Tim Witherspoon Versus

[Ezzard]

Possibly going the other way now…

Not sure Tim was behind against Frank but that wouldn’t prove too much. Tim was waiting for his moment and took it when it came.

As a huge Tyson fan when he first came on the scene the one fighter I was nervous about him facing was Witherspoon.

There is no doubt Lewis was behind and desperate against Bruno.

I re-watched it about 12 months ago. Frank was ahead but the tide had turned in that fight. It wasn't as if Frank was walking it...which was sort of how I remembered it.

But yes, Lennox knew he had to do something...

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I haven't seen it in years. I thought Frank had him cornered in the round he was stopped in when Lewis launched what might have been the last hook he ever threw. In any regard, Lennox was clearly the greater fighter but I think Spoon had the more comprehensive result against Bruno. He was clearly ahead to me by the end of that one.

[Controversial]

The Bruno who fought Lewis would've beaten Witherspoon.

[keithmoonhangover]

The Bruno who fought Lewis would've beaten Witherspoon.

Yep.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

The Bruno who fought Lewis would've beaten Witherspoon.

The Witherspoon that fought Bruno would have beaten the Lewis that beat Bruno. Frank's stamina would always be a problem against Witherspoon but he could outpoint him if Tim came in uninterested.

[Controversial]

The Bruno who fought Lewis would've beaten Witherspoon.

The Witherspoon that fought Bruno would have beaten the Lewis that beat Bruno. Frank's stamina would always be a problem against Witherspoon but he could outpoint him if Tim came in uninterested.

Haha

[drunkenpiper36]

To reiterate,

Tim Witherspoon defeated:

- Tony Tubbs
- Greg Page
- Frank Bruno
- Bonecrusher Smith
- Renaldo Snipes
- Quick Tillis
- James Broad
- Jose Ribalta
- Carl Williams
- Jorge Gonzalez
- Alfred Cole

*** He was also arguably robbed against Ray Mercer and may even have deserved a draw against Larry Holmes. I can think of a few linear heavyweight champions who can't claim to having a career like this.****

[keithmoonhangover]

To reiterate,

Tim Witherspoon defeated:

- Tony Tubbs
- Greg Page
- Frank Bruno
- Bonecrusher Smith
- Renaldo Snipes
- Quick Tillis
- James Broad
- Jose Ribalta
- Carl Williams
- Jorge Gonzalez
- Alfred Cole

*** He was also arguably robbed against Ray Mercer and may even have deserved a draw against Larry Holmes. I can think of a few linear heavyweight champions who can't claim to having a career like this.****

Hmmmm.

[drunkenpiper36]

To reiterate,

Tim Witherspoon defeated:

- Tony Tubbs
- Greg Page
- Frank Bruno
- Bonecrusher Smith
- Renaldo Snipes
- Quick Tillis
- James Broad
- Jose Ribalta
- Carl Williams
- Jorge Gonzalez
- Alfred Cole

*** He was also arguably robbed against Ray Mercer and may even have deserved a draw against Larry Holmes. I can think of a few linear heavyweight champions who can't claim to having a career like this.****

Hmmmm.

The men you highlighted deteriorated to having lesser careers. But at the time Witherspoon faced them, they were in good standing. Broad, Tillis, and Ribalta were fringe contenders. Carl the Truth was still ranked pretty highly by the alpha organizations in 1991. Gonzalez was an accomplished Olympian who had beaten Lewis and Bowe in the amateurs and had established a pretty good professional record. Cole had only lost once and was coming off string of cruiserweight title defenses. Of all the aformentioned names, Spoon fought about 4 of them when he was in old age.

[keithmoonhangover]

The men you highlighted deteriorated to having lesser careers. But at the time Witherspoon faced them, they were in good standing. Broad, Tillis, and Ribalta were fringe contenders. Carl the Truth was still ranked pretty highly by the alpha organizations in 1991. Gonzalez was an accomplished Olympian who had beaten Lewis and Bowe in the amateurs and had established a pretty good professional record. Cole had only lost once and was coming off string of cruiserweight title defenses. Of all the aformentioned names, Spoon fought about 4 of them when he was in old age.

I know the history of all of those fighters and none of them ever looked like being a world champion. Sometimes great wins can be measured by what the opponent does after the defeat. Speaking of defeats, list the guys Witherspoon lost to and that shows how beatable he was.

[drunkenpiper36]

The men you highlighted deteriorated to having lesser careers. But at the time Witherspoon faced them, they were in good standing. Broad, Tillis, and Ribalta were fringe contenders. Carl the Truth was still ranked pretty highly by the alpha organizations in 1991. Gonzalez was an accomplished Olympian who had beaten Lewis and Bowe in the amateurs and had established a pretty good professional record. Cole had only lost once and was coming off string of cruiserweight title defenses. Of all the aformentioned names, Spoon fought about 4 of them when he was in old age.

I know the history of all of those fighters and none of them ever looked like being a world champion.

Did I say they did?

Sometimes great wins can be measured by what the opponent does after the defeat.

Sometimes yes. But fighters can also be ruined by defeats, have their records run into the ground by facing too many good opponents in a short period of time, or even more simply just get old.. None of these things change their standing at the time. I also disagree with your statement somewhat in that beating a lesser fighter earlier does not always make the stock value rise if they do something better later on. No one thought anything of Tony Tucker's win over James Douglas, until Buster beat Tyson years later. Still doesn't change the fact that James was a nobody at the time of the Tucker fight. Greg Page was a #1 contender who Larry Holmes ducked when Witherspoon beat him in 1984. Just because Page would get beaten by David Bey, Joe Bugner and many others thereafter, doesn't change the merit in Spoon's win over him at the time.

Speaking of defeats, list the guys Witherspoon lost to and that shows how beatable he was.

At his best? no problem. Larry Holmes via split decision and Pinklon Thomas via Majority decision. The Smith fight was a dive, so need to mention it.

[keithmoonhangover]

At his best? no problem. Larry Holmes via split decision and Pinklon Thomas via Majority decision. The Smith fight was a dive, so need to mention it.

Yep, no need to mention it, none at all.

[drunkenpiper36]

At his best? no problem. Larry Holmes via split decision and Pinklon Thomas via Majority decision. The Smith fight was a dive, so need to mention it.

Yep, no need to mention it, none at all.

Fair enough. If you prefer to rank a man based on a single scandalous fight while ignoring the quality work he did that was legit, then that's your perogative and I won't argue with you for it. Personally I prefer to focus on fights that were on the level and involved meaningful wins.

[keithmoonhangover]

At his best? no problem. Larry Holmes via split decision and Pinklon Thomas via Majority decision. The Smith fight was a dive, so need to mention it.

Yep, no need to mention it, none at all.

Fair enough. If you prefer to rank a man based on a single scandalous fight while ignoring the quality work he did that was legit, then that's your perogative and I won't argue with you for it. Personally I prefer to focus on fights that were on the level and involved meaningful wins.

Witherspoon was unpredictable, yes he beat some good fighters, but because of his inconsistencies, it's as accurate to judge him on a bad night, than on a good.

He dropped the title to Smith, when he was one fight away from fighting Mike Tyson. He was unhappy with his promoter and the purses he was receiving, but throwing away a fight with Tyson like that.

[Ezzard]

Tim was quality. But also beatable.

Here's my issue...and nobody wants to hear it...

David Bey beat Page more comfortably than Tim. Bey was a solid guy but no better than Eddie Chambers. In fact I'd back Eddie to beat him.

I'm not saying Tim wouldn't beat Eddie. But I am saying that those 80s HWs match up evenly with those around today...

One last thing, throwing a fight should be seen as worse than losing it. But I don't believe Tim threw the fight. I think he was unfocused...then he often was...

[Giancarlo]

One last thing, throwing a fight should be seen as worse than losing it. But I don't believe Tim threw the fight. I think he was unfocused...then he often was...

I agree.

He'd already easily beaten Smith and I think he thought he could do it again without much effort.

He sauntered out of his corner like he was going down to the shops to get the morning paper and BOOM he was on the deck.

As I recall he wasn't that badly hurt but Smith wouldn't give him any chance to recover and it was stopped on the 3 knockdown rule.

[Ezzard]

One last thing, throwing a fight should be seen as worse than losing it. But I don't believe Tim threw the fight. I think he was unfocused...then he often was...

I agree.

He'd already easily beaten Smith and I think he thought he could do it again without much effort.

He sauntered out of his corner like he was going down to the shops to get the morning paper and BOOM he was on the deck.

As I recall he wasn't that badly hurt but Smith wouldn't give him any chance to recover and it was stopped on the 3 knockdown rule.

Absolutely. He never seemed glazed or wobbly. He just got mugged. Bonecrusher was on him in a flash Dempsey style.

[Controversial]

To reiterate,

Tim Witherspoon defeated:

- Tony Tubbs
- Greg Page
- Frank Bruno
- Bonecrusher Smith
- Renaldo Snipes
- Quick Tillis
- James Broad
- Jose Ribalta
- Carl Williams
- Jorge Gonzalez
- Alfred Cole

*** He was also arguably robbed against Ray Mercer and may even have deserved a draw against Larry Holmes. I can think of a few linear heavyweight champions who can't claim to having a career like this.****

- Tony Tubbs = MD win
- Greg Page = MD win
- Frank Bruno = Stoppage win (behind on points)
- Bonecrusher Smith = UD win then lost in 1 round
- Renaldo Snipes = MD win
- Quick Tillis = 1st round win (good win over a nearly man)
- James Broad = Far from world class
- Jose Ribalta = MD win pts
- Carl Williams = SD win pts
- Jorge Gonzalez = Stoppage win but far from world class
- Alfred Cole = UD win over a cruiserweight who lost to almost every HW he fought

For someone so highly rated he sure did seem to struggle to beat 2nd tier heavyweights !!!

[SaadOffTheDeck]

One last thing, throwing a fight should be seen as worse than losing it. But I don't believe Tim threw the fight. I think he was unfocused...then he often was...

As I recall he wasn't that badly hurt but Smith wouldn't give him any chance to recover and it was stopped on the 3 knockdown rule.

He wasn't hurt, it was a 'dive'.

[Controversial]

One last thing, throwing a fight should be seen as worse than losing it. But I don't believe Tim threw the fight. I think he was unfocused...then he often was...

As I recall he wasn't that badly hurt but Smith wouldn't give him any chance to recover and it was stopped on the 3 knockdown rule.

He wasn't hurt, it was a 'dive'.

Rubbish, watch the fight. Witherspoon was covering up and got caught with a big right hand and never recovered. When he got up from the first knockdown he was wobbly and had a bleeding nose, was trying to fight back and got floored again, slumping backwards into the ropes when he stood up. He was then being battered, trying to cover up but was clubbed to their floor. There is no truth behind the "fix" story, he just lost.

[keithmoonhangover]

Rubbish, watch the fight. Witherspoon was covering up and got caught with a big right hand and never recovered. When he got up from the first knockdown he was wobbly and had a bleeding nose, was trying to fight back and got floored again, slumping backwards into the ropes when he stood up. He was then being battered, trying to cover up but was clubbed to their floor. There is no truth behind the "fix" story, he just lost.

I agree, it's a great excuse. 'Spoon went into that fight, knowing that if he won, he'd fight Mike Tyson in his next fight. If he did throw the fight, he musn't have fancied his chances against Tyson, who would have eaten him alive.

[drunkenpiper36]

To reiterate,

Tim Witherspoon defeated:

- Tony Tubbs
- Greg Page
- Frank Bruno
- Bonecrusher Smith
- Renaldo Snipes
- Quick Tillis
- James Broad
- Jose Ribalta
- Carl Williams
- Jorge Gonzalez
- Alfred Cole

*** He was also arguably robbed against Ray Mercer and may even have deserved a draw against Larry Holmes. I can think of a few linear heavyweight champions who can't claim to having a career like this.****

- Tony Tubbs = MD win
- Greg Page = MD win
- Frank Bruno = Stoppage win (behind on points)
- Bonecrusher Smith = UD win then lost in 1 round
- Renaldo Snipes = MD win
- Quick Tillis = 1st round win (good win over a nearly man)
- James Broad = Far from world class
- Jose Ribalta = MD win pts
- Carl Williams = SD win pts
- Jorge Gonzalez = Stoppage win but far from world class
- Alfred Cole = UD win over a cruiserweight who lost to almost every HW he fought

For someone so highly rated he sure did seem to struggle to beat 2nd tier heavyweights !!!

Did you see those fights or is it just convenient to look up boxrec ratings and agree with the judges? Also, you're calling those men " second tier heavyweights" when in fact, a lot of them were highly ranked at the time, and a few of whom Larry Holmes had even tip toed around.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

As I recall he wasn't that badly hurt but Smith wouldn't give him any chance to recover and it was stopped on the 3 knockdown rule.

He wasn't hurt, it was a 'dive'.

Rubbish, watch the fight. Witherspoon was covering up and got caught with a big right hand and never recovered. When he got up from the first knockdown he was wobbly and had a bleeding nose, was trying to fight back and got floored again, slumping backwards into the ropes when he stood up. He was then being battered, trying to cover up but was clubbed to their floor. There is no truth behind the "fix" story, he just lost.

I saw the fight, he got the hell out of there. I never called it a fix, he didn't get paid. I've also never seen him hurt in any other fight. Hold it against him all you want.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

To reiterate,

Tim Witherspoon defeated:

- Tony Tubbs
- Greg Page
- Frank Bruno
- Bonecrusher Smith
- Renaldo Snipes
- Quick Tillis
- James Broad
- Jose Ribalta
- Carl Williams
- Jorge Gonzalez
- Alfred Cole

*** He was also arguably robbed against Ray Mercer and may even have deserved a draw against Larry Holmes. I can think of a few linear heavyweight champions who can't claim to having a career like this.****

- Tony Tubbs = MD win
- Greg Page = MD win
- Frank Bruno = Stoppage win (behind on points)
- Bonecrusher Smith = UD win then lost in 1 round
- Renaldo Snipes = MD win
- Quick Tillis = 1st round win (good win over a nearly man)
- James Broad = Far from world class
- Jose Ribalta = MD win pts
- Carl Williams = SD win pts
- Jorge Gonzalez = Stoppage win but far from world class
- Alfred Cole = UD win over a cruiserweight who lost to almost every HW he fought

For someone so highly rated he sure did seem to struggle to beat 2nd tier heavyweights !!!

Did you see those fights or is it just convenient to look up boxrec ratings and agree with the judges? Also, you're calling those men " second tier heavyweights" when in fact, a lot of them were highly ranked at the time, and a few of whom Larry Holmes had even tip toed around.

Too many people rate all losses as a negative. His defeat to Holmes is a fantastic result. Better than anything on guys like Tyson or the Klitschko's resume.

[Controversial]

I don't hold it against him, I just don't accept the convenient "fix" or "he threw it" argument. He got caught early and never properly recovered, simple as that in my opinion.