Prime Larry Holmes vs. a prime Joe Frazier. ------

[NYDominican]

A prime Larry Holmes against a prime Joe Frazier. ------


What advantages (If any) would Larry Holmes have over Joe Frazier?


What advantages (If any) would Joe have over Larry Holmes?


What do you see happening in this fight?


How do you see this fight panning out?


Who would win?


Why?

[elmersalsa]

If is the great fighting machine from the FOTC down, Smoking Joe drops the Easton Assassin in round 11.

[evrenb]

Frazier...completely the wrong style for Larry...Joe ate him up and bust his ribs in the gym..he would do it for real too...joe late ko

[SenorPipino]

Holmes would jab Joe silly, mix in a little movement, and if need be, tie up Frazier when he made it inside.

Holmes had fast hands, and like Ali, he would batter Frazier's head with quick rights and that long thudding jab.

If it's a 12-rounder, Holmes gets the unanimous decision. In a 15-rounder, Joe's bruised, swollen face would force the ref to stop it late in the 13th.

[SenorPipino]

While I suppose agreeing with Il Duce is regarded as a bad thing by the legions here, I must say that I agree with Il Duce.

[energie]

JOE FRAZIER FROM MARCH 71 BEATS ANY VERSION OF LARRY HOLMES VIA 15 RD DEC WIT EASE.....if larry had problems wit weaver in 79...and had major probs with an old norton in 1978.......and had a copule of tough rds with leon spinks ...then joe frazier of 1971 really beats a beat down on larry holmes for 15 rds...IN HIS PRIME JOE FRAZIER WAS FOR REAL AND I LUV LARRY HOLMES

[Giancarlo]

Holmes on points over 15 ............. as long as he can stick to his game plan.

If Frazier can get past the jab it is Joe's fight.

[Robinson]

I think Holmes gets the decision.

It is close and hard and when Larry is flat footed and goes
deep into those trenches with Frazier he loses rounds.

Over all it is just a Larry win, but Boy..would this not be
cool to watch.

[yancey]

Larry Holmes does not see the 15th round against prime Frazier.

By about the 7th round, Joe starts consistently getting past the jab, attaches himself to Larry's body, and breaks Holmes down.

I reckon it goes 13.

It would be cool to watch the best body puncher in heavyweight history slowly but surely get his man.

[BoxBuzz]

Best version of each.

Larry SHOULD win it. On paper...he seems the smart bet....

But it's my guess that Joe WOULD win it.

IF....we are talking a combination of Joe at his very best, and his most motivated, Larry would likely not win the war of wills. This jumps the synapse where it's not about the skill, it's about the will.

[SenorPipino]

Holmes on points over 15 ............. as long as he can stick to his game plan.

If Frazier can get past the jab it is Joe's fight.

That's a mighty big "if."
It was one of the better jabs in heavyweight history.
What did Holmes call it? "Letting the Dogs Out."
Woof Woof on Frazier's face all night long.

[dempseyfire]

Holmes on points over 15 ............. as long as he can stick to his game plan.

If Frazier can get past the jab it is Joe's fight.

That's a mighty big "if."
It was one of the better jabs in heavyweight history.
What did Holmes call it? "Letting the Dogs Out."
Woof Woof on Frazier's face all night long.

Fighters far inferior to Frazier got past Larry's jab to deck or seriously hurt him.

[yancey]

Holmes on points over 15 ............. as long as he can stick to his game plan.

If Frazier can get past the jab it is Joe's fight.

That's a mighty big "if."
It was one of the better jabs in heavyweight history.
What did Holmes call it? "Letting the Dogs Out."
Woof Woof on Frazier's face all night long.

By about the 8th round, Larry will be less concerned with "Letting the Dogs Out" and much more concerned about "Keeping the Liver In".

[BoxBuzz]

Yep, I'm thinkin' he'd be more effective on Larry's body than he ever was on Ali's.....and he just about wasted Ali's guts. And that is quite the achievement as Ali was pretty well armored.....Larry...not so much.

[SamWise72]

I rate Holmes higher, but I see Frazier winning this. If he could reliably get to the inside of the much more mobile Ali, he's going to get to Larry too.

[drunkenpiper36]

Its really anybody's fight.

Some reasons why I may lean towards Holmes

1. While Frazier did very well against Muhammad Ali, which is partially why so many favor him against Holmes, Ali's weakness was the left hook, where as Holmes' was the right hand. In fact, the left hook wasn't a particularly useful weapon against Holmes and happened to be Frazier's chief asset.

2. Neither Holmes nor any of the boxer types whom Frazier fought hit very hard, but I do think Larry had a tad more snap to his shots than did Ali, Ellis, etc.. Of course, the kind of power Holmes had was nothing like Foreman's, but over many rounds and lots of shots, that extra snap could take its toll.

3. Holmes' stamina and chin were both very well tested as he went the 15 round distance on a few occasions and survived the artilary of Earnie Shavers, Mike Weaver, Tim Witherspoon, Gerry Cooney and several others. Joe would land a fair number of hard shots, but it would take a lot to finish a prime Holmes.

4. While Joe faced a number of men who possessed very good jabs, Larry's was quite possibly better than anyone in that grouping.

5. To his credit, Joe Frazier had incredible upper body movement that was off the charts for a heavyweight. But sometimes this also worked against him when facing a man with a good right uppercut. Holmes KO'd and dropped a few men with one such uppercut, and I'm afraid that Joe's bobbing and weaving while coming forward would play right into Larry's hands to set up that punch.

[BoxBuzz]

I like your analysis.....even if I disagree. And the reason I do, is that you just named a lot of headhunters on your list. Joe balanced his attack and could be a body snatcher....and assuming he's able to get past the jab...formidable as Larry's was....I think he simply beats Larry's body in a way that Larry never encountered before...there is his edge.

But yes, this is a close one to call, and either side has a pretty good argument. Unless and until I decide that my argument is actually not an opinion, but a verifiable fact.


Jus' so's ya know:

I'm am currently in negotiations with Il Duce, for rights on licensing out his "Opinion to Fact Conversion System" that he has invented. Once we settle on financial terms, I will return and convert this to an indelible and undeniable fact. And you will be left will little more than your flimsy opinion.

I'm serving everyone notice on this, so no one will be surprised or disappointed when this all shakes out my way.

[yancey]

Larry Holmes

* Too much movement
* Too much speed
* Too many left jabs
* Too many straight right-hands

Larry may even drop 'Smokin Joe' early with a straight right-hand.

A systematic paint-job after Round 10. where Smokin Joe gets his left eye closed, and the bout is stopped by a TKO late.

Who had greater movement and speed, Ali or Holmes?

How did prime Joe do with Ali's movement and speed?

Was Joe accomplished at cutting off the ring and forcing his man to fight?

In Larry's other 15 rounders, did he ever face a fellow as busy and relentless as Frazier?

Would he be able to steal moments against Joe? Would he get the room he needs as the fight wears on?

The two other factors you list diminish as Joe stays tight to Larry and works over that ample body.

The big hooks to the noggin come late and Frazier gets pulled off of Larry late in the 13th.

[yancey]

Mr. Yancey

You can't compare Larry Holmes to Muhammad Ali.

First off, Larry was better.

Second, Larry wouldn't allow himself to be 'cornered and trapped', and wouldn't lay back on
the ropes and let 'Smokin Joe' whack him like Muhammad Ali allowed Joe.

Most important, Larry's left-jab pulverized his opponents, and came at you with 'force'
like a Diesel Engine Piston.

'Smokin Joe' would be relentless from Rounds 5 thru 9 - but as he slowed down a step in Round 10,
he would not be 'bobbing-and-weaving' as much, and would be more upright.

This would set up Larry to deliver the hard left-jabs and straight right-hand 'Ram-Rods' down the
Philadelphia Turnpike.

Larry's rapid left-jabs and hard right-hand punches late in Round 10, will swell Smokin Joe's left eye.

Joe will deliver an all-out effort early in Round 11, but by the end of the Round, Joe's left eye will be
completely closed from absorbing several hard left-jabs from Larry. Joe will have vision problems,
and will not be able to see out of the eye.

The Ringside Doctor will examine Joe at the end of Round 11, and allows him 'one more round'.

Round 12, Joe will try, but cannot see as he swings but misses badly. Larry attacks with an assortment
of solid left hands on the eye during the first {1:30}.

Just past the mid-way point in the Round, Larry will catch Joe coming in with a blistering right-hand to the
left eye and Joe will move backwards unable to see. Larry moves in quickly and fires away with several whipping
right-hands to the left side of Joe's head that he cannot see. The Ringside Commission Doctor calls for the Referee
to halt the bout at {1:57} of Round 12.

Larry Holmes wins by a TKO in 12.

Scorecard
Round 1........ 10-9.....{Larry}
Round 2........ 10-9.....{Larry}
Round 3........ 10-9.....{Larry}
Round 4........ 10-9.....{Larry}
Round 5........ 10-9......{Joe}
Round 6........ 10-9......{Joe}
Round 7........ 10-10....'Even'
Round 8........ 10-9......{Joe}
Round 9........ 10-9......{Joe}
Round 10...... 10-9.....{Larry}
Round 11...... 10-9.....{Larry}

And Larry does all this with his liver hanging out of his body from the 11th round on!

Amazing!

;;-)

[yancey]

Mr. Yancey,

OUCH !!!

A hard fight for me to 'Pick-A-Winner', as I admire both guys.

A} > Larry had the better defense, and was pretty damn good at defending against the left hook.
B} > Nobody ever worked over Larry's body.
C} > Larry's left jab would have been in high-gear all night long.
D} > Joe was very quick in 1968/1969, so he would have been on top of Larry, but,,,,,,

It would be a hell of a fight, no doubt.

[BoxBuzz]

Nobody ever worked over Larry's body.


This is the key Il Duce.......I think Joe could well be just the man for the job.

[BoxBuzz]

I see. Well thanks for clearing that up.

[BoxBuzz]

I can only imagine that the purpose of you telling me that Larry was smart, is to inform me that another fighter wasn't.....but many thought Ali was very smart....and it didn't work out for him against Joe on one particular night.

Joe was not dumb...and if he was, he seemed to compensate for it pretty well

I

[fightscorecollector]

larry would take most of the early rounds but he faded late in some of his fights and got lazy.

Frazier would not stop coming, its basically ali-frazier 1 again with frazier winning a decision