Classic American West Coast Boxing

[CNorkusJr]

Superman & The Mole Men- As a young boy, Lois Lane wasnt the only one scared half to death when those two guys came out of the ground.
The painting is spot on. His face expression is great ! Very Nice Roger.

[dagosd2000]

Kingfish

"Ed,you can switch to the football game. The Cards are breaking it open,"I said to Ed the bartender.
Ed was waiting on customers as Champ's was beginning to fill up. Friday night was good for business. Lots of sports on TV and the Friday night dart tournament. The regulars were putting their butts in the seats.
"I'll leave the baseball game on at the other end of the bar,"he said."I'll switch to the football game for you."
"I don't like to see mismatches. If it wasn't bad for business,I'd just as soon watch an old movie."
"Or one of those old TV programs like they show late at night."
Ed went to the other end of the bar by the door to wait on a customer and then waklked back.
"Yeah,I like those old programs,"he said.
"They used to have on Amos and Andy,"I said. "They pulled it off because Blacks made a beef.They said it was demeaning"
"I don't see much difference when I watch Sanford and Son and that's still on reruns."
"I liked Amos and Andy when the Kingfish was always trying to scam Andy out of his dough."
"Those shows were pretty funny,"said Ed as he put a fresh coaster under my beer.
"That Kingfish always made me laugh.They say Tim Moore that played the him was once a fighter."
"Just about everyone in those days spent some time in the ring."
The regulars were gathering around the dart board waiting for the game to start.
"Speaking of the Kingfish reminds me of another Kingfish-Don King,"said Ed laughing.
"They had a lot in common."
"Except The Kingfish was always broke. In the end Andy would get his money back."
"Can't say that about Don King,"I said. "He made a killing off fighters."
"He didn't discrimminate either,"said Ed.
The dart game had started. Ed went around the bar with a tray of beers and big bowl of chips for the players.
"You know I once saw Buster Douglas on the Howard Stern show years later talking about his fight with Tyson,"I said as Ed walked back.
"What did he say?"
"Stern asked him how much he cleared."
"I heard he got a million dollars."
"Well Douglas goes on about how he had to pay everyone off after the fight. His manager, his trainer,his travel fare,expenses. He rambled on and then said he wound up with 600 bucks."
"You're kiddin'"?
"When Douglas said 600 bucks Stern about fell out of his chair."
"Did Douglas act resentfull?"
"No. He thought that was how things went."
"I wonder how much of his purse went back to King,"asked Ed.
"Who knows."
The dart game was picking up. The regulars were cheering and shouting.
"You know ,"I said to Ed wiping the bar."When I think of Don King,he doesn't make me laugh."



Don King

[raylawpc]

Cardinals won the pennant. Just saying . . .

[Chuck1052]

Cardinals won the pennant. Just saying . . .

Yes, it wasn't a good game for my Los Angeles Dodgers, to put it mildly. However, there were time swhen I didn't think the Dodgers had a chance to finish over .500, let alone win the West Division in the National League and get to the National League Championship Series in the playoffs. As a result, I can't wait until next season.

- Chuck Johnston

[BoxBuzz]

Tech question:


Is the "count" in Boxing = to ten seconds? OR...The Referee Counting to 10. Which could take anywhere between 8 to 13 seconds in most cases.

And.

Has a referee's count every been thrown out in favor of some mook holding a watch?

[CNorkusJr]

Tech question:


Is the "count" in Boxing = to ten seconds? OR...The Referee Counting to 10. Which could take anywhere between 8 to 13 seconds in most cases.

And.

Has a referee's count every been thrown out in favor of some mook holding a watch?

In New York, you will hear the ring announcer say as part of his introductions "....and counting for the knockdowns (name)...." That is a guy who sits ringside with a small wood mallet and a watch (could be hs own or stop watch (not sure) who begins the count when a boxer hits the canvas. Actually I think it could be another ref from the card who does that-...not the time keeper as that guy has the ring the bell to stop the round or fight and has his own watch or clock to observe.
.
Supposedly the "counter for the knockdowns" in in-sync with the watch sweep hand as he pounds the canvas with the mallet so the ref can pick up the count in case he has to tell the other fighter to get to a neutral corner. Thats why you see the ref might pick up the count from the mallet guy at 5 or 6 or seven or whatever.

Whats subject to opinion is when the counter starts his second sweep-hand watch and mallet count after the guy hits the deck. Usually its so close that it becomes a matter of human interaction.

Has it always been that way-not sure.

Also, you will hear the mallet hit the canvas hard at the "10 seconds to go till end of round" alert.

[BoxBuzz]

thanks,

yep I was peripherally aware of these guidelines. It would seem to me that the greater margin for error is the refs decision/opinion of when to pick up the actual 10 count once the ref feels the opposing fighter has arrived to a neutral corner. Like you say, not much room for error with the mallet synched to the watch.

I've actually heard relatively little whining on this subject over the years. I guess I'm surprised that it's not the center of more controversy in this day of any and everything being an excuse.

[Randyman]

Tech question:


Is the "count" in Boxing = to ten seconds? OR...The Referee Counting to 10. Which could take anywhere between 8 to 13 seconds in most cases.

And.

Has a referee's count every been thrown out in favor of some mook holding a watch?

I would think whether it's an actual 10 seconds or the Refs count, all the fighter has to go by is the refs count. So, if a fighters gets up after the actual 10 seconds but beats the refs count, then he's good to go. That would be the bottom line.

[El Gallo]

Thank you to my true friends . . .

Thank you to former World Heavyweight Champion, Lamon Brewster, former World lightweight Champ, Tiger Smalls, and former California Bantamweight Champ, Jose "Portillo" Lopez, for thanking me at today's California Boxing Hall of Fame event.

You earned you inductions, and I'm grateful to be acknowledged!

Sadly, the great Joey Giambra called me three days before the event, saying his health prevented his attending.
We had planned a reunion after a few years.
Best to Joey & his great family.

Rick Farris
President
West Coast Boxing Hall of Fame

[Chuck1052]

A fighter who is knocked down goes by the referee's count. It is almost impossible for a "ten-count" by a referee to be exactly ten seconds. How could the fighter know if the referee's count is exactly in sync with the timekeeper's? Under the circumstances, a fighter should never be penalized if he beats the referee's count even when he was down for ten or more seconds.

Don King and Jose Suliaman tried to take the world heavyweight title away from Buster Douglas, claiming that he was down for at least ten seconds even though he got up from a knockdown before the referee counted to ten. But King and Suliaman apparently backed down when they realized so many people weren't going to stand for Douglas being deprived of his title under such circumstances.

- Chuck Johnston

[El Gallo]

A fighter who is knocked down goes by the referee's count. It is almost impossible for a "ten-count" by a referee to be exactly ten seconds. How could the fighter know if the referee's count is exactly in sync with the timekeeper's? Under the circumstances, a fighter should never be penalized if he beats the referee's count even when he was down for ten or more seconds.

Don King and Jose Suliaman tried to take the world heavyweight title away from Buster Douglas, claiming that he was down for at least ten seconds even though he got up from a knockdown before the referee counted to ten. But King and Suliaman apparently backed down when they realized so many people weren't going to stand for Douglas being deprived of his title under such circumstances.

- Chuck Johnston

Very true about King & Sulaiman backing down from pushing the issue regarding the Ten Count of Tyson-Douglas
However, despite his embarrassing performance, Tyson did KO Douglas (if a KO was judged by an exact 10 seconds of a body hitting the floor). I think an "instant replay" of the count should be the final judge, if the count should be in question. Referee's don't always pick up the timekeepers count. Tyson did not deserve the win based on his performance, but Douglas was on the canvas beyond ten seconds, as many of us know who have timed it carefully.

[BoxBuzz]

Which sort of takes me back to the written rule. Is it worded in seconds or "count of ten".

Which I think is reasonable to assume are NOT one and the same.

I've always assumed "count of ten" which is why I was not concerned with King's attempt at drama.

I've always felt for good or bad, the "ref" is part of the game.

Get yourself a good one every time. lol

[scartissue]

Which sort of takes me back to the written rule. Is it worded in seconds or "count of ten".

Which I think is reasonable to assume are NOT one and the same.

I've always assumed "count of ten" which is why I was not concerned with King's attempt at drama.

I've always felt for good or bad, the "ref" is part of the game.

Get yourself a good one every time. lol

I'll give you two diverse examples of an odd count. When Rafael Ruelas was on the way up he fought a Mexican clubfighter named Mauro Gutierrez. Well Gutierrez nails Ruelas and drops him in the 2nd. He can get up but takes a knee to wait out the count. However, instead of watching the ref's count he is watching his corner and Joe Goosen is one second behind the ref's count. When the ref said '10', Joe motions for Rafael to get up, which he does, one second later than '10'. Man, they griped about this, but you gotta watch the ref, no one else. A second example is what you mentiooned, Steve, about a good ref. Lou Savarese fought Lance Whitaker and was dropped during the bout. Steve Smoger, who some think is a good ref, but I always use this as an example of partiality. While counting Savarese, he gets to '8' and before he says '9', he whispers, but clearly audible to the viewer, something like 'C'mon' or 'Get up'. That's not the ref's call and Lou went on to win that fight when he responded to Smoger. A result changer for sure.

[BoxBuzz]

The Smoger moment is pretty awful. Either way, whether the ref is whispering.."don't bother" or "get up" it's all wrong. They should be all about the numerals and nothing else at that moment.

Third man in the ring? Less said, less seen, the better. Other than purely tending to the rules of the game.

[El Gallo]

The Smoger moment is pretty awful. Either way, whether the ref is whispering.."don't bother" or "get up" it's all wrong. They should be all about the numerals and nothing else at that moment.

Third man in the ring? Less said, less seen, the better. Other than purely tending to the rules of the game.

[El Gallo]

Which sort of takes me back to the written rule. Is it worded in seconds or "count of ten".

Which I think is reasonable to assume are NOT one and the same.

I've always assumed "count of ten" which is why I was not concerned with King's attempt at drama.

I've always felt for good or bad, the "ref" is part of the game.

Get yourself a good one every time. lol

I'll give you two diverse examples of an odd count. When Rafael Ruelas was on the way up he fought a Mexican clubfighter named Mauro Gutierrez. Well Gutierrez nails Ruelas and drops him in the 2nd. He can get up but takes a knee to wait out the count. However, instead of watching the ref's count he is watching his corner and Joe Goosen is one second behind the ref's count. When the ref said '10', Joe motions for Rafael to get up, which he does, one second later than '10'. Man, they griped about this, but you gotta watch the ref, no one else. A second example is what you mentiooned, Steve, about a good ref. Lou Savarese fought Lance Whitaker and was dropped during the bout. Steve Smoger, who some think is a good ref, but I always use this as an example of partiality. While counting Savarese, he gets to '8' and before he says '9', he whispers, but clearly audible to the viewer, something like 'C'mon' or 'Get up'. That's not the ref's call and Lou went on to win that fight when he responded to Smoger. A result changer for sure.

Steve Smoger is one of the worst referees in boxing, one who will get a boxer killed, and as crooked as a dog's hind leg. He is one of the sport's biggest problems, he follows the money and continues to get jobs. In Cali we have the same thing going on with the CSAC officials, most noteably Marty Denkin, Gwen Adair and Carol Caiz.

[Chuck1052]

While watching Mike Tyson's bout with Buster Douglas, I noticed that Tyson was getting hit with punches that he usually blocked or avoided in his bouts during his peak years. As a result, I believe that Tyson wasn't fully prepared to get into the ring with Douglas, something which didn't happen when he was managed by Jim Jacobs and trained by Kevin Rooney. Tyson faced another hurdle when Douglas had the best day of his life as a professional boxer.

The referee of the bout may have not had the best day of his life, but it also should be point out that Douglas punched the canvas with disgust right after being knocked down and then followed the referee's count before getting up. In other words, I think it is very possible that Douglas would have got up before being counted out even if he was down on the canvas less than ten seconds.

- Chuck Johnston

[dagosd2000]

Canyon Of Steel

"Here's the exit I'm looking for,"I said to my wife while driving on the freeway."Cold Water Canyon."
We were on our way to the California Boxing Hall Of Fame Banquet in Studio City,just outside LA. proper. We had tickets to sit at one of Tiger Smalls' tables.He was being inducted as a former fighter.

Tiger's group was seated near the back of the room in front of the general seating. As usual when someone is inducted that I am a guest of,I paint a portait of the inductee. This time Tiger Smalls. I gave Tiger the painting with his son at his side.
"You did this?"he asked.
"Yes.I hope you like it,"I answered.
"You made me look old,"said Tiger still staring at the painting in his hands.
"Well,you are old,"I shot back.

This was around my fourth or fifth time attending this event. The usual cast of characters are always there. Frankie Duarte,Mando Muniz,Danny Lopez,Carlos Palomino,and Bobby Chacon. Those are the fighters I always recognize. I know there are others,but I can't match the faces with the names.Little Red and Mike Weaver were up at the dais with Don Fraser.So was Gewn Adair. Mando Muniz,Carlos Palomino,and Frankie Duarte were at the back in the general seating.Hard to tell where Bobby Chacon was seated. He moved around a lot with Rosie on his arm.I missed Rodolfo Gonzalez. Don Fraser oversees everything. His daughter's band provided the music. The foods was more or less the same. Some sort of chicken and something else. Yesterday it was just chicken.

The followers of Southland boxing are usually there along with the fighters. The last few years the event has been at the Sportsmens Lodge. The Lodge is a little worn around the edges as are a lot of the people in attendance,but that embellishes the atmosphere. For me it's always been old Los Angeles that intrigues. Still a lot of footprints. Even the freeways are the oldest around.

Tiger Smalls was dressed to the nines in an impeccable suit. His family was at his table. He sold tickets to fill up another two tables with his fans. Tiger accepted his award with his son,Prince, by his side.Tiger said that he would keep his acceptance speech short unlike the others who said they would make their speeches short and didn't.That got a lot of laughs and applause.

After Tiger's award ,my wife and I left.We were to eat dinner with our daughter in Orange County. As I was driving ,I thought about the banquet and similar events in the LA. area. Until I became aware of them,I thought that the expugs in LA. had dispersed like what happened in San Diego. But San Diego was small in comparision to the legacy in Los Angeles.

As I drove past sections of town named Thai Town and Little Tokyo,I thought of the old venues of boxing that are no longer around or are used for other purposes in the city. It's too bad that The Olympic Audtorium couldn't still be in use,or at least make it a city landmark. But that's not practical.

It's good that those former fighters can get together and have some fun. They are in an exclusive club. Once were warriors who can talk about their battles as it were yesterday.



Tiger and Prince with my "Rembrandt"



Tiger with his award with Prince by his side.

Familiar Faces



Chuck Johnston



Randy De La O



Jeri De La O and my wife,Maria

[El Gallo]

While watching Mike Tyson's bout with Buster Douglas, I noticed that Tyson was getting hit with punches that he usually blocked or avoided in his bouts during his peak years. As a result, I believe that Tyson wasn't fully prepared to get into the ring with Douglas, something which didn't happen when he was managed by Jim Jacobs and trained by Kevin Rooney. Tyson faced another hurdle when Douglas had the best day of his life as a professional boxer.

The referee of the bout may have not had the best day of his life, but it also should be point out that Douglas punched the canvas with disgust right after being knocked down and then followed the referee's count before getting up. In other words, I think it is very possible that Douglas would have got up before being counted out even if he was down on the canvas less than ten seconds.

- Chuck Johnston

He wasn't prepared. Don King made sure Tyson was doing PR when he should have been in the gym training. He had no cook, or the food he was supposed to eat, nothing was right. He was a combo puncher throwing one punch at a time, no headmovement or body punching. This was not Mike Tyson.

[CNorkusJr]

Tech question:


Is the "count" in Boxing = to ten seconds? OR...The Referee Counting to 10. Which could take anywhere between 8 to 13 seconds in most cases.

And.

Has a referee's count every been thrown out in favor of some mook holding a watch?

I would think whether it's an actual 10 seconds or the Refs count, all the fighter has to go by is the refs count. So, if a fighters gets up after the actual 10 seconds but beats the refs count, then he's good to go. That would be the bottom line.

Your absolutely right Randy. I should have stated that once the referee picks up the count from the ringside aide, it is his count alone that matters until he says "ten". A fighter knows that the refs count is the only count and if he wishes to rise on his own at nine, that his perogative. If he is still down at ten, its over. Many times, a ref wont finish his count if he feels the fighter is a beaten man and he has taken enough and does not want him to rise.. My father's fight with Charlie Powell in 1954 is an example of that. It goes down as a TKO ref stoppage, instead of the ref letting it go to ten for the KO.
But bottom line-its the refs count and decisions that matter in the fights ending. Unless it goes to the cards, which is always interesting in itself.

[CNorkusJr]

Roger, Thank You on your report and pictures from this years CA Boxing HOF dinner. I am very happy that you and Randy and your respective families had a great time.
I know I had a wonderful time at last years event. Thrilling for me. I am sorry my good friend Harold Lederman could not be present because of his HBO commitment on Saturday nite. He told me that he woud have loved to have been there as he has many friends in attendance he would like to see like his long time friends Steve Carbo and Col. Fritz Werner with whom he worked with for many years ringside.

Harold always has a smile on his face, a great memory of historic bouts he worked as a judge, and can tell a story like no other. Harold also has a flair for words.
Given 5 minutes, he will take 30 minutes. Given 10 minutes he will talk an hour. I would have loved to seen Don Fraser's face on that Induction.
Congratulations to All Inductees that day from Rosie and I.

-Charlie Norkus Jr.

[El Gallo]

1970's Middleweight contener Renato Garcia . . .

I remember when Renato Garcia arrived in Los Angeles from Chile, in the early 1970's. He was managed by the legendary Wille Ketchum, and quickly became a popular attraction in Los Angeles.

I'll never forget my manager watching Garcia closely in the gym. Mel Epstein not only handled me, but another young middleweight contender in Mike Nixon. After my gym work one day, Epstein and I walked from the Main Street Gym over to Clifton's Cafeteria on Broadway. As we waited for our food, Mel talked about Renato Garcia.

"I like that kid!" Mel remarked. "He's smart, you can see it in his eyes, how he does things." Mel continued, "I think he's got some power, too? Too bad he's with that scumbag Willie Ketchum. You know that bastid robbed the widow of former featherweight champion Davey Moore, after he died following the Sugar Ramos title defense in 1963!" Mel shook his head, folded his hands on the table and continued, "But I like that Renato Garcia, he's got a fighter's haircut . . . unlike somebody I know."

Renato went on to fight some of the greatest middleweights of his era. I remember him well

-Rick Farris

[CNorkusJr]

1970's Middleweight contener Renato Garcia . . .

I remember when Renato Garcia arrived in Los Angeles from Chile, in the early 1970's. He was managed by the legendary Wille Ketchum, and quickly became a popular attraction in Los Angeles.

I'll never forget my manager watching Garcia closely in the gym. Mel Epstein not only handled me, but another young middleweight contender in Mike Nixon. After my gym work one day, Epstein and I walked from the Main Street Gym over to Clifton's Cafeteria on Broadway. As we waited for our food, Mel talked about Renato Garcia.

"I like that kid!" Mel remarked. "He's smart, you can see it in his eyes, how he does things." Mel continued, "I think he's got some power, too? Too bad he's with that scumbag Willie Ketchum. You know that bastid robbed the widow of former featherweight champion Davey Moore, after he died following the Sugar Ramos title defense in 1963!" Mel shook his head, folded his hands on the table and continued, "But I like that Renato Garcia, he's got a fighter's haircut . . . unlike somebody I know."

Renato went on to fight some of the greatest middleweights of his era. I remember him well

-Rick Farris

LOL

[dagosd2000]

The Name Dropper

"Tommy's dad played with the Pirates,"said the kid.
"No he didn't," I said. "He was in the farm organization with those guys,but he never played in the bigs with them."
I was in the gym working out on the machines when I struck up a conversation with one of the kids I used to coach football to at the high school.He was working with Tommy,who I also coached at the school. The two kids were helping out at the school with the football team.
"When the Pirates would come to town,"I went on," they'd call Tommy's dad up to come to the stadium to throw batting practice."
The kid just looked at me.
"He calls himself 'ex Pirate" on the internet,but he was never with Stargell and those guys,"I said.
"So he wasn't in the World Series?"
"They all new him in Alabama with the AA club."
The kid looked down at the floor.
"He got a little too big for his britches. Him and his old man thought he should be with the parent club. The front office didn't think he was ready so they let him go. That was before free agency."
The kid didn't say nothing.
"Oh he'll act like he was right there with them all the way through the World Series."
The kid picked up one of the dumbells and began doing some curls. The weight wasn't very heavy. I felt a little sorry for him.
"I've always been a Pirate fan,"he murmured.
"Oh don't feel so bad. Tommy's dad is selling a Rennie Stennett jersey on EBay.I don't think there are any bids on it."

[dagosd2000]

Chuck Wepner