Let's Review the Career of the Great Ezzard Charles

[Ezzard]

So Joe Gans or Benny Leonard being in top 5 is odd? It's never too late to learn... Throw Langford and Armstrong out and replace them with those two, and it may start to look reasonable.

Those two are the ones who usually get touted. Sometimes Pep.

[Senya13]

I see no point argueing with somebody who starts the debate with "Langford beat Gans". And Langford was humiliated by Jack Blackburn two weeks later. And Blackburn, in turn, was outpointed by 132-pound Mike Twin Sullivan a week later, and then by Sam Bolen in another week.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I see no point argueing with somebody who starts the debate with "Langford beat Gans". And Langford was humiliated by Jack Blackburn two weeks later. And Blackburn, in turn, was outpointed by Mike Twin Sullivan a week later, and then by Sam Bolen in another week.

No point in arguing? Again?

The fact that Langford beat Gans in his least accomplished division speaks volumes. I wasn't starting a 'debate', I was pointing out a fact. Why would I bother debating someone whose only information is that there is no point in a debate?

[Senya13]

If you studied Gans, you should be aware of the circumstances. Had Gans taken Langford seriously, he'd not be meeting him the next day after fighting Dave Holly in Philadelphia. It may be an excuse, but Herford claimed Gans hurt one of his hands in Langford bout. It's also not clear, whether he was in good health for Langford, as Gans was put to bed with very severe pneumonia several days later, when he had to cancel the bout with Jack Blackburn, scheduled for December 18 (which also shows that none of these three opponents, Holly, Blackburn and Langford were not yet seen as major opponents for Gans, that he was scheduled to meet all three in such a short period of time).

[SaadOffTheDeck]

If you studied Gans, you should be aware of the circumstances. Had Gans taken Langford seriously, he'd not be meeting him the next day after fighting Dave Holly in Philadelphia. It may be an excuse, but Herford claimed Gans hurt one of his hands in Langford bout. It's also not clear, whether he was in good health for Langford, as Gans was put to bed with very severe pneumonia several days later, when he had to cancel the bout with Jack Blackburn, scheduled for December 18 (which also shows that none of these three opponents, Holly, Blackburn and Langford were not yet seen as major opponents for Gans, that he was scheduled to meet all three in such a short period of time).

I don't pay much attention to excuses. So Gans was greater than langford because he wasn't 100% when Sam beat him? And you're talking about my faulty logic?

[Senya13]

If you see Gans facing Holly in Philadelphia for 6 rounds, then going by train to Boston to meet Langford for 15 rounds the very next day, as an excuse, like I said, this makes me doubt you have studied either fighter, to debate with you.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

If you see Gans facing Holly in Philadelphia for 6 rounds, then going by train to Boston to meet Langford for 15 rounds the very next day, as an excuse, like I said, this makes me doubt you have studied either fighter, to debate with you.

[Senya13]

Have Ezzard Charles meet Charley Burley for 6 rounds in Pittsburgh, then go by train to Cleveland to meet Lloyd Marshall for 15 rounds, and see how he does that. Wait, that's just an excuse, he should have been able to beat both without much problem.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Have Ezzard Charles meet Charley Burley for 6 rounds in Pittsburgh, then go by train to Cleveland to meet Lloyd Marshall for 15 rounds, and see how he does that.

You forgot to mention how there is no point in talking about it. Are you fucked up? Do you want to talk about it or not? If you do, you'll have to do better than coming up with excuses why gans lost to Langford if you want me to take you seriously.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

If it helps you to stop obsessing over it, Langford would be more accomplished than Gans if Joe had won that fight. Anyway, I've got a meeting to get into. I'll look forward to more posts about how there is no point in talking to me.

[Senya13]

I said I see no point of debating who Gans and Langford beat, drew with or lost to, if your knowledge about them is limited to "Langford beat Gans" (that's all the knowledge you have shown so far about either in this thread). Me pointing out the details about their fight is not a debate, I'm merely listing the facts.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

No, you said there is no point in debating me because I obviously don't know what I'm talking about. If that's your opinion of my knowledge, why are you still talking? If you think you have something to teach me, stop with the bullshit and do it. As I said I'm always willing to learn, but you've offered nothing but petty, condescending posts that have offered me nothing I didn't already know.

That era isn't my wheelhouse, but I'm far from ignorant to the period. Do you really expect me to type out a novel in response to you saying there is no point in us discussing it? I mentioned Langford beating Gans because you tossed Sam aside like he was nothing yet he beat a top 5 Lightweight well before his prime.

What makes Gans greater than Langford? Tell me, I'm all ears. Listing reasons why he lost to him is a flimsy start to it. You're the high and mighty one who is up on your own pedestal. Bring something other than there is no point in talking and I'll happily counter your argument.

[elmersalsa]

Of the top ten greatest fighters poun per pound, the greats Ezzard Charles and Joe Gans are the MOST UNDERRATED. Probably Charles is the most underrated fighter of all time

[dnahar32]

I personally rank Langford over Gans, but I can vouch for Senya's extensive research on the early career of Gans for BoxRec. He would know more about him than just about anyone on this board. One thing that hurt Gans is that the lightweight limit of 133lbs severely weakened him in most of his title fights. Even if the limit were two pounds higher, like today, I believe that Gans would have been a far more accomplished fighter. The stories before many of his fights, especially the big ones against Nelson, were about making weight (stripped 133lbs ringside in most instances) and the negotiations were also all biased against him because he didn't have the leverage that the white fighters of the time held. A 140lb division would have been perfect for him. Langford could freely grow into a heavyweight and most heavyweights were in the 180s and 190s back then.

[elmersalsa]

Under-appreciated, but not Overrated.

Charles was never overrated.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I personally rank Langford over Gans, but I can vouch for Senya's extensive research on the early career of Gans for BoxRec. He would know more about him than just about anyone on this board. One thing that hurt Gans is that the lightweight limit of 133lbs severely weakened him in most of his title fights. Even if the limit were two pounds higher, like today, I believe that Gans would have been a far more accomplished fighter. The stories before many of his fights, especially the big ones against Nelson, were about making weight (stripped 133lbs ringside in most instances) and the negotiations were also all biased against him because he didn't have the leverage that the white fighters of the time held. A 140lb division would have been perfect for him. Langford could freely grow into a heavyweight and most heavyweights were in the 180s and 190s back then.

I never said he didn't know what he's talking about it. My knowledge of that time frame isn't near the best on the board and I said several times I'm always interested in learning about fighters,but Senya hasn't offered any relevant information.

Langford can't be penalized for being larger, covering that much ground in his career is what makes him so unique. Top 2 all time imo, I bounce back and forth with Sam and Greb. Gans would be in my top 20.

[elmersalsa]

Well, these are the most defining fights of this all time great. Deservely so, a top 10 all time p4p great.

Defining Fight: W15 Joe Louis... September 27, 1950... Becomes recognized universal world heavyweight champion

Other Defining Fights: W10 Charley Burley, W10 Jimmy Bivins (II), LKO8 Lloyd Marshall, WKO 2 Lloyd Marshall (lII), W10 Joey Maxim, and LKO8 Rocky Marciano (lI)

[gilgamesh]

Well, these are the most defining fights of this all time great. Deservely so, a top 10 all time p4p great.

Defining Fight: W15 Joe Louis... September 27, 1950... Becomes recognized universal world heavyweight champion

Other Defining Fights: W10 Charley Burley, W10 Jimmy Bivins (II), LKO8 Lloyd Marshall, WKO 2 Lloyd Marshall (lII), W10 Joey Maxim, and LKO8 Rocky Marciano (lI)

Some more defining fights: W10 Archie Moore 2x, KO 8 Archie Moore, W10 Jimmy Bivins 3x, KO 4 Jimmy Bivins, KO 9 Elmer Ray, W15 Jersey Joe Walcott 2x, KO 10 Coley Wallace, KO 2 Bob Satterfield


It should be noted that he beat Charley Burley 2x and Joey Maxim 5x twice via 10 round decision and twice via 15 round decision, once via 12 round decision.

An unbelievable resume. Having beat Archie Moore 3 times, Jimmy Bivins 4 times, Joey Maxim 5 times, Jersey Joe 2 times (he lost 2 other times), Charley Burley twice and a slew of other solid contenders

He lost to Jimmy Bivins once for the record, but when you beat a guy 4 other times I think it pretty well proves you're the superior fighter. Jimmy Bivins was no chump himself.

[elmersalsa]

Forgive me. I forgot to put Charles KO8 victory over the great Archie Moore. I was on my break when I post his defining fights and in a hurry. D
Definately his win over Moore, the last one was without a doubt his best performance
Does anybody got that fight on film?

[elmersalsa]

Well, these are the most defining fights of this all time great. Deservely so, a top 10 all time p4p great.

Defining Fight: W15 Joe Louis... September 27, 1950... Becomes recognized universal world heavyweight champion

Other Defining Fights: W10 Charley Burley, W10 Jimmy Bivins (II), LKO8 Lloyd Marshall, WKO 2 Lloyd Marshall (lII), W10 Joey Maxim, and LKO8 Rocky Marciano (lI)

Some more defining fights: W10 Archie Moore 2x, KO 8 Archie Moore, W10 Jimmy Bivins 3x, KO 4 Jimmy Bivins, KO 9 Elmer Ray, W15 Jersey Joe Walcott 2x, KO 10 Coley Wallace, KO 2 Bob Satterfield


It should be noted that he beat Charley Burley 2x and Joey Maxim 5x twice via 10 round decision and twice via 15 round decision, once via 12 round decision.

An unbelievable resume. Having beat Archie Moore 3 times, Jimmy Bivins 4 times, Joey Maxim 5 times, Jersey Joe 2 times (he lost 2 other times), Charley Burley twice and a slew of other solid contenders

He lost to Jimmy Bivins once for the record, but when you beat a guy 4 other times I think it pretty well proves you're the superior fighter. Jimmy Bivins was no chump himself.

No doubt about that gilgamesh. Maybe Charles on the media will be more appreciated.

[elmersalsa]

Under-Appreciated

Inactive from April 1, 1943 - thru - February 17, 1946

Active in the United States Army {1943 thru 1945}

Returns - February 1946.

Between February 18, 1946 - thru - July 15, 1951

In 5+ years, Ezzard goes 39-1-0 {25 KO's}, and his only loss was a highly disputed
10-Round Decision to Elmer Ray.

From Ages {24 years, 7 months} to {30 years, 0 months}

'The Cincinnati Cobra'

That is a hell of a prime

[elmersalsa]

The highlights of the great Ezzard Charles:

World Heavyweight Champion 1949-51
Made 9 world title defenses
The Ring Fighter of the Year in 1949 and 1950
Beat the great Archie Moore 3 times...Is the only fighter that Moore could not beat in his heyday.
Fought a total of 11 world champions, beating 7 of them.
Record vs world champs was 14-6-1, 3KOs
Fought 8 hall of famers. Was 17-6, 2 KOs against them.
Unbeaten in 24 fights from Sep 1947 to May 1951. Record in that time frame was 24-9, 15KOs.
KO Pct is 60%
Unbeaten streak total over 10 bouts was 59.
Inducted into the IBHOF in 1990.

Great career? Yes
A top ten pound per pound all time? Definately a yes!

[elmersalsa]

The highlights of the great Ezzard Charles:

World Heavyweight Champion 1949-51
Made 9 world title defenses
The Ring Fighter of the Year in 1949 and 1950
Beat the great Archie Moore 3 times...Is the only fighter that Moore could not beat in his heyday.
Fought a total of 11 world champions, beating 7 of them.
Record vs world champs was 14-6-1, 3KOs
Fought 8 hall of famers. Was 17-6, 2 KOs against them.
Unbeaten in 24 fights from Sep 1947 to May 1951. Record in that time frame was 24-9, 15KOs.
KO Pct is 60%
Unbeaten streak total over 10 bouts was 59.
Inducted into the IBHOF in 1990.

Great career? Yes
A top ten pound per pound all time? Definately a yes!

I meant 24-0, 15KOs

[Ambling Alp II]

Well, these are the most defining fights of this all time great. Deservely so, a top 10 all time p4p great.

Defining Fight: W15 Joe Louis... September 27, 1950... Becomes recognized universal world heavyweight champion

Other Defining Fights: W10 Charley Burley, W10 Jimmy Bivins (II), LKO8 Lloyd Marshall, WKO 2 Lloyd Marshall (lII), W10 Joey Maxim, and LKO8 Rocky Marciano (lI)

Just to play the devil's advocate-How about losing to Rex Layne and Nino Valdes? Are they defining?

[BoxBuzz]

Charles is on my list of my 5 favorite fighters of all time.

Legend, and one amazing athlete.