The World Heavyweight Championship in the 1960s

[elmersalsa]

What if instead of the great Muhammad Ali was not around in the 60s and let us say if Ken Norton, or the greats Joe Frazier or George Foreman would be the one that dethrone the great Sonny Liston. Would they had the same success in their title defenses with the same group of contenders Ali fought. Ali made 9 title defenses against these guys:
Liston in the rematch
Floyd Patterson
George Chuvalo
Karl Middlenberger
Henry Cooper
Cleveland Williams
Brian London
Ernie Terrell
Zora Folley

Let us put them at the same schedule when they fought Ali. Would it be different or Norton, Foreman or Frazier would have kept their crowns just like Ali did. I would like to see your comments. Remember. Same schedule and order of opponents if they beat Liston in the first fight. But remember also that they got to defend it with Liston in rematch for first title defense.

[gilgamesh]

Yes I believe Frazier, Norton or Foreman would've beaten those particular title challengers.

[yancey]

What if instead of the great Muhammad Ali was not around in the 60s and let us say if Ken Norton, or the greats Joe Frazier or George Foreman would be the one that dethrone the great Sonny Liston. Would they had the same success in their title defenses with the same group of contenders Ali fought. Ali made 9 title defenses against these guys:
Liston in the rematch
Floyd Patterson
George Chuvalo
Karl Middlenberger
Henry Cooper
Cleveland Williams
Brian London
Ernie Terrell
Zora Folley

Let us put them at the same schedule when they fought Ali. Would it be different or Norton, Foreman or Frazier would have kept their crowns just like Ali did. I would like to see your comments. Remember. Same schedule and order of opponents if they beat Liston in the first fight. But remember also that they got to defend it with Liston in rematch for first title defense.

Are we also assuming Liston takes a dive like he did in Ali's first defense?

Frazier and Foreman would DESTROY the rest of that line-up.

In fact, I think Frazier could have beaten Mildenberger, the literally shot Cleveland Williams, Cooper and London in one night.

Can you imagine what Frazier and Foreman would have done to Cooper and London? Please park the ambulance at ringside!

Look what they both did to Chuvalo, who actually was Ali's toughest challenger!

Face it, by and large these are some real stiffs. Floyd, George and Sonny excepted.

Terrell was a decent fighter, but Frazier would have broken the tall guy in two.

p.s. I leave out Norton in this matter. Great guy, very good fighter, but not in the Frazier and Foreman class.

[Ambling Alp II]

Hard to say if Foreman and Frazier would have gone 2-0 vs Liston, or even won it from him in the first place. I think they are better than even bets to beat him once, but Liston certainly would have had a serious chance. Had they beaten Liston for the title and then defended it successfully against him, they would have beaten everyone else.
Chuvalo would not have been beaten nearly as easily by Frazier and Foreman at that time. He was much younger and had much less wear and tear on him in 1966 than when he fought Frazier and Foreman. Against Frazier, he would win 4-5 rounds and go the distance; similar to Frazier-Bonavena II. Against Foreman, he makes it until at least the middle rounds.
Terrell may have made it interesting for a while as well; similar to Frazier-Mathis.
Mildenberger was tricky and would last until the middle rounds vs Frazier; probably only lasts until 4th or 5th vs Foreman.

Norton is a different story. Hard to imagine him beating Liston once, let alone twice.
Even if he somehow does that, Norton-Patterson would be a pretty evenly matched fight.
Norton would then be a solid favorite vs everyone else, but even then then he may not run the table. On a given night, Terrell, and Chuvalo would have a chance to pull off an upset. Mildenberger and Folley may have been competitive.
Cooper and Williams would have had only remote puncher's chance. London would have been a fairly easy win for Norton.

[elmersalsa]

So are you guys saying that Foreman and Frazier would have had the same success?

[gilgamesh]

So are you guys saying that Foreman and Frazier would have had the same success?

That's what I'm saying, yes.

Norton too in my view, though I'm not 100% sure Norton would've taken the title from Liston to begin with. Foreman and Frazier definitely would've been able to beat that crop of contenders.

[yancey]

Hard to say if Foreman and Frazier would have gone 2-0 vs Liston, or even won it from him in the first place. I think they are better than even bets to beat him once, but Liston certainly would have had a serious chance. Had they beaten Liston for the title and then defended it successfully against him, they would have beaten everyone else.
Chuvalo would not have been beaten nearly as easily by Frazier and Foreman at that time. He was much younger and had much less wear and tear on him in 1966 than when he fought Frazier and Foreman. Against Frazier, he would win 4-5 rounds and go the distance; similar to Frazier-Bonavena II. Against Foreman, he makes it until at least the middle rounds.
Terrell may have made it interesting for a while as well; similar to Frazier-Mathis.
Mildenberger was tricky and would last until the middle rounds vs Frazier; probably only lasts until 4th or 5th vs Foreman.

Norton is a different story. Hard to imagine him beating Liston once, let alone twice.
Even if he somehow does that, Norton-Patterson would be a pretty evenly matched fight.
Norton would then be a solid favorite vs everyone else, but even then then he may not run the table. On a given night, Terrell, and Chuvalo would have a chance to pull off an upset. Mildenberger and Folley may have been competitive.
Cooper and Williams would have had only remote puncher's chance. London would have been a fairly easy win for Norton.

Chuvalo was "much younger" and had "much less wear and tear" on him in 1966 than when he fought Frazier, right?

You do understand that it was mid-1967 when Chuvalo met the up and coming Frazier, don't you?

There was no difference in the March, 1966 Chuvalo and the July, 1967 version.

Your statement is a gross exaggeration.

[Ambling Alp II]

Saying there was no difference is the gross exaggeration. Chuvalo had little defense and took a lot of punishment in his fights, even when he won. He took an awful lot of punishment in the Ali fight; he got hit with quite a few shots over 15 rounds. He also had a very tough fight with Bonavena after the Ali fight and before he fought Frazier, in which he took a lot of punishment. He had no less than 14 fights in between his fight with Ali and his fight with Frazier.

Chuvalo was clearly past his best by the time he fought Frazier.