Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

[Giancarlo]

Poor Giancarlo is 100% pure goofball.

That's coming from a 70 year old 'man' with an unhealthy interest in Smokin' Joe.

[Giancarlo]

Poor Giancarlo is 100% pure goofball.

That's coming from a 70 year old 'man' with an unhealthy interest in Smokin' Joe.

I bet he could kick your ass with an "I Am The Greatest" Record Album in his right hand.

I believe his right arm is extremely well developed compared to his left.

[ThatOne]

BoxRec should have an alternate history forum for Il Duce.

[ThatOne]

BoxRec should have an alternate history forum for Il Duce.

[/bYes, with me posting wonderful thoughts, and you following right behind.]

Where would this board be without the virtuous posters who work tirelessly and without fanfare to keep the record correct?

[ThatOne]

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."


-John Adams,

[ThatOne]

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."


-John Adams,

Mr. That One, did you come up with 'That One' yourself......

No. President Adams did.

[BoxBuzz]

Is that you credited him for the quote? Good show!

[BoxBuzz]

Do you point this out because you feel that young Cassius should have been more sensitive to those of us who share a Caucasian heritage? As I recall there was quite a social discussion going on back then, and he was part of group that was addressing some historic inequality. As I recall, people were not acting overly diplomatic on both sides of the discussion. Some were downright rude to others, and some were not overly impressed with the delicate and fragile ways of the peace makers of the time.

Trash talk was common, and we as a society were learning not to kill people for brandishing bold opinions in public. Or sitting on the wrong place on the bus.

However in a less civil time there was some consequence for trash talking...sometimes perfectly innocent humans were sacrificed in very inhumane ways for simply attempting to be treated as equals. This is a very powerful subject, and sometimes many of us went over the top with our passion. Were you a a part of this discussion? Please disregard this question it's much too personal.

But I suggest an entrée of forgiveness for such boldly expressed opinions during that time in our history. After all in an earlier time, the expressions were not simply verbal. And boldness often manifested in death making.

My simple point...consider forgiveness as it is often the best answer.

[p4p1]

Do you point this out because you feel that young Cassius should have been more sensitive to those of us who share a Caucasian heritage? As I recall there was quite a social discussion going on back then, and he was part of group that was addressing some historic inequality. As I recall, people were not acting overly diplomatic on both sides of the discussion. Some were downright rude to others, and some were not overly impressed with the delicate and fragile ways of the peace makers of the time.

Trash talk was common, and we as a society were learning not to kill people for brandishing bold opinions in public. Or sitting on the wrong place on the bus.

However in a less civil time there was some consequence for trash talking...sometimes perfectly innocent humans were sacrificed in very inhumane ways for simply attempting to be treated as equals. This is a very powerful subject, and sometimes many of us went over the top with our passion. Were you a a part of this discussion? Please disregard this question it's much too personal.

But I suggest an entrée of forgiveness for such boldly expressed opinions during that time in our history. After all in an earlier time, the expressions were not simply verbal. And boldness often manifested in death making.

My simple point...consider forgiveness as it is often the best answer.

[ThatOne]

Mr. Box Buzz,

Again well stated, but you assume wrong, as I'm not Caucasian.

I do not bring my Race, Creed or Color into the Box/Rec Site, as it should have no bearing
on my thoughts, as I let others just assume the 'worst' unfortunately.

If I say something 'on the edge' about Cassius Clay or Muhammad Ali, then they 'automatically'
assume that I'm a 'whatever they wish to brandish me'.

I just believe that Cassius Clay went from a 'good kid' to an 'immature smart-aleck', all for some
cheap laughs and to provide the 'non' Clay fans to hate him even more.

He succeded, at the expense of hurting others.

I still can see the look in Sandra Patterson's eyes as she left the Thunderbird Hotel in tears
a few days before the Championship Bout in Las Vegas, between her Husband and Cassius Clay.

Sandra Patterson, "I wonder if any other boxer ever talked to his opponent like this. It's one thing
to say I'm going to beat you up or knock you out. But to call my Husband derogatory names, and
belittle him in front of the Nation. One minute he acts nice, and then the next minute {when the
Camera's or Press come around} he acts like an animal in a Zoo."

We're just going to need a CITATION for that.

[ThatOne]

Your search - Sandra Patterson, "I wonder if any other boxer ever talked to his opponent like this. It's one ... - did not match any documents.

Suggestions:

Make sure all words are spelled correctly.
Try different keywords.
Try more general keywords.
Try fewer keywords.

[BoxBuzz]

Mr. Box Buzz,

Again well stated, but you assume wrong, as I'm not Caucasian.

I do not bring my Race, Creed or Color into the Box/Rec Site, as it should have no bearing
on my thoughts, as I let others just assume the 'worst' unfortunately.

If I say something 'on the edge' about Cassius Clay or Muhammad Ali, then they 'automatically'
assume that I'm a 'whatever they wish to brandish me'.

I just believe that Cassius Clay went from a 'good kid' to an 'immature smart-aleck', all for some
cheap laughs and to provide the 'non' Clay fans to hate him even more.

He succeded, at the expense of hurting others.

I still can see the look in Sandra Patterson's eyes as she left the Thunderbird Hotel in tears
a few days before the Championship Bout in Las Vegas, between her Husband and Cassius Clay.

Sandra Patterson, "I wonder if any other boxer ever talked to his opponent like this. It's one thing
to say I'm going to beat you up or knock you out. But to call my Husband derogatory names, and
belittle him in front of the Nation. One minute he acts nice, and then the next minute {when the
Camera's or Press come around} he acts like an animal in a Zoo."

You have initiated your response with an error. I made no assumptions. "Those of us"...simply refers to whomever qualify who is reading my words. Not specifically to you or I.

[ThatOne]

"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

If you read this post and feel it refers to you please don't blame the messenger .

[gilgamesh]

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."


-John Adams,

Mr. That One, did you come up with 'That One' yourself......

He quoted it from John Adams...he said that himself.

[gilgamesh]

Mr. Box Buzz,

Again well stated, but you assume wrong, as I'm not Caucasian.

I do not bring my Race, Creed or Color into the Box/Rec Site, as it should have no bearing
on my thoughts, as I let others just assume the 'worst' unfortunately.

If I say something 'on the edge' about Cassius Clay or Muhammad Ali, then they 'automatically'
assume that I'm a 'whatever they wish to brandish me'.

I just believe that Cassius Clay went from a 'good kid' to an 'immature smart-aleck', all for some
cheap laughs and to provide the 'non' Clay fans to hate him even more.

He succeded, at the expense of hurting others.

I still can see the look in Sandra Patterson's eyes as she left the Thunderbird Hotel in tears
a few days before the Championship Bout in Las Vegas, between her Husband and Cassius Clay.

Sandra Patterson, "I wonder if any other boxer ever talked to his opponent like this. It's one thing
to say I'm going to beat you up or knock you out. But to call my Husband derogatory names, and
belittle him in front of the Nation. One minute he acts nice, and then the next minute {when the
Camera's or Press come around} he acts like an animal in a Zoo."

How do you not understand that by now? YES Ali was an obnoxious, sh*t-talking, crazy son of a bitch when the cameras were rolling and he had a fight coming up. He was like that with ALL of his opponents, not just Floyd Patterson.

He also treated almost all of them with respect and didn't say anything bad about them as the years went on.

There are a lot of fighters who talk mad sh*t before a fight, during a fight all that. It IS a fight after all, and you're not exactly entering the ring with the mindset that the dude is your friend.

It's not like he was running down Floyd Patterson after it was all said and done.

[BoxBuzz]

In the movie Popeye, there was a fella who was always stating....."You owe me an apology".

Sounds like you are acting on behalf of all people that you feel are owed an Apology by Ali.

You are quite magnanimous to carry their request forward.

Do you feel he owes you an apology as well?

[BoxBuzz]

ok....if you say so.

however you must admit an apparition of YOU has now appeared in that very mirror.

Perhaps an episode of "supernatural" is in order here.

[gilgamesh]

In the movie Popeye, there was a fella who was always stating....."You owe me an apology".

Sounds like you are acting on behalf of all people that you feel are owed an Apology by Ali.

You are quite magnanimous to carry their request forward.

Do you feel he owes you an apology as well?

Response

Yes, I can hear the loud guffaws from the rest of the 'followers' at the Ali Sympathy Party.

It was he, who cast judgement on others, and took them to the gallows of cruel and verbal abuse.

Do you still feel you deserve punishment and belittlement for things you did or said 40+ years ago, or do you feel you've grown enough as a person overtime that time has washed them away?

[gilgamesh]

Mr G,

I have been a good person my whole life, and have never done anything 'intentionally'
to hurt someone, because I know the difference between right and wrong, good and evil.

Now, when you intentionally go out of your way to hurt someone to the core, and are
out to damage their heart, and make the them the target of your cruel jokes.

Then, you are a 'Class A Jerk', a selfish manipulative bastard, like some people.

I fear that a 'certain someone' will not be met with open arms when he leaves this
Earth, but will first be met by 'The Grim Reaper'.

Quite possibly, he has met 'The Grim Reaper' while he's on Earth now, who is torturing
him with pain that he inflicted on others, when he knew better.

Schadenfreude

[gilgamesh]

Mr G,

I have been a good person my whole life, and have never done anything 'intentionally'
to hurt someone, because I know the difference between right and wrong, good and evil.

Now, when you intentionally go out of your way to hurt someone to the core, and are
out to damage their heart, and make the them the target of your cruel jokes.

Then, you are a 'Class A Jerk', a selfish manipulative bastard, like some people.

I fear that a 'certain someone' will not be met with open arms when he leaves this
Earth, but will first be met by 'The Grim Reaper'.

Quite possibly, he has met 'The Grim Reaper' while he's on Earth now, who is torturing
him with pain that he inflicted on others, when he knew better.

Schadenfreude

More of a 'self-prescribed' Retributive Justice.

"Thou shalt not felt healed, until I have felt the true consequences of my sins."

Whatever you wish to call it. I have a simple request Il Duce, could you please, just dial it back with all the Ali threads all the time? I mean there's an entire wonderful history of Boxing to talk about without being obsessed with that ONE fighter and trying to sh*t all over everything he ever did or accomplished. You clearly have a pretty good knowledge of Boxing, and I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on other fighters on a regular basis.

Your thoughts on Ali are very, very well established, and noted.

[BoxBuzz]

ok...I love it.....full blown episode of "Supernatural" playing out right here on the ol BOTP.

Il Duce, go back and read your own words for meaning. Eventually it will dawn on you that you have become that which you curse. It may take a long long time, but my guess is the fog will clear at some point.

Your judgement on this celebrity is harsh. And your ease on yourself...nearly sociopathic.

Anyway, I leave this subject in peace. I wish you peace as well.

My parting thought will be direct and simple....Follow the rules, enjoy the forum.

[beaujack]

Mr. B Buzz,

It appeared that the statement was directed towards a 'specific individual'.

As for other derogatory statements made by Cassius Clay were things like,
'The Great Black White Hope', and a 'Light-Skinned Banana', and
a 'Yam-Eatin Rabbit'.

Maybe the cruelest statement was, when Cassius said that Floyd was thrown out
of Scarsdale, New York because he still ate 'Pork Chops'.

Il Duce, What you write is factual, but there are some posters who don't want to know the insults their hero spouted those days, hurting other people who NEVER hurt him...Those days I remember vividly, and Clay was cruel to his opponents taunting them in victory in front of thousands of people,
and acting like an insensitive bully...He started a cult ,and he could do no wrong... What he called one decent man Joe Frazier was shameful and despicable, but today his followers wish to forget about
all this, because of misguided hero worship...Kudos for you for your correct stance on this thread....

[yancey]

Mr. B Buzz,

It appeared that the statement was directed towards a 'specific individual'.

As for other derogatory statements made by Cassius Clay were things like,
'The Great Black White Hope', and a 'Light-Skinned Banana', and
a 'Yam-Eatin Rabbit'.

Maybe the cruelest statement was, when Cassius said that Floyd was thrown out
of Scarsdale, New York because he still ate 'Pork Chops'.

Il Duce, What you write is factual, but there are some posters who don't want to know the insults their hero spouted those days, hurting other people who NEVER hurt him...Those days I remember vividly, and Clay was cruel to his opponents taunting them in victory in front of thousands of people,
and acting like an insensitive bully...He started a cult ,and he could do no wrong... What he called one decent man Joe Frazier was shameful and despicable, but today his followers wish to forget about
all this, because of misguided hero worship...Kudos for you for your correct stance on this thread....

I also remember those days well and you have it exactly right.

[ThatOne]

In some quarters history is never a settled question. There are are still some folks who argue that Adolf Hitler was merely a frustrated artist, Il Duce was merely a disgruntled Marxist turned fascist, and poor Tojo just wanted the Americans to end their embargo of his nation.

However, history is written by the victors , no matter how much we might not want it to be so.

[ThatOne]

Floyd Patterson

Physically, I must admit, I was embarrassed by Ingemar Johansson, and completely
destroyed by Sonny Liston.

My will was still strong, but I was not so sure of my physical ability. Then came Cassius,
a wonderfully gifted boxer who could take the 'Sport' of boxing to another level.

He knew I couldn't beat him, and I knew it too. But, I still had to get into the ring with him.

At first, there was good sportsmanship and general respect. Then a little 'pre-fight chatter',
but nothing out-landish or mean-spirited. But then, something happened with Cassius, a side
that I had never seen before, a cruel side that was filled with 'hate', just absolute 'hate'.

Not spite, but 'hate'.

He should have let the GOAT take him under his wings so he could learn there is "nothing to fear but fear itself." Competitive sports devours those with fragile psyches and as the most brutal of sports the result in boxing are often the most manifest.

An older Muhammad Ali was asked what he would have said to the brutish Sonny Liston if he had the chance to talk to him as just two old men. His answer was "You scared me."