How much boxing talent is required to be a journeyman?

[johnswan1]

Would the average person have the "ability" to become a professional boxer or journeyman, or does it require above average boxing ability?

I'm not doubting how tough it is being a journeyman, in terms of keeping in shape, probably holding down another job, regular fights and often on short notice, fighting against guys of a superior ability, trying to test a prospect but without getting hurt or injured.

I think with most sports it's possible if you are enthusiastic enough to be able to practice and improve to a point where you can reasonably hold your own - for example anybody can play five a side, golf, tennis etc. and reach a certain level where your abilities would be far better than somebody not in practice. Would boxing be the similar or would it be completely different?

Would a tough guy on the street without boxing training (but with considerable athletic ability) typically get schooled by a journeyman most of the time in a stand up fight?

How much training and practice would a person with average all round sporting abilities require in order to hold their own as a journeyman?

And is being a journeyman mostly down to a lack of ability, a lack of dedication or mostly a lack of opportunity?

And finally, given the risks associated with boxing and the fact that a lot less people would be willing to try their luck at it when compared to other sports where you don't get punched in the face, does that make it one of the easiest sports for the average person of average sporting ability to become a professional in if the person was determined to have a professional career in a competitive sport (as opposed to being a trainer etc)?

[mickey1975]

You have to be a very, very skilled boxer to be a journeyman. Your average man couldn't do two rounds with a 16year old five fight novice in the local gym. If it was that easy everyone would be doing it, picking up a grand for fifteen minutes work. The truth is they would get hurt and licensed revoked quickly.

[DMA1987]

A lot of the time the only thing that sets the journeymen apart from the challengers is mindset.

[80/20]

A lot of the time the only thing that sets the journeymen apart from the challengers is mindset.

I would not agree with this although a journey man needs a certain mindset alot of the time its more about ability to sell tickets and therefore get the right fights at the right time to develop.

[damianhucker1]

Some lads ive known to have turned pro lately are not good enough in my eyes but are still beating the journeymen. and ive also had some very experienced ex pro journeymen on my shows who have struggled or been stopped by average joes.

at one time id have said they had to be skilled to a certain extent to be a journeyman, and some are descent lads who turned over with the intention on being a journeyman from the start but of late i see myself questioning wether the lack of ability is more common than i realised.

when theres lads who ive had 4 or 5 times on my events and have never won on those shows and i then see them making their pro debut, i often wonder what on earths going on.

With all that in mind i know ive got at least 6-8 lads on my shows who are better than those and therefore capable of becoming pro's not just as journeymen, but with a lock of pro promotion in Nottingham its frustrating for them, i made a deal to provide lads to a promoter who was trying to establish himself here only for him to then quit promoting for various reasons.

If i had the funding to start putting pro shows on and get these lads turning over and also offer a bit of action for those here already pro then i would do so straight away but unfortunately finances dont allow for this at current.

[Emmseegee]

I would not agree with this although a journey man needs a certain mindset alot of the time its more about ability to sell tickets and therefore get the right fights at the right time to develop.

I agree with this, ticket sales can make or break a fighter.

Journeymen need to keep fit all year round and because of the regularity of their bouts they tend to fight at or above their natural weight. It takes a lot of balls and skills to make a living as a journeyman and there is no doubt that some of them could compete at a decent level if they had the proper backing but sadly, the way boxing works is that these men make more money from losing every week than others make from winning a few times a year!

[lefty]

Being a journeyman must be the most psychologically demanding role in boxing because every time you go into the ring the guy is supposed to be better than you! Hence you must be thinking I know im gonna get a pasting! Screw that for a laugh.

[thepocketrocket]

I remember Billy Smith (RIP) fighting Mark Adams. He had apparently won 12 of 13 white collar fights, and his first pro fight.

Billy, who hadn't won for years, and never won again made him look an idiot.

A journeyman will go into survival mode if the other guy is good, but if he isn't up to it, then the skills will be far superior

Remember, if a journeyman is too dangerous, he won't get used

[bigped]

There is different levels of journey man aswell, some of these foriegn imports are useless and then you have guys like Youssef Al Hamidi / ryan clark ect who can go distance with likes of ricky burns ect.. there also guys who were prospects who turn into jounrey man mode

[Manchester Massive]

I remember Billy Smith (RIP) fighting Mark Adams. He had apparently won 12 of 13 white collar fights, and his first pro fight.

Billy, who hadn't won for years, and never won again made him look an idiot.

A journeyman will go into survival mode if the other guy is good, but if he isn't up to it, then the skills will be far superior

Remember, if a journeyman is too dangerous, he won't get used

Yep a lad I know won 22 out of 29 on the semi pro / white collar scene, he's got 10 losses and a draw as a pro although not been stopped and very much a journeyman, the average man in the street wouldn't last long with him in a boxing ring though as even when fighting at welterweight I saw him schooling novice heavyweights when doing white collar sparring

[lefty]

I remember Billy Smith (RIP) fighting Mark Adams. He had apparently won 12 of 13 white collar fights, and his first pro fight.

Billy, who hadn't won for years, and never won again made him look an idiot.

A journeyman will go into survival mode if the other guy is good, but if he isn't up to it, then the skills will be far superior

Remember, if a journeyman is too dangerous, he won't get used

Yep a lad I know won 22 out of 29 on the semi pro / white collar scene, he's got 10 losses and a draw as a pro although not been stopped and very much a journeyman, the average man in the street wouldn't last long with him in a boxing ring though as even when fighting at welterweight I saw him schooling novice heavyweights when doing white collar sparring

I dont mean to be mean but they must be pretty terrible. The heavyweights I mean.

[lefty]

I remember Billy Smith (RIP) fighting Mark Adams. He had apparently won 12 of 13 white collar fights, and his first pro fight.

Billy, who hadn't won for years, and never won again made him look an idiot.

A journeyman will go into survival mode if the other guy is good, but if he isn't up to it, then the skills will be far superior

Remember, if a journeyman is too dangerous, he won't get used

Yep a lad I know won 22 out of 29 on the semi pro / white collar scene, he's got 10 losses and a draw as a pro although not been stopped and very much a journeyman, the average man in the street wouldn't last long with him in a boxing ring though as even when fighting at welterweight I saw him schooling novice heavyweights when doing white collar sparring

I dont mean to be mean but they must be pretty terrible. The heavyweights I mean.

Paul Haines? Journeymen know there place just as Paul does he puts up a decent scrap but I'd say even if he thinks he wants to win sub consciously he doesn't try as hard as he would have in the white collar game. Tough lad though Paul. But next time you speak to him tell him I said thanks to him or whoever it was with him for thieving the gloves from the charity show he fought at up north. That was a nice touch by them [/quote]

No idea mate. I was just saying if Novice heavyweights are getting schooled by a welterweight with 10 losses and a draw to his name then they must be pretty bad.

[Gordon KOs]

Ask Sid Razak or better yet Peter Buckley

[Manchester Massive]

I remember Billy Smith (RIP) fighting Mark Adams. He had apparently won 12 of 13 white collar fights, and his first pro fight.

Billy, who hadn't won for years, and never won again made him look an idiot.

A journeyman will go into survival mode if the other guy is good, but if he isn't up to it, then the skills will be far superior

Remember, if a journeyman is too dangerous, he won't get used

Yep a lad I know won 22 out of 29 on the semi pro / white collar scene, he's got 10 losses and a draw as a pro although not been stopped and very much a journeyman, the average man in the street wouldn't last long with him in a boxing ring though as even when fighting at welterweight I saw him schooling novice heavyweights when doing white collar sparring

I dont mean to be mean but they must be pretty terrible. The heavyweights I mean.

They were 2 or 3 fight novices and yes it was Paul I was referring to - I know him from a gym we used to train at, sorry to hear about your gloves Billy

[lefty]

I remember Billy Smith (RIP) fighting Mark Adams. He had apparently won 12 of 13 white collar fights, and his first pro fight.

Billy, who hadn't won for years, and never won again made him look an idiot.

A journeyman will go into survival mode if the other guy is good, but if he isn't up to it, then the skills will be far superior

Remember, if a journeyman is too dangerous, he won't get used

Yep a lad I know won 22 out of 29 on the semi pro / white collar scene, he's got 10 losses and a draw as a pro although not been stopped and very much a journeyman, the average man in the street wouldn't last long with him in a boxing ring though as even when fighting at welterweight I saw him schooling novice heavyweights when doing white collar sparring

I dont mean to be mean but they must be pretty terrible. The heavyweights I mean.

They were 2 or 3 fight novices and yes it was Paul I was referring to - I know him from a gym we used to train at, sorry to hear about your gloves Billy[/quote]

How many amateur fights did Bob Ajisafe have? Cant of been that many could it?

[lefty]

I remember Billy Smith (RIP) fighting Mark Adams. He had apparently won 12 of 13 white collar fights, and his first pro fight.

Billy, who hadn't won for years, and never won again made him look an idiot.

A journeyman will go into survival mode if the other guy is good, but if he isn't up to it, then the skills will be far superior

Remember, if a journeyman is too dangerous, he won't get used

Yep a lad I know won 22 out of 29 on the semi pro / white collar scene, he's got 10 losses and a draw as a pro although not been stopped and very much a journeyman, the average man in the street wouldn't last long with him in a boxing ring though as even when fighting at welterweight I saw him schooling novice heavyweights when doing white collar sparring

I dont mean to be mean but they must be pretty terrible. The heavyweights I mean.

They were 2 or 3 fight novices and yes it was Paul I was referring to - I know him from a gym we used to train at, sorry to hear about your gloves Billy[/quote]

How many amateur fights did Bob Ajisafe have? Cant of been that many could it?

[lefty]

I remember Billy Smith (RIP) fighting Mark Adams. He had apparently won 12 of 13 white collar fights, and his first pro fight.

Billy, who hadn't won for years, and never won again made him look an idiot.

A journeyman will go into survival mode if the other guy is good, but if he isn't up to it, then the skills will be far superior

Remember, if a journeyman is too dangerous, he won't get used

Yep a lad I know won 22 out of 29 on the semi pro / white collar scene, he's got 10 losses and a draw as a pro although not been stopped and very much a journeyman, the average man in the street wouldn't last long with him in a boxing ring though as even when fighting at welterweight I saw him schooling novice heavyweights when doing white collar sparring

I dont mean to be mean but they must be pretty terrible. The heavyweights I mean.

They were 2 or 3 fight novices and yes it was Paul I was referring to - I know him from a gym we used to train at, sorry to hear about your gloves Billy[/quote]

How many amateur fights did Bob Ajisafe have? Cant of been that many could it?

[rob h]

I remember Youseff Al Hammidi giving Micheal Gomez a tough nights work in Wigan. He had Gomez cut over both eyes and all over the place before Gomez got his composure back. This was the comeback before the Johanssen and Khan fights.

[mickey1975]

I remember Youseff Al Hammidi giving Micheal Gomez a tough nights work in Wigan. He had Gomez cut over both eyes and all over the place before Gomez got his composure back. This was the comeback before the Johanssen and Khan fights.

People thought he beat John Murray.

[ArtOfWar]

What you have to remember is even a journeyman will spend a lot of time honing his skills. Your average person walking into a gym will simply be out of their depth, because they have had enough training to cope with whats coming at them.

If the question is how athletically/naturally gifted is your average journeyman? (or even decent pro for that matter) then it's a bit of a different argument. From my experience a lot of people who take up boxing aren't really athletically gifted. It's not really a sport that attracts lot's of people. Most top athletes will try something else before boxing.

[Counter-puncher]

FWIW Peter Buckley is one of the best defensive fighters I have ever seen in the flesh. even given that defence was his main focus, he couldn't have been that good without talent

[Mimmy]

Also FWIW heres my opinion.

I think the difference in being a journeyman and a good fighter is the interest in the sport along with your style of boxing and the ability to survive without getting hurt. Most journeyman can give a decent novice a good workout to a points loss but can take what the novice can give without getting hurt. In some cases the journeyman could proberly beat the novice but he knows his job and can earn a decent living doing his trade, because he knows what he is there to do. A guy with a record of 5 wins 30 defeats for example is not going to relight the boxing fire and suddenly put together a streak of 50 wins and win titles. I suppose all pro's enter the game hoping for their big chance, I would imagine they all believe to begin with they could at least win a British title.

A classic example of a journeyman that I can think of is Michael Murray

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_ ... &cat=boxer

At the start of his career when he was interested in the fight game in terms of wanting to win he racked up a few wins and some loses but wasn't a bad fighter. He met Herbie Hide for the British heavyweight title and got beat, after this he must have thought that he was never going to be good enough but could take a punch and was still interested in the game to make money at a different level. The remainder of his career were mostly losses but usually on points. However, the quality of opponent improved a great deal. He would have known he was there to lose but would have made a few quid giving up and comers a work out. Also a journeyman would know when to quit, and this is a very important skill. He would never want to be knocked out as he would not be able to fight again at short notice of a length of time so he would be very away of when to go on one knee and take a count and get up at 10 or suddenly receive an injury that would force him to quit.

A good journeyman would be able to take a punch and be very good at defence but would not be able to give a punch that would knockout his opponent. Sure there have been plenty of guys who accidentally ruined the script, but thats boxing

[Parson Cross]

Take a look at Howard Clarke's resume.
Tells you all you need to know.
A list of opponents to be proud of - and many points losses.
Not many fighters like Howard box for a world title in Vegas.
God bless him great kid haven't heard much recently about him.
If anyone knows how he's doing can they post please.