i no most people on this forum probly have frazier resting in there top 10 list, almost def. top 15. Im not really sure where to place this guy though.. i have him as 9/10, but im losing confidence.
Could Frazier be overrated?.. is it just luck that his style made for great fights against ALI. he did get dominated by Foreman. and oscar bonavenu put up one hell of a fight.
Could Frazier Be Underrated?... is it more then luck in styles that led to great fights with the greatest boxer of all time. could the foreman fight have been unlucky, could foreman just have had the perfect style to whip frazier?
what are your thoughts. is his ranking around 5-8 where i prodominatly see him justified? or maybe he should be higher. or lower? what are your thoughts.. please share..
Joe Fraziers place among history..
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Rory McCloskey
- Heavyweight
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BrocktonBlockbuster49
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4900
- Joined: 29 May 2005, 00:32
hes defintley top 10
- i have him at 8, but i can defintley see him higher and have no complaints of someone rating him higher than 8th.
- u need to realize frazier never really lost at his best. after the ali fight he was never the same aagain. and let me tell u frazier beat a really good 29 year old ali. fraizer put on 10lb of fat, and lost his reflexes, speed. i still think foreman would have always beat frazier, but a peak frazier would have put up a better fight.
- we never did see a prime frazier lose really and frazier beat a lot of solid top heavyweights
george chuvalo- 6' 217lb hard puncher and incredible chin and toughness. frazier took apart a good heavyweight like chuvalo ripping out his eye nearly, and came close to flooring chuvalo.
oscar bonavena- 6'1 205lb tough chinned solid puncher heavyweight. bonavena might have floored a green fraazier, but we all saw what frazier did to him in the rematch outclassing him over 15.
muhammad ali- beat a slightly past his prime but still 29 year old incredible muhammad ali in FOTC. not a lot of others can claim a win like thiss.
buster mathis - 6'4 245lb people forget how good mathis was at the time. he was undefeatedt and defintley at his peak with solid boxing skill for a large man, frazier knocked him out in 11 with aa great preformance.
manuel ramos- 6'3 208lb a hard hittter who stunned frazier in round 1. frazier dismantled him in 2.
bob foster - all time light-H , frazier easily knocked out foster in 2 rounds.
jimmy ellis- 6'2 200lb, ellis was a very good boxer and WBA champ and frazier took him apaprt in only 4 rounds knocking him down twice and forcing ellis to retire in his corner.
jerry quarry- 6' 198lb one of the best heavyweights never to win a title. frazier took quarry apart stopping quarry in 7 rounds.
as u see frazier beat an incredible good list of depth and solid top contenders including career defining win over muhammad ali who still had a ton left.
frazier at his peak was tough for anyone
- frazier problem was he was too predictable. he moved his head fast and it made it look tough to hit him, but that wasnt the case. it moved in the same direction same speed every time and u could time it easily. frazier also didnt have the KO power in both hands, and always went forward leaving his head open.
that said he had one of the greatest left hooks of all time, incredible work ethic and stamina, very aggresive, possibly the best body puncher, he had good handspeed, incredible heart.
- i have him at 8, but i can defintley see him higher and have no complaints of someone rating him higher than 8th.
- u need to realize frazier never really lost at his best. after the ali fight he was never the same aagain. and let me tell u frazier beat a really good 29 year old ali. fraizer put on 10lb of fat, and lost his reflexes, speed. i still think foreman would have always beat frazier, but a peak frazier would have put up a better fight.
- we never did see a prime frazier lose really and frazier beat a lot of solid top heavyweights
george chuvalo- 6' 217lb hard puncher and incredible chin and toughness. frazier took apart a good heavyweight like chuvalo ripping out his eye nearly, and came close to flooring chuvalo.
oscar bonavena- 6'1 205lb tough chinned solid puncher heavyweight. bonavena might have floored a green fraazier, but we all saw what frazier did to him in the rematch outclassing him over 15.
muhammad ali- beat a slightly past his prime but still 29 year old incredible muhammad ali in FOTC. not a lot of others can claim a win like thiss.
buster mathis - 6'4 245lb people forget how good mathis was at the time. he was undefeatedt and defintley at his peak with solid boxing skill for a large man, frazier knocked him out in 11 with aa great preformance.
manuel ramos- 6'3 208lb a hard hittter who stunned frazier in round 1. frazier dismantled him in 2.
bob foster - all time light-H , frazier easily knocked out foster in 2 rounds.
jimmy ellis- 6'2 200lb, ellis was a very good boxer and WBA champ and frazier took him apaprt in only 4 rounds knocking him down twice and forcing ellis to retire in his corner.
jerry quarry- 6' 198lb one of the best heavyweights never to win a title. frazier took quarry apart stopping quarry in 7 rounds.
as u see frazier beat an incredible good list of depth and solid top contenders including career defining win over muhammad ali who still had a ton left.
frazier at his peak was tough for anyone
- frazier problem was he was too predictable. he moved his head fast and it made it look tough to hit him, but that wasnt the case. it moved in the same direction same speed every time and u could time it easily. frazier also didnt have the KO power in both hands, and always went forward leaving his head open.
that said he had one of the greatest left hooks of all time, incredible work ethic and stamina, very aggresive, possibly the best body puncher, he had good handspeed, incredible heart.
I don't think the punishment from the Ali fight affected him as much as the perceptions of people from what Ali was saying. Ali called him dumb and an Uncle Tom, and thus even after his great win Frazier did not get the respect he deserved from fight fans. That hurt him deeply. Plus, he sat on the title and fought Stander and Daniels. Wasting away your prime years fighting nobodies will sap any fighter's ability.BoxBuzz wrote:Yeah in the first Ali fight he won the fight and lost the war. He was never the same and he had a much bigger beating put on him that night than the loser did oddly enough.
Do you really think Frazier was hurt more from the first Ali fight? An argument can be made that it was Ali who was hurt more. Yes, Frazier went to the hospital and had facial damage but Ali has never received a body beating like he did from Frazier in that first fight. Just because the punishment was not visual (you can't see body punishment, but face punishment is easy to see) does not mean Ali wasn't beat up.
Those who were close can speak of the difference in each fighters days right after the event. There was a marked difference in their energy levels and how long it took each of them to "bounce back'.
It's been pretty well documented for those who are purely neutral. If you've got a bias you will argue one way or the other.
It's been pretty well documented for those who are purely neutral. If you've got a bias you will argue one way or the other.
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tiredoldngrey
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 442
- Joined: 23 May 2005, 12:36
Frazier had short arms, was essentially one armed and his power was overrated. He had to land lots of punches on most guys to get it done. He was easy to hit and did not take a punch exceptionally well once he agreed to take it (or, it took a second to hurt him but he stayed that way) In my view not top 25 maybe not even top 30 or 40
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dempseyfire
- Heavyweight
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sockdolager
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 1455
- Joined: 17 Jun 2005, 08:57
wow, not in the top 25-40! yikes, hes top 15 as Rory said, anywhere from 8-15 is debatable.tiredoldngrey wrote:Frazier had short arms, was essentially one armed and his power was overrated. He had to land lots of punches on most guys to get it done. He was easy to hit and did not take a punch exceptionally well once he agreed to take it (or, it took a second to hurt him but he stayed that way) In my view not top 25 maybe not even top 30 or 40
Frazier claims that he went to the hospital from high blood pressure and Ali tried to make it look like it was from how bad he beat him.dnahar32 wrote:I don't think the punishment from the Ali fight affected him as much as the perceptions of people from what Ali was saying. Ali called him dumb and an Uncle Tom, and thus even after his great win Frazier did not get the respect he deserved from fight fans. That hurt him deeply. Plus, he sat on the title and fought Stander and Daniels. Wasting away your prime years fighting nobodies will sap any fighter's ability.BoxBuzz wrote:Yeah in the first Ali fight he won the fight and lost the war. He was never the same and he had a much bigger beating put on him that night than the loser did oddly enough.
Do you really think Frazier was hurt more from the first Ali fight? An argument can be made that it was Ali who was hurt more. Yes, Frazier went to the hospital and had facial damage but Ali has never received a body beating like he did from Frazier in that first fight. Just because the punishment was not visual (you can't see body punishment, but face punishment is easy to see) does not mean Ali wasn't beat up.
If Frazier is not in your top 40, you must be mad. Frazier beat a PRIME Ali.tiredoldngrey wrote:Frazier had short arms, was essentially one armed and his power was overrated. He had to land lots of punches on most guys to get it done. He was easy to hit and did not take a punch exceptionally well once he agreed to take it (or, it took a second to hurt him but he stayed that way) In my view not top 25 maybe not even top 30 or 40
I have a little problem with Joe.
I admired the guy, he was relentless when coming forward and was one of these guys that the only way to beat him was literally to KO him.
Both Ali & Foreman beat the shit out of him and he kept coming. For this reason alone makes me admire him over Tyson.
However he was one sided, keep him on the end of a long jab and stick & move, keep him off balance and you will outpoint him.
George was just too big and powerful and blasted him. Ali beat the shit out of him on all 3 fights but Joe had the edge points wise plus the late knockdown to win the first.
I would be hard pressed to place Joe in the top 7 or 8 of all time.
I admired the guy, he was relentless when coming forward and was one of these guys that the only way to beat him was literally to KO him.
Both Ali & Foreman beat the shit out of him and he kept coming. For this reason alone makes me admire him over Tyson.
However he was one sided, keep him on the end of a long jab and stick & move, keep him off balance and you will outpoint him.
George was just too big and powerful and blasted him. Ali beat the shit out of him on all 3 fights but Joe had the edge points wise plus the late knockdown to win the first.
I would be hard pressed to place Joe in the top 7 or 8 of all time.
Gettin beat on that bad would likely raise anyones blood pressure. Anyway you slice it Frazier took a big beating that night it was brutal. Technicaly he won the fight but from front row accounts it seems Ali was right about who was more "beaten" in the ring.
This particular scenario gets everybody's blood pressure up and I'm not trying to do that. I'm a no excuse's advocate. Frazier's hand went up, he knocked Ali down and he won the fight. But this other "measurement" of a fight has an interesting twist.
Who would you rather have been at the end of that fight, if there was no "glory" attached?
Ali is the answer to that question, he did not take as bad a beating...OR..his recuperative powers were just head over heals superior to that of Joes. Either way the answer to that Question is Ali.
And I am not biased. Frazier is in my top 6 fighters of all time and I like him very much consider him a legend, and have met him personally. I am biased to the fighters of that era but to no one fighter in particular. I believe I make my assessments on the empirical data available to me.
And if credible data came in that countered this effectively, I would simply change my opinion.
This particular scenario gets everybody's blood pressure up and I'm not trying to do that. I'm a no excuse's advocate. Frazier's hand went up, he knocked Ali down and he won the fight. But this other "measurement" of a fight has an interesting twist.
Who would you rather have been at the end of that fight, if there was no "glory" attached?
Ali is the answer to that question, he did not take as bad a beating...OR..his recuperative powers were just head over heals superior to that of Joes. Either way the answer to that Question is Ali.
And I am not biased. Frazier is in my top 6 fighters of all time and I like him very much consider him a legend, and have met him personally. I am biased to the fighters of that era but to no one fighter in particular. I believe I make my assessments on the empirical data available to me.
And if credible data came in that countered this effectively, I would simply change my opinion.
Ha Ha Ha LMAO
Point taking, Big George didn't give him the chance to he just blasted him.
with the exception of George every other opponent he fought was met with this human wrecking ball coming at them.
But like I said stick and move keep your jab in his face and keep him off balance and you beat Joe. People didn't do that (except Ali)
Point taking, Big George didn't give him the chance to he just blasted him.
with the exception of George every other opponent he fought was met with this human wrecking ball coming at them.
But like I said stick and move keep your jab in his face and keep him off balance and you beat Joe. People didn't do that (except Ali)
What are you talking about If there was no glory attached.BoxBuzz wrote:Gettin beat on that bad would likely raise anyones blood pressure. Anyway you slice it Frazier took a big beating that night it was brutal. Technicaly he won the fight but from front row accounts it seems Ali was right about who was more "beaten" in the ring.
This particular scenario gets everybody's blood pressure up and I'm not trying to do that. I'm a no excuse's advocate. Frazier's hand went up, he knocked Ali down and he won the fight. But this other "measurement" of a fight has an interesting twist.
Who would you rather have been at the end of that fight, if there was no "glory" attached?
Ali is the answer to that question, he did not take as bad a beating...OR..his recuperative powers were just head over heals superior to that of Joes. Either way the answer to that Question is Ali.
And I am not biased. Frazier is in my top 6 fighters of all time and I like him very much consider him a legend, and have met him personally. I am biased to the fighters of that era but to no one fighter in particular. I believe I make my assessments on the empirical data available to me.
And if credible data came in that countered this effectively, I would simply change my opinion.
Frazier beat Ali's ass in that fight. Ali lost to a better man.
Accept it, and get over it.
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dempseyfire
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 29 Oct 2003, 22:56
I hate to bring it up, but I really think those who have boxed before can truly understand what a fornicating animal Frazier was.
Someone with a great chin, who doesn't stop moving forward, doesn't stop moving his head, KILLS the body, dynamite left hand, and ask Jerry Quarry if Frazier's right hand was a sharp and damaging blow. That's a boxer's worst nightmare. A guy who makes you work your ass off all 3 minutes of every round, and makes you wary of coming out for another one.
Stick and move? Ali tried it, Ellis tried it, Mathis and Machen tried it. These were all very skilled boxers. Frazier ate them up and spit them out.
Big guys? Mathis, Ramos, and Bugner were all skilled big men and Frazier beat them too. Bonavena was basically an inshape Tua (less of a puncher but more awkward and better stamina) . . very compact and strong guy, and Frazier got up from 2 knockdowns to outwork the South American and bully him around the ring.
Foreman got Frazier past his best. Still a forminable guy, but just watch the film of Frazier vs Mathis, Ellis, Quarry 1, and Ali 1 and then the Frazier of Stander, Ali 11 and 111, Quarry 11 etc. Still a very dangerous and great fighter but not the same force.
Only the strong big power jabbers have a chance vs Frazier at his best (Foreman, Liston, Louis) I'd give Rocky and Dempsey 50-50 odds they can outswarm the swarmer. Damn those would've been gruelling fights.
Frazier is a CERTAIN top 10 heavyweight.
Someone with a great chin, who doesn't stop moving forward, doesn't stop moving his head, KILLS the body, dynamite left hand, and ask Jerry Quarry if Frazier's right hand was a sharp and damaging blow. That's a boxer's worst nightmare. A guy who makes you work your ass off all 3 minutes of every round, and makes you wary of coming out for another one.
Stick and move? Ali tried it, Ellis tried it, Mathis and Machen tried it. These were all very skilled boxers. Frazier ate them up and spit them out.
Big guys? Mathis, Ramos, and Bugner were all skilled big men and Frazier beat them too. Bonavena was basically an inshape Tua (less of a puncher but more awkward and better stamina) . . very compact and strong guy, and Frazier got up from 2 knockdowns to outwork the South American and bully him around the ring.
Foreman got Frazier past his best. Still a forminable guy, but just watch the film of Frazier vs Mathis, Ellis, Quarry 1, and Ali 1 and then the Frazier of Stander, Ali 11 and 111, Quarry 11 etc. Still a very dangerous and great fighter but not the same force.
Only the strong big power jabbers have a chance vs Frazier at his best (Foreman, Liston, Louis) I'd give Rocky and Dempsey 50-50 odds they can outswarm the swarmer. Damn those would've been gruelling fights.
Frazier is a CERTAIN top 10 heavyweight.
You are quite correct he was an animal but one that could be tamed aka Foreman & Ali.
As far as the blasts from the past facing him, of the 5 mentioned Foreman beat him, and IMO only Louis would beat him.
Liston....I think Joes relentless movement would get under Sonny's skin and a big left hook would eventually win it for Joe.
As for the swarmers, yes they would be wars, but I think Frazier would emerge victorious against both.
I have stated earlier that I rate Joe within my top ten, but its only guys like Ali, Louis, Holmes, Foreman who would beat him there are one or two others who would go to the wire and possibly sneak it but it would be close.
As far as the blasts from the past facing him, of the 5 mentioned Foreman beat him, and IMO only Louis would beat him.
Liston....I think Joes relentless movement would get under Sonny's skin and a big left hook would eventually win it for Joe.
As for the swarmers, yes they would be wars, but I think Frazier would emerge victorious against both.
I have stated earlier that I rate Joe within my top ten, but its only guys like Ali, Louis, Holmes, Foreman who would beat him there are one or two others who would go to the wire and possibly sneak it but it would be close.
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Rory McCloskey
- Heavyweight
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i would agree with both you and BB that the first fight with Ali really took alot out of him and did affect the rest of his careerBoxBuzz wrote:Yeah in the first Ali fight he won the fight and lost the war. He was never the same and he had a much bigger beating put on him that night than the loser did oddly enough.
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BrocktonBlockbuster49
- Heavyweight
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Cojimar 1945
- Heavyweight
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hmm
How on earth is Frazier going to possibly beat Lewis or Tyson?
I doubt Frazier would have beaten Tyson or Holmes.BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:i agree with everything dempseyfire said
i think joe louis, peak ali, foreman, liston beat frazier
I think rocky marciano, jack dempsey beat frazier
I think frazier beats tyson, HOLMES, lewis, holyfield, jeffries
Frazier DID beat peak Ali, and he would KO Lennox Lewis.
Frazier is top 10 material without any doubt.
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BrocktonBlockbuster49
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