Cassius Clay ~ "Girlie Pink Cadillac"

[SenorPipino]

I take it, old Arch, "an incorruptable gentleman," didn't agree with the Supreme Court verdict 4 years later.

BTW, what is this "beautiful gesture" alluded to?

[ThatOne]

I take it, old Arch, "an incorruptable gentleman," didn't agree with the Supreme Court verdict 4 years later.

BTW, what is this "beautiful gesture" alluded to?

Old Arch is consigned to the ash heap oh history; a fitting place for such human detritus.

[ThatOne]

I believe,

It was in reference to, a man standing up for his 'right' to make a 'decision' in
what he felt was the best interest of the WBA.

The WBA President,

I may be seen as being wrong in the future, but as of right now, I have to make a decision
based upon the facts. This is not a 'speeding ticket', or a 'minor assault' charge, this
is a very serious matter.

Just like Cassius Clay {Muhammad Ali} has his right to make his decision, I have my
right as well. If he doesn't like my decision, he can appeal it.

In my best Matt Damon voice, "you like apples?"

As I said him and his decision and anybody who agreed with it have been consigned to the ash bin of history along with such other abortions as the three fifths rule, the Kansas-Nebraska Act, the Dred Scott decision, and The Fugitive Slave Act.


"How do you like them apples?"

[ThatOne]

The hearing officer who was closest to the case interviewed the GOAT, the GOAT's parents, and thirty or so of the GOAT's associates and believed that he met the criteria for conscientious objector status and should be granted conscientious objector status,ergo:

- He must show that he is conscientiously opposed to war in any form.
- He must show that this opposition is based upon religious training and belief.
-He must show that this objection is sincere.

The Department Of Justice, for reasons never clearly articulated or understood, overruled the recommendation of the hearing officer.

In the end the GOAT whupped the forces of reaction in the United States government the way he whupped so many of his opponents.

[SenorPipino]

My problem with all this is that boxing authorities acted so sanctimonious about depriving Ali of his title. Guys like old Arch called it a "very serious matter," offering that it's not like a "minor assault."
Yet at the same time, how many felons were licensed by these same authorities??? Dozens? Hundreds?
Remember, the line "boxing isn't made up of choirboys"?
It was all political when it came to stripping Ali of the title. He was reviled by the white powers-that-be and his refusal to accept induction was a convenient excuse to place him on the sidelines.
Beautiful gesture my ass.

[ThatOne]

My problem with all this is that boxing authorities acted so sanctimonious about depriving Ali of his title. Guys like old Arch called it a "very serious matter," offering that it's not like a "minor assault."
Yet at the same time, how many felons were licensed by these same authorities??? Dozens? Hundreds?
Remember, the line "boxing isn't made up of choirboys"?
It was all political when it came to stripping Ali of the title. He was reviled by the white powers-that-be and his refusal to accept induction was a convenient excuse to place him on the sidelines.
Beautiful gesture my ass.

The government's case against him was farcical. Here are the three criteria:

- He must show that he is conscientiously opposed to war in any form.
- He must show that this opposition is based upon religious training and belief.
-He must show that this objection is sincere.

The government conceded the second and third criteria. However they argued that since Ali was opposed to all war except those declared by Allah (God) he wasn't opposed to war in any form . That's why the Court ruled in favor of Jehovah's Witnesses seeking conscientious objector status in Sicurella v. United States even they would also fight in a war if it was sanctioned by Jehovah (God).

The government targeted Clay/Ali because he was an outspoken black man. If they would have imprisoned him they would have made him a martyr and they knew that.

[ThatOne]

Killing and beating somebody up is one thing.

But going 'against' your country 'The United States of America' was not too smart.

Remember, Cassius was going around saying "I will beat the Draft".

And, 'I'm a high-ranking Official in the Negro Government'

I don't remember the GOAT killing anybody in the ring. I do remember him leaving some of his opponents so forlorn they wished they were dead.

:P

[raylawpc]

My problem with all this is that boxing authorities acted so sanctimonious about depriving Ali of his title. Guys like old Arch called it a "very serious matter," offering that it's not like a "minor assault."
Yet at the same time, how many felons were licensed by these same authorities??? Dozens? Hundreds?
Remember, the line "boxing isn't made up of choirboys"?
It was all political when it came to stripping Ali of the title. He was reviled by the white powers-that-be and his refusal to accept induction was a convenient excuse to place him on the sidelines.
Beautiful gesture my ass.

The government's case against him was farcical. Here are the three criteria:

- He must show that he is conscientiously opposed to war in any form.
- He must show that this opposition is based upon religious training and belief.
-He must show that this objection is sincere.

The government conceded the second and third criteria. However they argued that since Ali was opposed to all war except those declared by Allah (God) he wasn't opposed to war in any form . That's why the Court ruled in favor of Jehovah's Witnesses seeking conscientious objector status in Sicurella v. United States even they would also fight in a war if it was sanctioned by Jehovah (God).

The government targeted Clay/Ali because he was an outspoken black man. If they would have imprisoned him they would have made him a martyr and they knew that.

No court ever held that Ali was a conscientious objector or qualified for the ministerial exemption. The only courts that ever considered the merits of the issue convicted him and affirmed the conviction respectively. His conviction was reversed by the Supreme Court on the procedural grounds.

Here is a link to the Court of Appeals decision: http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case? ... i=scholarr

Here is a link to the Supreme Court decision: http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case? ... i=scholarr

The interesting thing about this case is that the Supreme Court reversed the conviction sua sponte - that is, they reserved the case on grounds not asserted by Ali's attorneys. This was fairly unusual, and gives some credence to Woodward and Bernstein's assertion that the decision was a compromise.

[SenorPipino]

The 60s government and the old-boys network then in boxing wished to treat Ali like they did another outspoken and unapologetic black man from an even earlier era---Jack Johnson.

Prehistoric- thinking guys like old Arch would have loved to incarcerate Ali for his serious "crime" and have one of boxing's biggest stains disappear.
Meanwhile, convicted rapists, robbers, druggies and murderers would be welcome to ply their trade in the ring, while Ali would instead languish behind bars for refusing to (GASP!) take the step.

[ThatOne]

My problem with all this is that boxing authorities acted so sanctimonious about depriving Ali of his title. Guys like old Arch called it a "very serious matter," offering that it's not like a "minor assault."
Yet at the same time, how many felons were licensed by these same authorities??? Dozens? Hundreds?
Remember, the line "boxing isn't made up of choirboys"?
It was all political when it came to stripping Ali of the title. He was reviled by the white powers-that-be and his refusal to accept induction was a convenient excuse to place him on the sidelines.
Beautiful gesture my ass.

The government's case against him was farcical. Here are the three criteria:

- He must show that he is conscientiously opposed to war in any form.
- He must show that this opposition is based upon religious training and belief.
-He must show that this objection is sincere.

The government conceded the second and third criteria. However they argued that since Ali was opposed to all war except those declared by Allah (God) he wasn't opposed to war in any form . That's why the Court ruled in favor of Jehovah's Witnesses seeking conscientious objector status in Sicurella v. United States even they would also fight in a war if it was sanctioned by Jehovah (God).

The government targeted Clay/Ali because he was an outspoken black man. If they would have imprisoned him they would have made him a martyr and they knew that.

No court ever held that Ali was a conscientious objector or qualified for the ministerial exemption. The only courts that ever considered the merits of the issue convicted him and affirmed the conviction respectively. His conviction was reversed by the Supreme Court on the procedural grounds.

Here is a link to the Court of Appeals decision: http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case? ... i=scholarr

Here is a link to the Supreme Court decision: http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case? ... i=scholarr

The interesting thing about this case is that the Supreme Court reversed the conviction sua sponte - that is, they reserved the case on grounds not asserted by Ali's attorneys. This was fairly unusual, and gives some credence to Woodward and Bernstein's assertion that the decision was a compromise.

It was a political decision. The Supreme Court wanted a decision that applied to the case in front of them and didn't create a precedent. I'm also sure the last thing they wanted to do was " Mandelaize " Muhammad Ali and make him a international martyr.

Of note is the official closest to the case; the hearing officer initially ruled in his favor,and even Solicitor General Griswold conceded his objection to the war was sincere and was based on his religious belief.

History has spoken and he was on the right side of it.

[raylawpc]

d

[raylawpc]

It was a political decision. The Supreme Court wanted a decision that applied to the case in front of them and didn't create a precedent. I'm also sure the last thing they wanted to do was " Mandelaize " Muhammad Ali and make him a international martyr.

Of note is the official closest to the case; the hearing officer initially ruled in his favor,and even Solicitor General Griswold conceded his objection to the war was sincere and was based on his religious belief.

History has spoken and he was on the right side of it.

I'd say the jury that convicted him was pretty close to the case, as was the federal judge who tried it.

The only thing history says about this case is that he avoided jail due to a procedural error.

[ThatOne]

It was a political decision. The Supreme Court wanted a decision that applied to the case in front of them and didn't create a precedent. I'm also sure the last thing they wanted to do was " Mandelaize " Muhammad Ali and make him a international martyr.

Of note is the official closest to the case; the hearing officer initially ruled in his favor,and even Solicitor General Griswold conceded his objection to the war was sincere and was based on his religious belief.

History has spoken and he was on the right side of it.

I'd say the jury that convicted him was pretty close to the case, as was the federal judge who tried it.

The only thing history says about this case is that he avoided jail due to a procedural error.

Let's be honest with ourselves. Maybe an Ali imprisonment would have played well down south but it wouldn't have played well in the rest of the world. He would have joined Nelson Mandela who was wasting away in Robben Island as the most famous wrongfully and unjustly incarcerated black men in the world. I wouldn't be surprised if he would have received the Nobel Peace prize in prison.

I respectfully dissent. History belongs to the victors and is about large things and not procedural niceties, ergo:

[Giancarlo]

d

Not surprised you deleted that post, Tom.

When I read it I was very surprised as I recall another discussion about Vietnam where you said during the period you were eligible for the draft your father and grandfather, both veterans, had said if you'd got your papers one of them would be packing your suitcase and the other would have been driving you to Canada.

I'm not imagining that am I Tom.

[ThatOne]

d

Not surprised you deleted that post, Tom.

When I read it I was very surprised as I recall another discussion about Vietnam where you said during the period you were eligible for the draft your father and grandfather, both veterans, had said if you'd got your papers one of them would be packing your suitcase and the other would have been driving you to Canada.

I'm not imagining that am I Tom.

What did i miss?

I know uber hawk, Ted Nugent, shitted himself so he would be classified 4-F and be ineligible for Nam... Another famous uber hawk, Dick Cheney got six deferments.

[raylawpc]

d

Not surprised you deleted that post, Tom.

When I read it I was very surprised as I recall another discussion about Vietnam where you said during the period you were eligible for the draft your father and grandfather, both veterans, had said if you'd got your papers one of them would be packing your suitcase and the other would have been driving you to Canada.

I'm not imagining that am I Tom.

They didn't say that in the 1960s. They said that in the 1980s. And my Granddad said he would have bought my plane ticket to Canada; he didn't like driving long distances. Dad mellowed. Granddad never supported the war in Vietnam.

And that's not why I deleted it.

P.S.: Also, my Granddad wasn't a veteran. He was too young for World War I, and too old for World War II.

[raylawpc]

What did i miss?

Not much. That's why I deleted it.

[raylawpc]

Cassius Clay was 'not' stripped of his Title by the WBA because he refused to go to Vietnam.

Vietnam and the Viet Cong/North Vietnamese Army 'unfeeling murderers' had nothing to do with it.

It was based upon 'principal and order' - and Cassius Clay's lack of 'duty and honor'.

Cassius actually tried to make a deal, to send his brother Rudy Clay in his place for Military Duty.

What A Brother, What A Guy............

Do you have any proof that he wanted to send his brother?

[ThatOne]

Cassius Clay was 'not' stripped of his Title by the WBA because he refused to go to Vietnam.

Vietnam and the Viet Cong/North Vietnamese Army 'unfeeling murderers' had nothing to do with it.

It was based upon 'principal and order' - and Cassius Clay's lack of 'duty and honor'.

Cassius actually tried to make a deal, to send his brother Rudy Clay in his place for Military Duty.

What A Brother, What A Guy............

Do you have any proof that he wanted to send his brother?

What raylawpc said?

[ThatOne]

d

Not surprised you deleted that post, Tom.

When I read it I was very surprised as I recall another discussion about Vietnam where you said during the period you were eligible for the draft your father and grandfather, both veterans, had said if you'd got your papers one of them would be packing your suitcase and the other would have been driving you to Canada.

I'm not imagining that am I Tom.

They didn't say that in 1960. They said that in the 1980s. And my Granddad said he would have bought my plane ticket to Canada; he didn't like driving long distances. Dad mellowed. Granddad never supported the war in Vietnam.

And that's not why I deleted it.

That pretty much goes to my point that Ali was on the right side of history. I won't go as far as to say the war was immoral in and of itself . Totalitarianism is messed up and it's right to confront it. But it was stupid and as far as being wasteful in terms of life and treasure it was immoral.

[ThatOne]

"War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige that the warrior does today."

-John F. Kennedy
Thirty fifth president and WW ll War Hero

[raylawpc]

"The pacifist is as surely a traitor to his country and to humanity as is the most brutal wrongdoer."

Theodore Roosevelt
26th President and Spanish-American War Hero

[ThatOne]

"The conscientious objector is a revolutionary. On deciding to disobey the law he sacrifices his personal interests to the most important cause of working for the betterment of society."


Albert Einstein
Nobel Prize Winner for Physics

[ThatOne]

"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."

-Martin Luther King Jr.
Nobel Prize winner

[ThatOne]

"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."

-Martin Luther King Jr.
Nobel Prize winner