo Benitez and Kirkland Laing. The year immediately following his 1981 loss to Leonard was a dark time for Duran. For Duran 1981 and1982 was a short visit through hell.

After his back to back losses to Benitez and Laing Duran fought and beat Jimmy Batten. His next fight, in January of 1983, would be at the Olympic Auditorium in Los Angeles against legendary puncher and former welterweight champ Pipino Cuevas. Duran stopped Cuevas in four and secured a fight with Junior middleweight champion Davey Moore, stopping Moore in eight rounds, and finding some redemption in the process. The world was ready to forgive and Duran was once again in the business of being Duran. Maybe not the same old Duran of the past, some of the fire was gone but it was enough to take Marvin Hagler, later that same year, to the 15th round and giving him an education in a close losing effort. Cuevas, Moore and Hagler in the same year. It just doesn't get any better than that.

In his next fight, he would be stopped by Tommy Hearns, in what has to be considered the most devastating loss of his career, he would have many more fights before winning the Middleweight title from Iran Barkley. The Barkley fight would be his last hurrah. He would have his last fight at the age of fifty, losing a 12 round unanimous decision against Hector Camacho.

Today boxers are fighting well into their thirties and forties but back in the day, the late twenties were considered old, or at least the beginning of old age for a fighter. That makes the later stages of Duran's career all the more remarkable. At that stage, with no catch weights (unheard of) Duran moved up and fought Carlos Palomino, Sugar Ray Leonard, Marvin Hagler, Iran Barkley and at an even later stage, Vinnie Pazienza (twice and Hector Camacho (twice).

Yes, quitting is a cardinal sin in boxing and Duran has paid the price. A sin is like a stain on a fine piece of furniture, it can't be rubbed out or sanded out, it cannot be erased, it will always be there. There are some that will see nothing but the stain regardless of the beauty of the furniture and there will be others that will see that fine piece of furniture for what it is, weathered, worn and with a fine patina to it. Hardened by the years Duran has worn that stain like a man.

When I think of Roberto Duran, I don't think about the man that quit in the 8th round of his fight with Sugar Ray Leonard. What I think about is a man who by one single act, destroyed his career and then found it in himself to rise up again, to persevere, shouldering the abandonment of of friends and peers and even his country, to fight his way back to the top, stains and all. No fighter ever fell lower and no fighter ever climbed higher. That is his redemption and that is his legacy. Roberto Duran a quitter? You decide.


Image

Manos De Piedra today
:TU: :bow:
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

Pug Corner

I liked to watch the Odd Couple on TV with Jack Klugman and Tony Randall. I remember one episode where Felix(Tony Randall) visits Oscar(Jack Klugman) at his office at the newspaper building.Oscar's office is an extension of his disoraganized personality.Oscar is one of the highest profile sports reporters in the nation,but he's a chronic mess.

Felix is nosing around and asks Oscar the names of the athletes whose pictures are hung crookedly on the wall. Oscar starts answering Felix's inquiries with his usual lack of patience. Then Felix moves to a corner of the room and sees a group of photographs of old time fighters.
"Who are these guys?"asks Mr. Anal Retentive.
Jack Klugman,who I thought was typed cast for the role of Oscar,sighs, smiles, and in a tender tone says,"This is something special. I named it 'Pug Corner' ".
Nothing more needed to be said. Felix looked at the photographs. He was a photographer. He understood a face.

Nice touch.Nice moment.

Image

Bobby and Rosie with my painting. Sometimes I can do something right.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

Amber Light

Long before I began painting ,I had always admired someone who could paint a picture,especially of a human being. I stumbled upon my adventures with the paint brush by accident,or more I should say, by necessity.

Many years ago I was going to Tijuana to have some art done by a local artist. He would paint images on onyx slates which was quite common down there then.I would give the images to his boss,his boss would give the pictures to the artist, and when finished,I would pay for the work. I never got to see the artist in person. His boss wouldn't allow me to see him. The finished product was very good. Some better than others,but most was to my satisfaction. One time I wanted to have an image of my father painted. The picture I had of my father was when he was at Okinawa in the war. The image was very small. I left the picture with the artist's boss. When I came back at the end of the week,the boss said the artist couldn't capture the face of my father because it was too small on the picture. So I took the picture back home and I tried painting it.To my amazement what I had done on the piece of onyx looked like my father.

But before that revelation,I had longed to be an artist. Everytime I saw a painting,good or bad,I was envious. One day as I was walking around stumbling into the different bars on Revolucion Street in Tijuana I happened into a little joint called "El Prado".The place was small dark and empty. I almost turned around and walked out,but out of the corner of my eye I saw some oil paintings hanging on the wall illuminated by an amber light.It was the brightest part of the room. They were paintings of fighters. There were four of them.From left to right they were Raton Macias,Lauro Salas,Jose Napoles,and Archie Moore. They were brilliant. They were haunting. It didn't seem right that they were in there. The paintings were around 16 by 20 inches. I couldn't take my eyes off them .I was trying to see something in them that would turn me away. I wanted those paintings.

There was a middle age women behind the bar. I ordered a drink and asked her about the paintings. She told that they were her husband's. He had died recently and she was interested in selling the bar. She didn't know who the artist was,but when I asked her if she would just sell me the paintings she said she had too much emotional attachment to them.

My sister in law's husband owned a bar around the corner from her place. They both knew the lady and her late husband. I asked them to work on her to sell the paintings. They said that she wouldn't let go of them.

A few years later my sister in law told me that the lady had found a buyer for the bar. It had been in new hands for about a year. I went back to the bar. The inside was the same except the paintings were gone. I asked the bartender if he knew where the paintings were. He told me that he didn't know what I was talking about.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

Image

Ray Leonard
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

Rocky By By

My son,Ramon, settled in Los Angeles after graduating from high school. He took a course in culinary arts and studied to be a chef. My son always had a penchant for working in a posh joint and living the good life.He did an apprenticeship at a bistro in Beverly Hills near Rodeo Drive. I can't recall the name of the place and I never went up there to how he was doing. His mother went once and said Ramon was very busy learning the restaurant trade. Eventually he went in with a friend in an eatery somewhere near he had worked formally.They wound up selling the place and now Ramon is selling beauty salon supplies to the finer establishments in the area.


Ramon stays to himself mostly and comes down to San Diego for Thanksgiving , Christmas,and his mother's birthday. Sometimes he'll pop in unannounced. His mother is always very happy to see him. I am too,but I know Ramon is closer to his mother.

I can't remember when Ramon told this story. I don't know if it when he was working as an apprentice chef or when he had his own place,but it was corraborated by people who saw it. Ramon said that Sylvester Stallone would come by the kitchen door and pester one of the waitresses. It became annoying and was disrupting business.Now my son was around 160 pounds and still in his wrestling shape that he was in in high school when this incident occurred. Ramon is also a real nice guy unless you get on his nerves. Then he'll get real upset. I guess one night Sly came to the back door once to often. My son had had enough of this guy.He made it short and to the point. He told Rocky to get his ass out of there and not to come back or he was going to kick his ass.Rocky didn't dispute the point.

I sure wish my son would come down to visit more often.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

Image

Sylvester Stallone. A pale imitation of Rocky Balboa.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by El Gallo »

"El Boxeo" comes to Hollywood as part of the Los Angeles Latino International Film Festival.

"El Boxeo" will be shown this Friday evening at 8 PM.
The screening will take place at the TCL 6 Theatres at 6801 Hollywood Boulevard.
This is a new state-of-the-art facility which is adjacent to the TCL Chinese Theatre (formerly known as Grauman's Chinese Theatre).
For tickets contact Rick Farris:
[email protected]/310-482-1811

-Alan Swyer
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by El Gallo »

Randyman wrote:
dagosd2000 wrote:Image

Roberto Duran
Rog, Joe Frazier once compared Duran's eyes to a crazed Charles Manson. You captured it!

I saw them, right behind his "Manos de Piedra". Up close & personal! 1973.
I just realized, many of us have been in the ring with great fighters,
but how many moved with one this great? Not Kiki Baltazar! :lol: He wouldn't have a clue. ;;-)
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by kikibalt »

Mental illness is a bitch!!
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

Randyman wrote:
dagosd2000 wrote:I Want To Be A Macho Man

"Abuelito ,I like the painting you did of the man with the orange face,"said my granddaughter.
Amanda had come into my bedroom. I was lying on my bed watching the baseball playoff game on television.
"I painted that yesterday,"I said.
"Who is he?"
"An old time fighter by the name of Roberto Duran."
"Was he any good?"
"He was one of the best.A legend."
"What made you want to paint him?"
"A friend of mine on the boxing forum wrote an article on him the other day."
"What was the article about?"
"It talked about the rise and fall and then the rise again of Roberto Duran."
"How did he fall?"
"Well Roberto Duran was one of these tough kids who grew up in the barrios of Panama. He was a very aggressive fighter who liked to intimidate his opposition.He wanted to half scare his opposition before they got in the ring.He was a poster child for the 'macho Latino fighter.'"
"So when did he fall?"
"I'm getting to that. Duran was a lightweight champion who moved up to welterweight to fight a guy by the name of Sugar Ray Leonard. Leonard was a black guy who won a gold medal in the Olymoics.He was also the welterweight champion."
"I take it that Duran didn't like him."
"Duran didn't like anyone,especially Leonard. Leonard had made more money in his first pro fight than any of the fights Duran had been in in his career.Like I said Duran was one of these macho guys who saw Leonard as being kind of a hot dog."
"So Duran lost to Leonard?"
"The first time they fought,Duran beat him pretty good. Roughed him up.He won the title and handed Leonard his first loss."
"There was a rematch?"
"Yes,this time Leonard won,or I should say Duran quit."
"Quit?"
"Yes,he quit fighting in the middle of the round. There was a lot of confusion. The ref waved Duran forward at first,but Duran threw up his arm and said,'No Mas.'"
"Why did he quit?"
"Remember Duran was one of these 'macho guys'.He was a 'killer'.The Latino community adored him. During the second fight Leonard was starting to out box Duran. He started to give Duran goofy looks. Wave his arms around and sticking out his tongue at Duran.Duran was getting frustrated chasing him around."
"Who was winning?"
"It was still close,but Duran wanted to exchange and Leonard was content to dance around and out box him. Fight like Floyd Mayweather."
"Who?"
"Nevermind. Anyway, Duran was frustrated and had had enough and quit."
"What did Duran say afterward?"
"I remember he said he had a stomach ache."
"Do you think he was telling the truth?"
"No,and even if he did,it wasn't very macho of him to stop fighting because he had a tummy ache."
"So why did he quit?"
"He didn't want lose looking foolish by Leonard's actions."
"Do you think Duran was scared?"
"No,he wasn't scared,though there have been fighters who've quit because they were scared."
"Did they fight a third fight?"
"Yes,many years later. Leonard won easily. It was an uneventfull fight."
"So the second fight is the one they talk about?"
"Oh they talk about the 'No Mas Fight',but there were others Remember, Duran was a great fighter.He won a lot of big fights."
"So Duran quit because he didn't want to look foolish?"
"Put it this way ,Duran didn't want Leonard to make him look foolish,so he wound up making a fool of himself."
That's probably the essence of it Rog, I would add, and this is just pure speculation on my part, that Duran, might have felt - incorrectly -that the fight crowd would stand behind his decision to walk away from such a fight. It took but a few seconds to realize he made the mistake of a lifetime.

Also, according to Ray Arcel, Duran never said he was having stomach problems. Arcel, completely dumbfounded by what had happened made that statement when asked about Duran's quitting. It was probably the last loyal act by Arcel before resigning as his trainer.

Great story Rog!! :bow:

Thanks Randy.You know Jose Napoles was my guy. I thought he was the most beautifull thing to watch in a boxing ring,but in order to be true to myself,I say that Matequilla got his ass kicked by Mando Muniz the first time and should have lost his title. I know he had nothing to do with that,but some aficianados look the other way. But when Mantequilla didn't come out of his corner against Monzon,my heart sank. Jose knew that Monzon was going to finish him off in the next round so he quit in his corner. Call it cowardness. I'll use that word because it is the probably the most distastefull word you can accuse a fighter of.There are many other things in life that take more guts than climbing into a boxing ring. Just being a husband and father providing for your family takes more guts. There have been many fighters who were tigers in the ring ,but pussied out when it came to being a good father and husband. I know there have been both,but this thing of a fighter being(in many minds)the ultimate symbol of being a man is ridiculous. Fighters don't become fighters because they want to prove their manhood. They do it because it's a way to make a living. They aren't testing their "manliness" when they get into the ring. They want to make a buck. Some think it's actually easier to get a payday boxing than working for a living. Ray Robinson,who's considered pound for pound the best,never worked a day in his life after retiring(he was still in his 40's) and ducked out of the army during WWII.
And he was a shitty husband and father. (his wife and kids will attest to that). What do you want to call that?

I was more afraid getting into street fights than when I went up against Ken Norton in three sparring sessions. I knew there were rules to go by and if he was getting the best of me they would stop it or I would quit. In a street fight there are no rules. Maybe the other guy has a gun or a knife. Maybe he'll want to gouge my eyes out. Or perhaps his friends will jump in. I've been on the other end of that scenario.

Got that off my chest. Who's going to the CBHOF banquet Oct.19? I'll be at Tiger Smalls' table. Hope to see my friends there. Rog :TU:
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by El Gallo »

kikibalt wrote:Mental illness is a bitch!!

It must be tough on you.
Maybe now that Obama Care is active, you can get some psychological help?
I don't think you are mentally ill, just a weak ego and thin skin.
You must have been gelded early in your 16 year career as an amateur.
Fighting children when you are in your late 20's? Disgusting! :shame:
But I guess that beat working for a living. Kept man, and proud of it.
The system takes care of you right? Didn't you boast on-line of using your food stamps to by alcohol?
Proud American you are!
Call Don Fraser and give him your report. Your excused!
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by Cholo »

El Gallo wrote:
kikibalt wrote:Mental illness is a bitch!!

It must be tough on you.
Maybe now that Obama Care is active, you can get some psychological help?
I don't think you are mentally ill, just a weak ego and thin skin.
You must have been gelded early in your 16 year career as an amateur.
Fighting children when you are in your late 20's? Disgusting! :shame:
But I guess that beat working for a living. Kept man, and proud of it.
The system takes care of you right? Didn't you boast on-line of using your food stamps to by alcohol?
Proud American you are!
Call Don Fraser and give him your report. Your excused!
:lol: :lol:
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