Did Ali really hit his "Peak"?

yancey
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Re: Did Ali really hit his "Peak"?

Post by yancey »

Il Duce wrote:C'mon,

In February 1964 Sonny was a 'financial wreck' at the time, and Cassius wasn't all that good in that fight.

The 'smell' after that fight floated in the air all over the World........

That bad smell was actually topped by the 'stink' in Lewiston, Maine 'fiasco' in May 1965.

Floyd had a 'severely damaged back' entering that bout in Las Vegas, and he had been
bombed to the canvas several times in sparring sessions with 'King' Jimmy Fletcher
in November 1965.

Floyd's back was so bad, he couldn't fight for 6-Months prior to the November 22, 1965
bout with Cassius, and then required nearly 10-Months rest before re-entering the Ring
back in October 1966 with Henry Cooper.

Still, it took a Referee to halt that bout with Floyd still on his feet.

Yea, so impressive.......... :roll:
Once again, Duce is right on the money here.

Both Liston fights stunk, with the mega-stench from the Lewiston fight still sending people up in Maine to the hospital to this day. :D

In fact, the D.O.D. looked into canning the stench to be used as a weapon of war. :lol:

Patterson had terrible back problems in the first Ali fight. Trainer Al Silvani lifted Floyd up and down between rounds trying to alleviate the problem.

Not saying Floyd beats Ali, but the truth is the truth.
Giancarlo
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Re: Did Ali really hit his "Peak"?

Post by Giancarlo »

The Great John L wrote:Oh, I forgot this is Boxrec. If you don't like the result, just makeup excuses.
Very true.
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Re: Did Ali really hit his "Peak"?

Post by BoxBuzz »

Il Duce wrote:Mr. Yancey,

Did you get the feeling that nearly every Cassius Clay bout back then was like a Sideshow in a Circus.

* February 1964 - Fiasco in Florida, As Sonny Dives But Misses The Atlantic Ocean {Miami Beach}

* May 1965 - The Greatest Hoax Ever Perpetrated On The Public {Lewiston, Maine}

* November 1965 - A Terrible Display Of Championship Boxing Over A Fighter Nearly Able To Walk {Las Vegas}

* March 1966 - Canadian Bacon, As George Chuvalo Had Lost His Previous Bout To Eduardo Corletti {Toronto}

* May 1966 - What Round Will Henry Cooper Start Bleeding {England}

* August 1966 - Cassius Clay Scrapes The Bottom Of The Barrel For A Challenger, As Brian London Falls Down {England}

* September 1966 - German Streudel, As Karl Mildenberger Goes Down From Light-Pastry Right Hands {Germany}

* November 1966 - Shot Down In The Astrodome, As A One-Legged, Literally Shot 'Big Cat' Has No More Lives {Houston}

* February 1967 - The Best Of A Mediocre Bunch, As The 6' 6" Gangling String-Bean Ernie Terrell Goes The Distance {Houston}

* March 1967 - Zora Zapped, As A Worn Out '36 Year-Old' Zora Folley Looks Like He Was Wearing Cement Shoes {New York}
And even those were paid for "Carnera Style". He was no better than Joe the Plumber at the game of boxing. Why wasn't he exposed for what he was? The truth is out there! Let's not forget that he was beaten by a blind Joe Frazier in their first fight. Joe was only a shadow of what he was in his previous fight, he had nothing left, AND he was still able to get the win from the hapless Ali. Few people know that Frazier took almost everything out of Foreman, Foreman broke all the bones in his arm when he demolished Frazier in their first go round, thus making it easy for Ali to slip by him in their fight. The ONLY genuine fights Ali ever had was with Berbick, Spinks I, Norton I, and with Larry Holmes. And to be honest, Holmes was only a shell of his former self after his close win, but complete thrashing at the hands of Norton. His other two "wins" over Frazier? Two words for you..."Blind" and "Blinder".

Don't even get me started with the circus shows of Lyle, Shavers, Bonavena, and any other so called "W" he has on his record. Doug Jones beat the bejabbers out of him, and Cooper knocked him out....if you don't count the 1/2 hour break they gave Ali to get back into the game.


That gold medal that he "threw in the river"?......You know why no one's ever seen it since? Because it never existed! The whole Olympics thing was a work of fiction created by Elvis, in conjunction with Space Aliens. Just play the third cut of the second side of Abby Road backwards it spells all of this out. (For even more of an eerie experience just play the White Album while watching the movie "When we were Kings" It explains detail for detail just how they got away with creating the entire work of fiction.
yancey
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Re: Did Ali really hit his "Peak"?

Post by yancey »

Il Duce wrote:Mr. Yancey,

Did you get the feeling that nearly every Cassius Clay bout back then was like a Sideshow in a Circus.

* February 1964 - Fiasco in Florida, As Sonny Dives But Misses The Atlantic Ocean {Miami Beach}

* May 1965 - The Greatest Hoax Ever Perpetrated On The Public {Lewiston, Maine}

* November 1965 - A Terrible Display Of Championship Boxing Over A Fighter Nearly Able To Walk {Las Vegas}

* March 1966 - Canadian Bacon, As George Chuvalo Had Lost His Previous Bout To Eduardo Corletti {Toronto}

* May 1966 - What Round Will Henry Cooper Start Bleeding {England}

* August 1966 - Cassius Clay Scrapes The Bottom Of The Barrel For A Challenger, As Brian London Falls Down {England}

* September 1966 - German Streudel, As Karl Mildenberger Goes Down From Light-Pastry Right Hands {Germany}

* November 1966 - Shot Down In The Astrodome, As A One-Legged, Literally Shot 'Big Cat' Has No More Lives {Houston}

* February 1967 - The Best Of A Mediocre Bunch, As The 6' 6" Gangling String-Bean Ernie Terrell Goes The Distance {Houston}

* March 1967 - Zora Zapped, As A Worn Out '36 Year-Old' Zora Folley Looks Like He Was Wearing Cement Shoes {New York}

:lol: :lol:

:TU:

Like it or not, there is a great deal of truth here.
hhaehre
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Re: Did Ali really hit his "Peak"?

Post by hhaehre »

yancey wrote:
Il Duce wrote:Mr. Yancey,

Did you get the feeling that nearly every Cassius Clay bout back then was like a Sideshow in a Circus.

* February 1964 - Fiasco in Florida, As Sonny Dives But Misses The Atlantic Ocean {Miami Beach}

* May 1965 - The Greatest Hoax Ever Perpetrated On The Public {Lewiston, Maine}

* November 1965 - A Terrible Display Of Championship Boxing Over A Fighter Nearly Able To Walk {Las Vegas}

* March 1966 - Canadian Bacon, As George Chuvalo Had Lost His Previous Bout To Eduardo Corletti {Toronto}

* May 1966 - What Round Will Henry Cooper Start Bleeding {England}

* August 1966 - Cassius Clay Scrapes The Bottom Of The Barrel For A Challenger, As Brian London Falls Down {England}

* September 1966 - German Streudel, As Karl Mildenberger Goes Down From Light-Pastry Right Hands {Germany}

* November 1966 - Shot Down In The Astrodome, As A One-Legged, Literally Shot 'Big Cat' Has No More Lives {Houston}

* February 1967 - The Best Of A Mediocre Bunch, As The 6' 6" Gangling String-Bean Ernie Terrell Goes The Distance {Houston}

* March 1967 - Zora Zapped, As A Worn Out '36 Year-Old' Zora Folley Looks Like He Was Wearing Cement Shoes {New York}

:lol: :lol:

:TU:

Like it or not, there is a great deal of truth here.
Not really and God knows I'm no great Ali apologetic.
yancey
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Re: Did Ali really hit his "Peak"?

Post by yancey »

hhaehre wrote:
yancey wrote:
Il Duce wrote:Mr. Yancey,

Did you get the feeling that nearly every Cassius Clay bout back then was like a Sideshow in a Circus.

* February 1964 - Fiasco in Florida, As Sonny Dives But Misses The Atlantic Ocean {Miami Beach}

* May 1965 - The Greatest Hoax Ever Perpetrated On The Public {Lewiston, Maine}

* November 1965 - A Terrible Display Of Championship Boxing Over A Fighter Nearly Able To Walk {Las Vegas}

* March 1966 - Canadian Bacon, As George Chuvalo Had Lost His Previous Bout To Eduardo Corletti {Toronto}

* May 1966 - What Round Will Henry Cooper Start Bleeding {England}

* August 1966 - Cassius Clay Scrapes The Bottom Of The Barrel For A Challenger, As Brian London Falls Down {England}

* September 1966 - German Streudel, As Karl Mildenberger Goes Down From Light-Pastry Right Hands {Germany}

* November 1966 - Shot Down In The Astrodome, As A One-Legged, Literally Shot 'Big Cat' Has No More Lives {Houston}

* February 1967 - The Best Of A Mediocre Bunch, As The 6' 6" Gangling String-Bean Ernie Terrell Goes The Distance {Houston}

* March 1967 - Zora Zapped, As A Worn Out '36 Year-Old' Zora Folley Looks Like He Was Wearing Cement Shoes {New York}

:lol: :lol:

:TU:

Like it or not, there is a great deal of truth here.
Not really and God knows I'm no great Ali apologetic.
Which one of that line up impresses you, hhaehre?

Please keep in mind the stage of their career, condition on fight night, motivation, etc.
Last edited by yancey on 30 Jul 2013, 21:16, edited 2 times in total.
yancey
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Re: Did Ali really hit his "Peak"?

Post by yancey »

Il Duce wrote:The fight everybody wanted in 1966

Cassius Clay vs. Amos 'Big Train' Lincoln...........in Los Angeles, California or the Streets of Watts.

Amos was a 'crazy kind of dangerous'.

October 1, 1966

*** Cassius Clay {WBC Champion}
#1... Ernie Terrell {WBA Champion}
#2... Zora Folley
#3... Thad Spencer
#4... Amos Lincoln
#5... Cleveland Williams
#6... Karl Mildenberger
#7... Doug Jones
#8... Henry Cooper
#9... Oscar Bonavena
#10. George Chuvalo

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... yh9lNgcwgQ
#10 takes #8 any day of the week, in my view.

btw, where was Patterson in these 10/66 ratings?

He absolutely devastated Cooper in 9/66 in my favorite Floyd performance.

Must have been a bit of a gap considering printing times.
BoxBuzz
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Re: Did Ali really hit his "Peak"?

Post by BoxBuzz »

So for anyone following this conversation just wander over and take a gander at ol' Lincoln's resume. He was one of the greats no doubt. And the work it took to keep him down, and to keep his name out of the papers so that Ali could continue with his charade, is quite remarkable.

A refreshing dose of reality.
Ambling Alp II
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Re: Did Ali really hit his "Peak"?

Post by Ambling Alp II »

I think we are all starting to appreciate Il Duce's logic.
Obviously Ali was terrified of the great Amos Lincoln. In Ali's career he only beat 8 of the 10 top contenders listed.
However, no Amos Lincoln.

Too bad it didn't happen. As Il Duce said "everybody" wanted to see that fight.
Interesting that the next year Lincoln did have a fight vs that horrible Karl Mildenberger who Ali did fight and beat.
Guess what? Mildenberger stopped Lincoln in 6 rounds. Huh. How could that have happened? Must be that styles makes fights thing.
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Re: Did Ali really hit his "Peak"?

Post by hhaehre »

yancey wrote:
hhaehre wrote:
yancey wrote:

:lol: :lol:

:TU:

Like it or not, there is a great deal of truth here.
Not really and God knows I'm no great Ali apologetic.
Which one of that line up impresses you, hhaehre?

Please keep in mind the stage of their career, condition on fight night, motivation, etc.
The problem arises when the 'who else' question has to be answered. We then get served up Corletti and Amos 'effin' Lincoln who quite frankly does not improve on the list. Besides, most of the fighters available in the mid sixties can be torn down in the same manner done on that list. Machen old and spent, Ellis a blown up middleweight, Quarry the 'white hope' who got schooled by old man Machen, Leotis Martin built up fighting stiffs and even managed to get knocked out by one of them and so on...

I'm no great fan of Ali but let's be fair, he didn't do much wrong in the sixties and there just wasn't many great fighters around for him to fight at that time.
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Re: Did Ali really hit his "Peak"?

Post by BoxBuzz »

More Money? How could that be? Everybody wanted to see the Lincoln fight.......so the money MUST have been there.

Otherwise.....maybe it wasn't as popular an idea as you put forth.

The idea that Lincoln was feared by the champion is an imaginative stretch. If that's where the threat was, that's where the money would have been.
SenorPipino
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Re: Did Ali really hit his "Peak"?

Post by SenorPipino »

Boy, you read some of the posts from these guys and it's almost amazing that Ali was able to find his way to a gym, put on some trunks, lace up his shoes, and actually learn how to throw a jab while standing. What a stiff!
But Eduardo Corletti, there was an all-time great.
Somebody should tell Frazier, Foreman, Liston, Patterson, Quarry, Norton et al that Ali couldn't really fight. Think how big a bunch of bums they must be.
loaded_gloves
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Re: Did Ali really hit his "Peak"?

Post by loaded_gloves »

Christ there's some insane levels of half-truth and general gross misrepresentation going on in this thread. What is the point of it all? The breakdown of Ali's 60 reign is ridiculously skewed - if anyone can point to me a heavyweight championship reign in history that cannot be spun in the exact same infantile fashion I'd love to see it.

The Smokin' Joe fanatics attempting to diminish Muhammad Ali are in doing so depriving their man of his finest ever win. It seems it was a mere bum and fraud who went fifteen torrid rounds with Joe, and put him in the hospital how long.

Jeez. This thread is ridiculous.

I love Smokin' Joe by the way, before Yancey and Marvis and Cloverly jump on me. But come on. Be reasonable. Both these men are Kings, either accord them some respect or get down the gym and show us all how great you are.
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Re: Did Ali really hit his "Peak"?

Post by BoxBuzz »

Il Duce wrote:Cassius Clay wasn't going anywhere near Amos 'Big Train' Lincoln in 1966, especially in California.

The LSG Group still owned Cassius until October 1966 when their contract expired, and they weren't
taking any uneccessary risks.

They even turned down a $300,000 'Winner-Take-All-Bout' at the Oakland Coliseum.

Oakland Tribune.

'Big Train Squashes Cassius Into Clay"

"Cassius Says, He Only Wants To Fight In Europe, Where The Tough Heavyweights Are"
I thought you said he was going for the money....now you say the money was there. Before we go any futher...which is it?

Mildenburger did beat the Big Train.......so your point is a bit blunted by all the obfuscation you are engaging in.

Anyway he would have beaten the bejabbers out of Lincoln.....Quietly, you know this full well to be true.....and I'm guessing it's an inconvenient truth.
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Re: Did Ali really hit his "Peak"?

Post by yancey »

"You're Reading This Incorrectly" Duce

A common occurrence here, sorry to say.
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Re: Did Ali really hit his "Peak"?

Post by BoxBuzz »

Il Duce wrote:You're Reading This Incorrectly,

The 'money' and 'safety' was in Europe.

Never said that the 'Big Train' would run over Cassius, just that he would have been a better
opponent, and made for a better and more entertaining bout than "Brian London Falls Down"
or the expected result in "Henry Let It Bleed Cooper"

A) George Chuvalo 'loses' to 'unranked' Eduardo Corletti
B) Amos Lincoln 'defeats' #2 Ranked - Thad Spencer

Cassius then goes 'North-of-the Border',,,,,I thought he couldn't eat Bacon.

The only way this could have been a bigger joke, is if Cassius said he wanted fight
a Football Player {Jim Brown} or a Basketball Player {Wilt Chamberlin}.

Oh Wait........He Did..... ;;-)

Get me Antonio Inoki...................... :lol:

OK gotcha...you spun it in a direction I can follow now. But you were insinuating some stuff about Lincoln that could have been easily "misread" I guess.

And now that you've spun it this way, I'm not as sure what your point was. He wiped everyone out in the division, and went out to become an entertainer for an evening. I think he thought the Inoki event would be easy rakin' some japanese yen.......and he got the crap kicked out of his legs for his effort.
yancey
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Re: Did Ali really hit his "Peak"?

Post by yancey »

BoxBuzz wrote:
Il Duce wrote:You're Reading This Incorrectly,

The 'money' and 'safety' was in Europe.

Never said that the 'Big Train' would run over Cassius, just that he would have been a better
opponent, and made for a better and more entertaining bout than "Brian London Falls Down"
or the expected result in "Henry Let It Bleed Cooper"

A) George Chuvalo 'loses' to 'unranked' Eduardo Corletti
B) Amos Lincoln 'defeats' #2 Ranked - Thad Spencer

Cassius then goes 'North-of-the Border',,,,,I thought he couldn't eat Bacon.

The only way this could have been a bigger joke, is if Cassius said he wanted fight
a Football Player {Jim Brown} or a Basketball Player {Wilt Chamberlin}.

Oh Wait........He Did..... ;;-)

Get me Antonio Inoki...................... :lol:

OK gotcha...you spun it in a direction I can follow now. But you were insinuating some stuff about Lincoln that could have been easily "misread" I guess.

And now that you've spun it this way, I'm not as sure what your point was. He wiped everyone out in the division, and went out to become an entertainer for an evening. I think he thought the Inoki event would be easy rakin' some japanese yen.......and he got the crap kicked out of his legs for his effort.
Could it be that the Inoki event was actually Ali's peak?

Have we at last found it?

If so, the timing was exquisite as it was an electric moment in sporting history, uniting two disciplines in such a dignified manner.

Ranks right up there with Foreman vs the Toronto Five in my book. Another peak of sorts.

:TU:
BoxBuzz
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Re: Did Ali really hit his "Peak"?

Post by BoxBuzz »

Got that right.

Only at least Foreman had a shot at making his event something to crow about.

IF he would have whacked every guy out in the first ten seconds of the round, I think it would have been a respect moment.

The Inoki thing was purely about turning a buck/yen.

Sadly I wasn't even entertained by the affair.....I did however get a big kick out of what Wepner signed on for. To me that was at least entertainment. When Andre got tired of getting whacked he just picks his opponent up like a sack of potatoes and tosses him like a dwarf.

Honestly, that would have been a more appropriate matchup...Ali vs Andre...with the same ending.....at least it would have been good for a laugh.
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Re: Did Ali really hit his "Peak"?

Post by scallum »

What wouldve happened if it was Frazier who had been Forced to take off 3.5 years? How would he do vs A Ali that was continuously boxing ?
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Re: Did Ali really hit his "Peak"?

Post by BoxBuzz »

I'll tell you what I believe.....I believe you have dog in this race. lol.
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Re: Did Ali really hit his "Peak"?

Post by p4p1 »

Il Duce wrote:Mr. Scallum

You make it sound as if Muhammad Ali was pulled out of the Boxing Ring in April 1967,
and was then forced to sit in a closet for 3 1/2 years, and then the door is opened in
March 1971, and he is forced to get in the Ring with Joe Frazier.

Is that what you believe happened............
Well he wasn't given much choice about retiring in 1967, Who would you prefer him to fight instead of Frazier? A lesser fighter so you could call him a coward for not taking on Frazier when Frazier was at his best?
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Re: Did Ali really hit his "Peak"?

Post by loaded_gloves »

Now we've descended into deliberately misunderstanding Ali's position in 1967.

I don't blame him at all for not supporting that stupid war in any way and making a stand.

I wouldn't fight for a country where I was considered a 'ni**er' and couldn't go to the same places everybody else could.

Il Duce, you're a strange chap with creepy views. I'm starting to see why you adopted the nickname of a man like Mussolini.
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Re: Did Ali really hit his "Peak"?

Post by p4p1 »

loaded_gloves wrote:Now we've descended into deliberately misunderstanding Ali's position in 1967.

I don't blame him at all for not supporting that stupid war in any way and making a stand.

I wouldn't fight for a country where I was considered a 'ni**er' and couldn't go to the same places everybody else could.

Il Duce, you're a strange chap with creepy views. I'm starting to see why you adopted the nickname of a man like Mussolini.
:TU:
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Re: Did Ali really hit his "Peak"?

Post by p4p1 »

Il Duce wrote:p4p1,

Incorrect Sir,

Cassius Clay was given 'multiple-choices' in 1967, unfortunately he checked the wrong 'Box'.

Joe Frazier was at his physical best in 1969 and early-1970, up to the point where he
broke his right ankle and damaged the ligaments on April 3, 1970 in Las Vegas.

That injury put 'Smokin Joe' out-of-action for over 7-Months - where his weight ballooned
up to 230 lbs. because he could not 'hit-the-gym'.

He came back 7+ Months later, against Light-Heavyweight Champion Bob Foster on November 18, 1970.

It was Joe Frazier who could not train in the gym, while Muhammad Ali was staying busy with an
highly-intense training regiment during all of 1970.

Food-For-Thought

"My Shangri-La Beneath The Summer Moon"........'Kashmir' {Led Zeppelin}
So he announced his retirement officially in Feb and was later given a license to fight again in August but he trained intensely all through 1970? Why would he announce his retirement in 1970 if he thought he was going to fight again later that year? I don't know what you have against Ali though constantly referring to him as Clay might shed a little light on it. You keep shitting on Ali's 60s reign but it isn't as though Frazier had an ATG littered reign either.
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Re: Did Ali really hit his "Peak"?

Post by BoxBuzz »

Be that as it may, WE care about YOU.
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