Would the heavyweight fighters of yore have trouble

[ThatOne]

Would the heavyweight fighters of yore have trouble with today's super heavyweights?


At some point does a massive advantage in size become determinative?


Please discuss...

[p4p1]

I would imagine so, guys like the K brothers are very skilled and very good athletes who also know how to use their size, length and strength advantages and would give most HWs serious trouble because of that.

[ThatOne]

I would imagine so, guys like the K brothers are very skilled and very good athletes who also know how to use their size, length and strength advantages and would give most HWs serious trouble because of that.

The Klits are around 6'5 250. That's huge and they are solid. I suspect they have less body fat then the smaller heavyweights of yore. A
lot of the hws of yore are around 6'00 190-200. That's a huge size differential.

I don't know.

[dempseyfire]

Would the heavyweight fighters of yore have trouble with today's super heavyweights?


At some point does a massive advantage in size become determinative?


Please discuss...

The Super HW era died in the mid 2000s. After the Klitschkos are gone who are these great super HWs to replace them . . Tyson Fury?

Back around the turn of the 2000s you had HBO and everyone declaring a "new HW era" when Michael Grant, Jameel McCline, Lance Whitaker, the Klitschkos, Derrick Jefferson etc. were coming up the ranks. What happened?

By 2005, Wlad Klitschko had been stopped by two non-super HWs in Sanders and Brewster, and the majority of HW titleholders since were natural cruisers (Chagaev, Ibragimov, Ruiz, Haye, Povetkin) or even smaller (in the case of Byrd). The K brothers have come back, but they are an exception . . beyond them the best big men are no bigger than HWs of yesteryear. The median natural size of a top HW in 1985 was actually BIGGER than it is now . . guys like Berbick, Thomas, Witherspoon, Snipes were natural 215-220 lbers. Guys today are fatter, but not bigger. At 220+ they look like your average plumber and not a professional boxer.

[ThatOne]

Would the heavyweight fighters of yore have trouble with today's super heavyweights?


At some point does a massive advantage in size become determinative?


Please discuss...

The Super HW era died in the mid 2000s. After the Klitschkos are gone who are these great super HWs to replace them . . Tyson Fury?

Back around the turn of the 2000s you had HBO and everyone declaring a "new HW era" when Michael Grant, Jameel McCline, Lance Whitaker, the Klitschkos, Derrick Jefferson etc. were coming up the ranks. What happened?

By 2005, Wlad Klitschko had been stopped by two non-super HWs in Sanders and Brewster, and the majority of HW titleholders since were natural cruisers (Chagaev, Ibragimov, Ruiz, Haye, Povetkin) or even smaller (in the case of Byrd). The K brothers have come back, but they are an exception . . beyond them the best big men are no bigger than HWs of yesteryear. The median natural size of a top HW in 1985 was actually BIGGER than it is now . . guys like Berbick, Thomas, Witherspoon, Snipes were natural 215-220 lbers. Guys today are fatter, but not bigger. At 220+ they look like your average plumber and not a professional boxer.

I appreciate your take and largely agree with it. But the Klits are freaks. Ditto for Lennox at his absolute heaviest.They are built like outside linebackers who carry very little fat.

[Vladimir5555]

*The Super HW era died in the mid 2000s. After the Klitschkos are gone who are these great super HWs to replace them . . Tyson Fury? *

Deontey Wilder

[dempseyfire]

Would the heavyweight fighters of yore have trouble with today's super heavyweights?


At some point does a massive advantage in size become determinative?


Please discuss...

The Super HW era died in the mid 2000s. After the Klitschkos are gone who are these great super HWs to replace them . . Tyson Fury?

Back around the turn of the 2000s you had HBO and everyone declaring a "new HW era" when Michael Grant, Jameel McCline, Lance Whitaker, the Klitschkos, Derrick Jefferson etc. were coming up the ranks. What happened?

By 2005, Wlad Klitschko had been stopped by two non-super HWs in Sanders and Brewster, and the majority of HW titleholders since were natural cruisers (Chagaev, Ibragimov, Ruiz, Haye, Povetkin) or even smaller (in the case of Byrd). The K brothers have come back, but they are an exception . . beyond them the best big men are no bigger than HWs of yesteryear. The median natural size of a top HW in 1985 was actually BIGGER than it is now . . guys like Berbick, Thomas, Witherspoon, Snipes were natural 215-220 lbers. Guys today are fatter, but not bigger. At 220+ they look like your average plumber and not a professional boxer.

I appreciate your take and largely agree with it. But the Klits are freaks. Ditto for Lennox at his absolute heaviest.They are built like outside linebackers who carry very little fat.

Lewis and the Klitschkos are actually naturally pretty lean. Klitschko walks around in the 230s and puts on weight through a diet program in training camp to get over 240. Vitali in his 20s was in the 230s. Lewis for most of his 20s was in the 220s and in his 30s was around 242 (the Holyfield fights) for a peak weight. Big men, but not any more freakish than Carnera who was a ripped 265 or Abe Simon who was an incredibly solid 255.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Jersey Joe Walcott would treat Vitali like a young boy.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I would imagine so, guys like the K brothers are very skilled and very good athletes who also know how to use their size, length and strength advantages and would give most HWs serious trouble because of that.

The Klits are around 6'5 250. That's huge and they are solid. I suspect they have less body fat then the smaller heavyweights of yore. A
lot of the hws of yore are around 6'00 190-200. That's a huge size differential.

I don't know.

They could have 1% body fat and Wlad still could never dream of fighting 15 hard rounds. The pace of the older fighters would play more of a role than size in a lot of instances. I'd confidently take the Leon Spinks that beat Ali to pound Wlad.

[evrenb]

I feel that the Klits are obviously very good. I do not think they are great. They absolutely use every conceivable advantage in height and reach to the max. To the detriment of fans. They get away with an awful lot of punch and grab tactics in Europe and I think a strong US ref would take away a lot of their advantages. In the fights where they were made to fight by a decent pro with a fair ref they have had less dominance...example being brewster, lewis, sanders, nigerian nightmare etc...saying that they are effective at what they do, providing they get away with it. Given the right ref they would definitely be successful against a lot of the past greats. If they were penalised for clutching and pushing I see Frazier working them over and doing a number on them...ali and holmes outbox them in close decisions...louis kayoes them both..absolutely.kick.the fcuk.out of them...tyson to ko them both...the others all have a chance...i would see the klinchkos getting disqualified in quite a few matches providing they werent promoting the match...

[Seamus]

3 of the top 4 heavyweights in the world, under 30, are 6-6 or taller.

[bollox]

I'd say the optimum size for HW's has already been surpassed. Being 6'6 and 250 has more disadvantages than advantages and it's a pity there are no top HW's around today at say 6'3 and 225. If there were I think my point would be validated

[Crease]

Would the heavyweight fighters of yore have trouble with today's super heavyweights?

I just want to say very quickly that back in the old days there were BIG guys... For example, Jess Willard (6.6.5) and Primo Carnera (6'5.5). Wouldn't they be comparable to todays guys?

At some point does a massive advantage in size become determinative?

Obviously it is an advantage, but the advantages minimises when fighting the Heavyweight legends of the past. Guys like Dempsey and Marciano know how to get under a jab. Whilst others of different styles like Charles and Ali know how to move around a jab.

[Crease]

I would imagine so, guys like the K brothers are very skilled and very good athletes who also know how to use their size, length and strength advantages and would give most HWs serious trouble because of that.

I agree to an extent.

But I believe that you are missing out on another important factor - guts. When you watch the Klitschkos fights, many of their opponents reduce themselves to walking punch bags - walking in to their big shots.

Ring Legends like Marciano can take 12 rounds of punishment and still have the unshaking conviction that they will knock their opponent out... I'm not sure the Klitschkos could do that...
And neither of them have actually showed they could go that deep in to the trenches thus far in their careers.

[dempseyfire]

3 of the top 4 heavyweights in the world, under 30, are 6-6 or taller.

Including Wilder who hasn't faced a live body and Helenius who was wobbled by a washed up 5'10 Sherman Williams and beaten like a drum by the 6'1 Chisora? Then there is Fury who was decked hard by a 37 year old Cunningham. Speaks more to how horrible the division is than any advantage the real big guys have.

[raylawpc]

The K Brothers have the advantage of fighting in the worst heavyweight era in history.

[Ambling Alp II]

I'd say the optimum size for HW's has already been surpassed. Being 6'6 and 250 has more disadvantages than advantages and it's a pity there are no top HW's around today at say 6'3 and 225. If there were I think my point would be validated

Agreed. At a certain point, size becomes a disadvantage. Historically, the lighter man has won about the same amount as the heavier man in head to head title fights.

Of course, there are certain heavyweights of today who are better than certain heavyweights of other eras. By and large, though the heavyweight division has been dead since the retirement of Lennox Lewis. Lewis was big, but he was more than that. He was smart, and had much more ability than anyone since him.

The Kltischkos have been the best since him. Waldimir has some skills and very good power. He also has stamina issues and a glass jaw.
What can we say about Vitaly? We think he has a good chin. He had little defense, is extremely slow, doesn't have a great jab, or hit that hard. He has no particular strength that would cause a really good fighter of any style a lot of trouble.

[Ezzard]

If size doesn’t matter where are all the Cruiserweights cutting through the division? Cruisers historically earn far less than Heavies so why bother even campaigning at Cruiser if there is no disadvantage to fighting at heavy…?

Or…if its true that size becomes a disadvantage then even more reason for Cruisers and Lighty-heavies (who are likely boiling down to hit the weight) to campaign at Heavy.

No doubt though that many old timers would be juiced up in today’s game to significantly a higher weight than they fought at back then.

[bollox]

The cruisers are relatively just as crap as the HWs, which may explain why they're not cutting through the HW's. Plus a lot have come up from other divisions themselves so they're not even natural cruisers

Holyfield has been the only cruiserweight of note since the division was brought into existence 30 odd years ago and look at what he achieved at HW. And not against the garbage that's in the HWs today

[Ezzard]

If the Cruisers are crap and the Heavies are crap and there’s no disadvantage…then all the Cruisers would fight at heavy for the money.


Most Light-Heavies are probably close to 190 in the ring…I’m reading that that’s big enough to beat Wlad and Vitali…

[Ambling Alp II]

A fighter at 190 that is really good could beat the Kltischkos. Dempsey could have beaten them both on the same night. There simply isn't anyone that good around now. It's not like the cruiserweight or lightheavyweight divisions have been very strong for the last several years.
Depending on a fighter's height and frame, roughly 200-225 is ideal for a heavyweight. (Of course there are always going to be rare exceptions of someone smaller or bigger being great).There is a reason why you don't see many 260 pound runningbacks in the NFL. At a certain point, extra size becomes a negative. Speed and endurance go down.

[dempseyfire]

If the Cruisers are crap and the Heavies are crap and there’s no disadvantage…then all the Cruisers would fight at heavy for the money.


Most Light-Heavies are probably close to 190 in the ring…I’m reading that that’s big enough to beat Wlad and Vitali…

They do all fight at heavyweight . . Povetkin, Ibragimov, Haye, Chagaev, Chambers, Adamek etc. could all easily make the cruiser limit, but they chub up (at least Haye not as bad) to the HW division for the $.

Cruiser as a whole is a very shallow division, filled with mostly light HWs who just couldn't regularly make that limit anymore. Some of the top guys are good, but they almost always eventually move up to HW anyway (Holyfield, Gomez, Haye, Toney, Adamek . . even Al Ice Cole). One of the top cruisers in Huck already showed he could beat a top 5 guy in Povetkin.

[Ezzard]

A Flyweight could beat Wlad if he was good enough…unlikely that Flyweight will ever exist.

So now not only are the heavies crap but so are the Cruisers and Light-Heavies… It’s all so convenient… One moment you mock a heavy for getting dropped by a Cruiser…the next minute there’s no actual advantage to being a Heavy… Which one is it?

According to other logic here… a similar level Cruiser can beat a similar level Heavy… Light-Heavies can beat them too…


So why hasn’t it happened?

[Counter-puncher]

A Flyweight could beat Wlad if he was good enough…unlikely that Flyweight will ever exist.

So now not only are the heavies crap but so are the Cruisers and Light-Heavies… It’s all so convenient… One moment you mock a heavy for getting dropped by a Cruiser…the next minute there’s no actual advantage to being a Heavy… Which one is it?

According to other logic here… a similar level Cruiser can beat a similar level Heavy… Light-Heavies can beat them too…


So why hasn’t it happened?

[Ezzard]

Thanks Counter...


Just to make it clear…

I believe that peak Jack Sharkey, Schmeling, Charles and Walcott were superior fighters to the likes of Foreman and Bowe (forum heroes)…and the Klitschkos.

But I have to say that unless Sharkey/Scmeling/Charles/Jersey Joe juice up (like Holyfield) I’d say it’s highly unlikely they can beat them.