Dariusz Michalczewski

[Autobarn]

Didn't get much of a positive response on the "boxers of the past" forum, but over here, with the british crowd, we have a good appreciation of European boxers.

How good was Dariusz? Was he the powerhouse he looked vs Virgil Hill, or was he just the protected guy who didn't reach his potential for fighting too many softies? Was he the linear champ, or is he unworthy of recognition for not fighting to keep the WBA/IBF belts, etc...

IMO there hasn't been a great light heavy since the Spinks, Qawi, Saad Muhammad era. Fighters these days can get away without being great. But they still can be very good. I think peak DM (94-99) would've had a great shot at beating a guy like Tarver (who seems to crumble a bit under pressure).

[Axe]

Tarver was made for DM, DM wouldve either beat him by a very wide margin or stopped him late. Its not even close. Prime DM gives any light heavyweight in history all sorts of nightmares; average skills, but solid power, incredible stamina and an incredible shotgun jab that would stay in your face over 12 rounds. I remember when he was way past it, in the Hall rematch, wobbling Hall with a jab, as in truly hurting him, and then flurrying to follow up to cause the (somewhat controversial) stoppage.

DM was kind of unfortunate, as soon as he beat the WBO champ, 28 year old Leo Barber (top flight light heavy at the time from Kronk's gym), he and his team wanted Maske, who was in his prime. Maske ducked him and got beat by Hill, and then DM showed Maske up by thrashing Hill in Hill's next fight. But then Jones ducked DM, and with that French coward Tiozzo dropping his belt rather than facing Jones (or DM) DM and Jones were left with little competition.

[Max Molyneux]

Tiozzo waited till DM was past it.

Don't know I hear it was Jones who ducked most.

[Autobarn]

Tiozzo waited till DM was past it.

Don't know I hear it was Jones who ducked most.

Tiozzo did a great job on Michalczewski. Unfortunately Tiozzo's prime was wasted on good meals and cruiserweight fights.

I agree, DM was an absolute powerhouse. His left was heavy. Hardly ever used his right. I reckon prime Tarver would've fallen apart vs a '94'99 DM.

[barry]

As I said elsewhere, DM was a good, solid pro, but was nothing special. He feasted on very, very weak opposition throughout his career and never come out of Germany to fight, unless it was an opponent who was little, to no risk.

As far as the DM-Jones bout not happening, it was both their faults...no one more than the other, though Jones said he would take the fight in England, but DM would not come out of Germany for the bout, so you can decide who really wanted it more!

As far as the opponents that DM should have faced, well he could have probably beaten most, but had he fought nothing but top ten contenders he would have endured a loss a lot earlier than he did! Most of the opponents that he defended against were not even B level fighters and most certainly not top ten!

Tiozzo waited until DM was past it, hell they both were past it, though Tiozzo had a tougher list of opponents! Hell Tiozzo turned pro in 1988, DM in 1991...and Tiozzo waited?

[Autobarn]

As I said elsewhere, DM was a good, solid pro, but was nothing special. He feasted on very, very weak opposition throughout his career and never come out of Germany to fight, unless it was an opponent who was little, to no risk.

As far as the DM-Jones bout not happening, it was both their faults...no one more than the other, though Jones said he would take the fight in England, but DM would not come out of Germany for the bout, so you can decide who really wanted it more!

As far as the opponents that DM should have faced, well he could have probably beaten most, but had he fought nothing but top ten contenders he would have endured a loss a lot earlier than he did! Most of the opponents that he defended against were not even B level fighters and most certainly not top ten!
Tiozzo waited until DM was past it, hell they both were past it, though Tiozzo had a tougher list of opponents! Hell Tiozzo turned pro in 1988, DM in 1991...and Tiozzo waited?

Sure, but any long reigning champ in history found a way to extend his reign. Look at Larry Holmes' lucky decisions vs Williams and Witherspoon, and some easy foes like Scott Frank etc.

I'm not comparing DM to Holmes quality wise, and obviously DM took softies in his prime. But I give him props for beating Griffin and Thadzi (both of whom beat James Toney), Hill (very good boxer), Barber (dangerous Kronk fighter & WBO titlist), Rocchigiani (who some felt was robbed vs Eubank, and was a former s/middle champ).

Hell, Piper and Prince were credible European level boxers.

[Axe]

As I said elsewhere, DM was a good, solid pro, but was nothing special. He feasted on very, very weak opposition throughout his career and never come out of Germany to fight, unless it was an opponent who was little, to no risk.

As far as the DM-Jones bout not happening, it was both their faults...no one more than the other, though Jones said he would take the fight in England, but DM would not come out of Germany for the bout, so you can decide who really wanted it more!

As far as the opponents that DM should have faced, well he could have probably beaten most, but had he fought nothing but top ten contenders he would have endured a loss a lot earlier than he did! Most of the opponents that he defended against were not even B level fighters and most certainly not top ten!

Tiozzo waited until DM was past it, hell they both were past it, though Tiozzo had a tougher list of opponents! Hell Tiozzo turned pro in 1988, DM in 1991...and Tiozzo waited?

Hmm I heard Dm say he would figth on neutral grounds...I also saw Kohl offer Jones 5 mil for the fight but Jones wanted 12. Jones never offered Dm anywhere near that amount.

[pundit]

As I said elsewhere, DM was a good, solid pro, but was nothing special. He feasted on very, very weak opposition throughout his career and never come out of Germany to fight, unless it was an opponent who was little, to no risk.

This is bullocks. DM fought and beat Hill, Griffin, Rochigiani - hence the best light-heavyweights of his era except RJJ. As so many others, he stayed around for too long though - until he got beaten by second-rate Julio Gonazles. He even had trouble with journeyman Richie Hall. Sad for an evergreat.

As for who was better, RJJ or DM, there is no doubt in my mind that on a normal night RJJ would have outpointed DM by a large margin - even though DM would always have had a puncher's chance. But DM remains the second best light-heavyweight of a great era.

Why didn't RJJ-DM come about? Don't forget that DM's manager was Klaus-Peter Kohl, the allegedly of German boxing.

[Autobarn]

Who knows how much confidence Jones would perform with against a very strong guy who could pick his shots well. DM's lack of speed would work against him, but Jones has a fragility also. I mean how many big, strong, skilled light heavies did Jones ever risk his neck against? Not many.

I would've loved to see how DM's style fared against Tarver and Johnson (who admittdly bloomed well after DM did).

anyone see DM's fight with Leeonzer Barber? His first title win. That was one hell of a good fight.

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

As I said elsewhere, DM was a good, solid pro, but was nothing special. He feasted on very, very weak opposition throughout his career and never come out of Germany to fight, unless it was an opponent who was little, to no risk.

As far as the DM-Jones bout not happening, it was both their faults...no one more than the other, though Jones said he would take the fight in England, but DM would not come out of Germany for the bout, so you can decide who really wanted it more!

As far as the opponents that DM should have faced, well he could have probably beaten most, but had he fought nothing but top ten contenders he would have endured a loss a lot earlier than he did! Most of the opponents that he defended against were not even B level fighters and most certainly not top ten!
Tiozzo waited until DM was past it, hell they both were past it, though Tiozzo had a tougher list of opponents! Hell Tiozzo turned pro in 1988, DM in 1991...and Tiozzo waited?

Sure, but any long reigning champ in history found a way to extend his reign. Look at Larry Holmes' lucky decisions vs Williams and Witherspoon, and some easy foes like Scott Frank etc.

I'm not comparing DM to Holmes quality wise, and obviously DM took softies in his prime. But I give him props for beating Griffin and Thadzi (both of whom beat James Toney), Hill (very good boxer), Barber (dangerous Kronk fighter & WBO titlist), Rocchigiani (who some felt was robbed vs Eubank, and was a former s/middle champ).

Hell, Piper and Prince were credible European level boxers.

Erm didn't Eubank shut out Rochigiani in Germany - I've never ever heard it been a slightly controversal decision are we making it up as we go along?

DM was good but not near great imo. I think Jones Jr would have beat him easily. I also think Toney would of completely taken DM apart based on styles - if he can do it to Jirov he can do it better to DM

[MightyWarrior]

Tarver was made for DM, DM wouldve either beat him by a very wide margin or stopped him late. Its not even close. Prime DM gives any light heavyweight in history all sorts of nightmares

Think you're overstating it there a bit. He was a decent champ in his day, but you can hardly start ranking him up with the greats. Stylists like Foster and Spinks would've out jabbed him and sent over the type of right hand bombs DM never had to deal with in his regin at the top.

Seem to recall he was dropped and in big trouble against some fairly ordinary guy in an early title fight. Don't think he could've lived with the real light heavy greats - wouldv'e had some great wars with the likes of Qawi, Gallindez and Saad - though don't think he'd have beat em.

[Axe]

Tarver was made for DM, DM wouldve either beat him by a very wide margin or stopped him late. Its not even close. Prime DM gives any light heavyweight in history all sorts of nightmares

Think you're overstating it there a bit. He was a decent champ in his day, but you can hardly start ranking him up with the greats. Stylists like Foster and Spinks would've out jabbed him and sent over the type of right hand bombs DM never had to deal with in his regin at the top.

Seem to recall he was dropped and in big trouble against some fairly ordinary guy in an early title fight. Don't think he could've lived with the real light heavy greats - wouldv'e had some great wars with the likes of Qawi, Gallindez and Saad - though don't think he'd have beat em.

Well agree to disagree mate. DM wouldve beat many men that are rated all time at 175 (many people rank him up there as well, we had a poll on ESB on the topic).

visciousmaussa-I have that fight on tape. GREAT war, Barber was an excellent fighter and had jsut come into his own, DM was thrown into the wolves by Universum and he came out with the belt.

[Autobarn]

Tarver was made for DM, DM wouldve either beat him by a very wide margin or stopped him late. Its not even close. Prime DM gives any light heavyweight in history all sorts of nightmares

Think you're overstating it there a bit. He was a decent champ in his day, but you can hardly start ranking him up with the greats. Stylists like Foster and Spinks would've out jabbed him and sent over the type of right hand bombs DM never had to deal with in his regin at the top.

Seem to recall he was dropped and in big trouble against some fairly ordinary guy in an early title fight. Don't think he could've lived with the real light heavy greats - wouldv'e had some great wars with the likes of Qawi, Gallindez and Saad - though don't think he'd have beat em.

Well agree to disagree mate. DM wouldve beat many men that are rated all time at 175 (many people rank him up there as well, we had a poll on ESB on the topic).

visciousmaussa-I have that fight on tape. GREAT war, Barber was an excellent fighter and had jsut come into his own, DM was thrown into the wolves by Universum and he came out with the belt.

Yeah it's one of my faves. I've got a tape of it with 3 or 4 rounds missing. But it was a classy fight with some brutal exchanges. Every shot was well picked and DM fired some awesome double left jabs. Barber was a proven puncher who showed some very good technique.

Phenomenal Nutrician: As for EUBANK v Roccigiani, no I'm not making it up. Donald McRae (DARK TRADE: LOST IN BOXING) said Rocky clearly won. I watched it and it could've gone either way. Lots of flash from Eubank and some very well picked pressure by Rocky. Plenty of posing from both sides. Rocky def left it a bit late to come on, but you can make a case for him. Eubank, when he was WBO champ, couldn't lose a decision. He got some real lucky ones until he ran into Collins.

[Axe]

Think you're overstating it there a bit. He was a decent champ in his day, but you can hardly start ranking him up with the greats. Stylists like Foster and Spinks would've out jabbed him and sent over the type of right hand bombs DM never had to deal with in his regin at the top.

Seem to recall he was dropped and in big trouble against some fairly ordinary guy in an early title fight. Don't think he could've lived with the real light heavy greats - wouldv'e had some great wars with the likes of Qawi, Gallindez and Saad - though don't think he'd have beat em.

Well agree to disagree mate. DM wouldve beat many men that are rated all time at 175 (many people rank him up there as well, we had a poll on ESB on the topic).

visciousmaussa-I have that fight on tape. GREAT war, Barber was an excellent fighter and had jsut come into his own, DM was thrown into the wolves by Universum and he came out with the belt.

Yeah it's one of my faves. I've got a tape of it with 3 or 4 rounds missing. But it was a classy fight with some brutal exchanges. Every shot was well picked and DM fired some awesome double left jabs. Barber was a proven puncher who showed some very good technique.

Phenomenal Nutrician: As for EUBANK v Roccigiani, no I'm not making it up. Donald McRae (DARK TRADE: LOST IN BOXING) said Rocky clearly won. I watched it and it could've gone either way. Lots of flash from Eubank and some very well picked pressure by Rocky. Plenty of posing from both sides. Rocky def left it a bit late to come on, but you can make a case for him. Eubank, when he was WBO champ, couldn't lose a decision. He got some real lucky ones until he ran into Collins.

I remember in the twelfth, Barber, although in great condition, couldnt match Dariusz's pace and pressure, and looked in trouble, but the lights in the stadium went out, giving him twenty or so seconds to recuperate before the lights came back on. Then they both went all out just before the final bell...again, great close fight that DM rightly won.

[Yaras72]

First of all, DM wasn't initially Universum's and Kohl's pretty boy. For most of his career German public considered him a second-class German (cf. the Rocchigiani fights). Situation worsened when he started to fight in Polish colors again (starting with the DeGrandis match). For my money DM was no worse than RJJ, and he CERTAINLY did not lose the fight with Gonzalez

His loss opened the way for Kohl to promote Zsolt Erdei. And everybody in Poland hopes that Tomasz Adamek will soon square that particular account away

[Autobarn]

Well agree to disagree mate. DM wouldve beat many men that are rated all time at 175 (many people rank him up there as well, we had a poll on ESB on the topic).

visciousmaussa-I have that fight on tape. GREAT war, Barber was an excellent fighter and had jsut come into his own, DM was thrown into the wolves by Universum and he came out with the belt.

Yeah it's one of my faves. I've got a tape of it with 3 or 4 rounds missing. But it was a classy fight with some brutal exchanges. Every shot was well picked and DM fired some awesome double left jabs. Barber was a proven puncher who showed some very good technique.

Phenomenal Nutrician: As for EUBANK v Roccigiani, no I'm not making it up. Donald McRae (DARK TRADE: LOST IN BOXING) said Rocky clearly won. I watched it and it could've gone either way. Lots of flash from Eubank and some very well picked pressure by Rocky. Plenty of posing from both sides. Rocky def left it a bit late to come on, but you can make a case for him. Eubank, when he was WBO champ, couldn't lose a decision. He got some real lucky ones until he ran into Collins.

I remember in the twelfth, Barber, although in great condition, couldnt match Dariusz's pace and pressure, and looked in trouble, but the lights in the stadium went out, giving him twenty or so seconds to recuperate before the lights came back on. Then they both went all out just before the final bell...again, great close fight that DM rightly won.

Yeah I recall that, it was mad wasn't it! Puts a new spin on Lights Out. Imagine if he was fighting Toney lol (that fight could've happened, btw, if Toney would've got past Drake Thadzi...)

Never seen the Gonzalez fight. Some people say that Gonzalez beat him convincingly...

[shot]

First of all, DM wasn't initially Universum's and Kohl's pretty boy. For most of his career German public considered him a second-class German (cf. the Rocchigiani fights). Situation worsened when he started to fight in Polish colors again (starting with the DeGrandis match). For my money DM was no worse than RJJ, and he CERTAINLY did not lose the fight with Gonzalez

His loss opened the way for Kohl to promote Zsolt Erdei. And everybody in Poland hopes that Tomasz Adamek will soon square that particular account away

I've to say he lost against Gonzalez. He fought a rather lack-lustre fight against Gonzalez.

Why he was second class in Germany i don't understand since in his prime he was the best boxer any of the german promoters had IMO.

[Coconut]

First of all, DM wasn't initially Universum's and Kohl's pretty boy. For most of his career German public considered him a second-class German (cf. the Rocchigiani fights). Situation worsened when he started to fight in Polish colors again (starting with the DeGrandis match). For my money DM was no worse than RJJ, and he CERTAINLY did not lose the fight with Gonzalez

His loss opened the way for Kohl to promote Zsolt Erdei. And everybody in Poland hopes that Tomasz Adamek will soon square that particular account away

I've to say he lost against Gonzalez. He fought a rather lack-lustre fight against Gonzalez.

Why he was second class in Germany i don't understand since in his prime he was the best boxer any of the german promoters had IMO.

I spent some time working in Germnay a couple of years back. Guys who knew nothing about boxing would still wet their pants when you spoke about Sven Ottke. I was no Ottke fan so would ask about DM, and they would nod and say, "Ah, the Pole..."

DM was, I think, something of a ground-breaker in Germany for non-German-born but German-adopted boxers.

[barry]

Tomasz Adamek seems to be a very, very good light heavyweight. I haven't seen a lot of him, but what I have seen I really like!

[MightyWarrior]

Dariusz seems to be part of the Samil Sam camp these days, or a friend at least. For the Oleg M fight he was in Sam's gym giving him advice, and was alongside him for the ring walk. Though he sat ringside for the fight.

[pundit]

Dariusz was in a popularity contest with Rocky that he couldn't win - Rocky had the bigger mouth and the quicker brain (before their refight Rocky said: "there are stupid Germans and smart Poles, but you are a stupid Pole. I can't discuss with you").

I don't think it had much to do with Dariusz "Polishness" though - Poles are generally popular in Germany, and DM himself was quite popular in his adopted hometown of Hamburg. Rocky was to DM what Boris Becker was to Michael Stich - simply the much more interesting popualr guy, who would steal the limelight, even though in pure sports terms DM achieve much more.

P

PS: Rocky lost a very disputed decision to Eubank - in Berlin, Rocky's hometown.

[Axe]

Dariusz was in a popularity contest with Rocky that he couldn't win - Rocky had the bigger mouth and the quicker brain (before their refight Rocky said: "there are stupid Germans and smart Poles, but you are a stupid Pole. I can't discuss with you").

I don't think it had much to do with Dariusz "Polishness" though - Poles are generally popular in Germany, and DM himself was quite popular in his adopted hometown of Hamburg. Rocky was to DM what Boris Becker was to Michael Stich - simply the much more interesting popualr guy, who would steal the limelight, even though in pure sports terms DM achieve much more.

P

PS: Rocky lost a very disputed decision to Eubank - in Berlin, Rocky's hometown.

Yea the DM Rocky rivalry was something else.

[BubiScholz]

Dariusz was in a popularity contest with Rocky that he couldn't win - Rocky had the bigger mouth and the quicker brain (before their refight Rocky said: "there are stupid Germans and smart Poles, but you are a stupid Pole. I can't discuss with you").

I don't think it had much to do with Dariusz "Polishness" though - Poles are generally popular in Germany, and DM himself was quite popular in his adopted hometown of Hamburg. Rocky was to DM what Boris Becker was to Michael Stich - simply the much more interesting popualr guy, who would steal the limelight, even though in pure sports terms DM achieve much more.

P

PS: Rocky lost a very disputed decision to Eubank - in Berlin, Rocky's hometown.

BTW Poles are NOT very popular in Germany..........A lot of people hate them because among them is a high criminal quote. SO there are a lot of polish jokes existing....

An example:

Build a sentence with 3 lies: An HONEST Pole drives to WORK in HIS OWN CAR.........

[MightyWarrior]

A German joke is no laughing matter...

[pundit]

BTW Poles are NOT very popular in Germany..........A lot of people hate them because among them is a high criminal quote. SO there are a lot of polish jokes existing....

An example:

Build a sentence with 3 lies: An HONEST Pole drives to WORK in HIS OWN CAR.........

Noch ist Polen nicht verloren...
P