May have been at his 'absolute' best against Roberto Duran in the June 1980 Championship Bout, and was 'beaten'.
Age; 24 years, 1 Month {Lightning fast and great legs}.
Plus, Ray had defeated several 'strong' Light Middleweights up to this point.
* Tony Chiaverini
* Fernand Marcotte
* Marcos Geraldo
Marcos Geraldo was the 'beginning of the end' in a way for Leonard.
Leonard said that Geraldo hurt him with virtually every punch & it might have been the moment that started the process which eventually led to Leonard's retina becoming detached a few years later.
A detached retina ended Leotis Martin's career. That kind of saddened me because he was one of my favorite fighters of that era.
My uncle had a detached retina, had surgery done, was warned not to fight again, ignored the warning and lost his sight in that eye.
When SRL was making one of his comebacks my uncle wrote a letter to the New York Times about his experience that was published. I used to be able to find it online but no more.
Sad story.
It must have been horrible for your uncle.
In the case of Leotis Martin, he was coming off a spectacular win; a win which no other fighter, not even Ali had managed & that was sparking out Sonny Liston properly.
In the case of Leotis Martin, he was coming off a spectacular win; a win which no other fighter, not even Ali had managed & that was sparking out Sonny Liston properly.
That's one of my favourite KOs too.
-Syntax Error
It's ironic. My dad who was an amateur boxer and participated in the Golden Gloves, took shrapnel to his eye in WW ll during the Battle of North Africa, and lost sight in that eye despite several surgeries at Walter Reed to save it.
My uncle did o k... He opened up a could of bars in downtown Manhattan and made a lot of money.
Ezzard wrote:Ray was my favourite fighter when growing up. I had his posters on my wall.
Me too , I used to like him a lot more until I learned he used to beat/hit Juanita. He has expressed deep remorse and said he was high on coke and alcohol when it occurred.
It's sad when you learn that your hero has feet of clay.
Ezzard wrote:Ray was my favourite fighter when growing up. I had his posters on my wall.
Me too , I used to like him a lot more until I learned he used to beat/hit Juanita. He has expressed deep remorse and said he was high on coke and alcohol when it occurred.
It's sad when you learn that your hero has feet of clay.
Many men do that, I've always had more issues with using his son to further his brand and then neglecting him at home. I just keep it to the sports, despicable as a guy like Ali could be. He was still a great fighter.
Ambling Alp II wrote:
I know Moore at middleweight and that Walker didn't dominate at welterweight. That is my point. They moved up in weight and were better at the higher weight. Other fighters have done the same thing. Many move up and are at about the same level. Obviously it's not a perfect comparison with Duran the welterweight and Duran the lightweight. Duran was at lightweight for a much longer time. However, judging by the fights he had at welter there is no reason to say he wasn't as good.
Ezzard wrote:
But your point is irrelevant. Compare Moore at Middle to Duran at Feather…then Moore at 175 ad Duran at 135…where they both dominated and owned the division…then Duran at welter and Archie at Heavy… Archie was not as good at Heavy as he was at 175.
It just astounds me that weight divisions somehow don’t count.
Ambling Alp II wrote:
Duran did defeat bigger and stronger fighters in the welterweight division than he did in the lightweight division. However, Duran himself was bigger and stronger than he had been. You act as if he was weighing 135 to Leonard's 147.
Ezzard wrote:
No I’m not. You’re lurching to the extreme. And making things up again.
On average welterweights have longer reaches, are taller, have better punch resistance and hit harder… small advantages add up. When Leonard fought Kalule he was at a slight disadvantage…but he was so much better it had no bearing on the result of the fight.
If you put on 10 pounds of muscle you are stronger but not in the same way as someone who is naturally 10 pounds bigger than you. It’s diminishing returns.
Ambling Alp II wrote:
Other fighters dominated a weight class, moved up and were about as good. Henry Armstrong, Alexis Arguello, Barney Ross. Armstrong and Ross actually beat great fighters who were much bigger than themselves.
Ezzard wrote:
Armstrong is arguably the greatest fighter who ever lived… So yes…great example of how truly amazing it was of Duran.
Ross was a great Jr Welter.
Arguello really dominated 130 and whilst still great at 135 he made hard work of Ramirez and Mancini who were not in his league. He was clearly better at 130.
These examples prove my point.
Ambling Alp II wrote:
Btw, there are a several lightweights from other eras who would have dominated at 135 during Duran's era.
Ezzard wrote:
What’s that got to do with anything? Objectivity?
Ambling Alp II wrote:
Leonard lost Duran fair and square. Duran lost to Leonard fair and square. He wasn't old, and he weighed about the same as Leonard. As for the "crybaby" term, no I am not calling you a crybaby. Yes I think it's a crybaby excuse to say Duran was the smaller man. He wasn't. Other excuses that others have made such as he only had 5 months to prepare for the defense or the made up stomach problems that his own trainer said was BS are crybaby excuses as well.
Ezzard wrote:
Just find it really hard to believe that “cry baby” is a phrase you would use. I’ve got kids who’d sneer at that…
Leonard was already, in a physical sense, a Boxing God when he fought Duran. But possibly…probably…he was only 99% there mentally…he allowed Duran to intimidate him…perhaps the homosexuality that has since come to light was behind this… Perhaps Ray was confused and when Duran questioned his manhood it just hit the wrong/right buttons. I don’t know but its been clearly documented that Ray was worried going in.
Maybe this is the circumstance that effected Ray in the first fight. I think there is probably something in this.
Ray faced his demons…came out of the defeat with his head held high…
Duran could no longer pull his old stunts between fights. He got over confident and didn’t train to fight but trained to lose weight. He wasn’t as physically prepared as he should have been.
That’s it.
At welterweight they were even. But as Duran spent most of his career at a lower weight then it’s pretty obvious to most that he would get the higher p4p ranking.
Feather: Duran
Light: Duran
Welter: Even
Jr Middle: Leonard
Middle: Leonard
Super Middle: Leonard
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Obviously we aren't anywhere on the same page. Basically it comes down to you are much more impressed with Duran moving up in weight than I am. I don't really care that he spent a lot of time at a lower weight and you do. Time to move on. Feel free to have the last word if you want.
