Jack Johnson's legacy?

[NYDominican]

What do you think Jack Johnsons professional boxing legacy is?


How do you think Jack ranks all time in the heavyweight division?


Do you see Jack being somewhere in the top 15?


Top 10?


Or, top 5?



Why do you think Jack Johnson should rank at that respective position?

[Giancarlo]

Top 10

[drunkenpiper36]

He should rank very high. He held the colored heavyweight title for years before winning the linear crown and beat most of the very best black and white fighters of his era.

[dempseyfire]

Top 5. His pre-title record was very strong, and I think in head to head matchups he's able to beat anybody prime for prime.

[scallum]

Top 10 in boxing. Incredible boost to a severely oppressed peoples. I have recently had the honor of working in same gym with his great,great grandkids. They are very talented.

[ben geoghegan]

The greatest heavyweight of his time. Ranks equal to any heavyweight who ever lived based on his ability and accomplishments in his era. Head to head I have no idea. But his career has been one of the most interesting to me personally though.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Top 10 in boxing. Incredible boost to a severely oppressed peoples. I have recently had the honor of working in same gym with his great,great grandkids. They are very talented.

Agreed he's a top 10 Heavyweight. Completely disagree that he was a boost to oppressed people. He didn't do his race any favors at all.

[raylawpc]

Top 10 in boxing. Incredible boost to a severely oppressed peoples. I have recently had the honor of working in same gym with his great,great grandkids. They are very talented.

Fascinating! Another 'first' by Johnson! He managed to somehow have great-great grandchildren without bothering to first have children!

[Ezzard]

Top 3. He breaks into the Ali-Louis category for me. Seamus will have smoke coming out of his ears.

[elmersalsa]

the first Black Heavyweight World Champion. A top 3 heavyweight in my list. A top 20 all time best p4p

[DaveyMac]

I think he is easy top 15, and maybe top 10, but I can't see top 5.

[scallum]

Top 10 in boxing. Incredible boost to a severely oppressed peoples. I have recently had the honor of working in same gym with his great,great grandkids. They are very talented.

Fascinating! Another 'first' by Johnson! He managed to somehow have great-great grandchildren without bothering to first have children!

I never even took the time to research this info just took the father of the young boxers word. Just researched it once I saw your post and Jack Johnson didn't have any kids according to Wikipedia. I'm gonna to present this info at the gym

[Seamus]

Jack Johnson's 5 Best Performances

LKO 26 Jess Willard
W10 Al Kaufman
TKO 9 Fireman Jim Flynn
KO 20 Sam McVea
W 20 Denver Ed Martin

Top 6 Fighters of Jack Johnson's Title Reign

1.Sam Langford
2.Joe Jeannette
3.Sam McVea (was KO'd by Johnson when he was 19, they never fought again)
4.Gunboat Smith
5.Harry Wills
6.Luther McCarty

[man]

ATG10 at heavy. p4p top twenty. unbelievable
physique and personality. plus imagine him and
ali in a trash talking contest ...

above all that a very brave man. wherever
he went he could be sure someone conspired
to lynch him, but still he held his head up high.
i didn't study the history of darker skinned people
in america, but my guess is, he was among the
very first who made his people feel ... proud.

[dempseyfire]

Jack Johnson's 5 Best Performances

LKO 26 Jess Willard
W10 Al Kaufman
TKO 9 Fireman Jim Flynn
KO 20 Sam McVea
W 20 Denver Ed Martin

Top 6 Fighters of Jack Johnson's Title Reign

1.Sam Langford
2.Joe Jeannette
3.Sam McVea (was KO'd by Johnson when he was 19, they never fought again)
4.Gunboat Smith
5.Harry Wills
6.Luther McCarty

Take out Flynn and Kaufman and replace with the decision wins over Jeannette and Langford. Both Jeannette and McVey had many more fights than Boxrec gives credit for when they fought Johnson. Also McCarty died before he could really become a #1 contender. Wills was not a top contender until after Johnson's reign.

[zojo]

I read a pice in RING about 20 years ago that stated Johnson was the greatest defensive heavyweight champ ever.

Didn't see much film of him until I watched the Ken Burns doc on him.

Then I saw John Ruiz from 100 years ago: holding, wrestling, jab-clinch-right hand, overhook, punch.

If Johnson is top 10, then so is Ruiz.

[Seamus]

Wills was a pretty good fighter by the last year of Johnson's reign. Langford was a MW when Johnson beat him, and Jeannette and McVea became better fighters after there bouts with Johnson. Sure they both probably had more fights than are listed on BoxRec, and the 22 yr old Jack Johnson probably had more than 10 fights when the smaller-past his best Joe Choynski knocked him out in 3 rds.

Johnson's resume is loaded with old, raw. and small fighters. Yes, there are some decent wins, but positively nothing that should get his name mentioned in the same breath as Ali.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Top 10 in boxing. Incredible boost to a severely oppressed peoples. I have recently had the honor of working in same gym with his great,great grandkids. They are very talented.

Fascinating! Another 'first' by Johnson! He managed to somehow have great-great grandchildren without bothering to first have children!

I never even took the time to research this info just took the father of the young boxers word. Just researched it once I saw your post and Jack Johnson didn't have any kids according to Wikipedia. I'm gonna to present this info at the gym

Or you could just go to Wikipedia and change it. It amazes me how many people treat that as a fact. Ray's word > Wikipedia.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

ATG10 at heavy. p4p top twenty. unbelievable
physique and personality. plus imagine him and
ali in a trash talking contest ...

above all that a very brave man. wherever
he went he could be sure someone conspired
to lynch him, but still he held his head up high.
i didn't study the history of darker skinned people
in america, but my guess is, he was among the
very first who made his people feel ... proud.

Welcome back man, sorry to say IlDuce is still here. Your ultimatum didn't work.

[keithmoonhangover]

Top 3. He breaks into the Ali-Louis category for me. Seamus will have smoke coming out of his ears.

I have him at three as well.

[dempseyfire]

I read a pice in RING about 20 years ago that stated Johnson was the greatest defensive heavyweight champ ever.

Didn't see much film of him until I watched the Ken Burns doc on him.

Then I saw John Ruiz from 100 years ago: holding, wrestling, jab-clinch-right hand, overhook, punch.

If Johnson is top 10, then so is Ruiz.

Wow you're a real boxing historian

[dempseyfire]

Wills was a pretty good fighter by the last year of Johnson's reign. Langford was a MW when Johnson beat him, and Jeannette and McVea became better fighters after there bouts with Johnson. Sure they both probably had more fights than are listed on BoxRec, and the 22 yr old Jack Johnson probably had more than 10 fights when the smaller-past his best Joe Choynski knocked him out in 3 rds.

Johnson's resume is loaded with old, raw. and small fighters. Yes, there are some decent wins, but positively nothing that should get his name mentioned in the same breath as Ali.

Johnson was also skinnier than he'd be later at 185, giving him a 30 lb weight pull. If they'd met after Johnson won the title, they would've both been heavier and the 30 lb weight pull would have remained. Sure Langford would've been more ready for the fight but by the time he met Johnson he was already beating top heavyweights and he wasn't even competitive with Johnson.

McVey was touted as the top heavyweight on the West Coast. Sure he was young but not the crude product you're talking about.

Choynski was smaller and past his prime but also one of the top lb for lb fighters of the entire era and a bonafide Hall of Famer. Johnson losing to him at that stage is no black mark.

[Ambling Alp II]

He had a great career but it could have been even greater. Had he successfully defended the title vs Langford, Jeannette and McVey it would have helped a lot. Early in his title reign (before he got old), he could have done it. Actually defending the title against just two or even one would have helped.

There is the argument that a fight with another black fighter would not have drawn well at that time. The risk/reward was not great enough for Johnson take a chance.

Having said all of this, a fighter should be rated by what he actually do. He beat a lot good/great fighters. If you go each individually, people say this guy was too small, this one too inexperienced, this one over the hill. I just think that very few fighters could fight all of these guys and almost always win. He was one of the very best.

[Chuck1052]

Jack Johnson won all three of his bouts with Sam McVea handily. While McVea became a formidable fighter very quickly after his career began, it is probable that he was rough around the edges at the time. After McVea was defeated by Johnson for the second time, Los Angeles boxing fans felt that Johnson simply was too good for McVea and were stunned when the two fighters were matched for a third time in San Francisco.

After being knocked out in the 20th round in his third bout with Johnson, McVea parted with his manager, Billy Roche, a businessman from Oxnard. Roche had discovered McVea when the latter was working for him as a buggy washer at the Roche and Rowe Livery Stable. As far as I know, Roche didn't have any experience in the boxing business. There was a well-known referee named Billy Roche at the time, but he wasn't the individual who managed McVea.

While it appears that Roche spent quite a bit of money on McVea while managing him, I believe that he made a mistake in having McVea fight Johnson a second or third time. After parting with McVea after the third bout with Johnson, Roche managed Denver Ed Martin in the latter's second bouts with McVea and Johnson. In his second bout with McVea, Martin won a decision after ten rounds in Los Angeles. In his first bout with McVea, Martin was knocked out in the first round in Los Angeles. After the knockout defeat to Johnson in San Francisco and the loss to Martin in Los Angeles during 1904, McVea never had a recorded bout in the two biggest cities in California again despite being active in the state until 1907. In short, McVea's career was in the doldrums from 1904 to 1907 despite scoring two more knockouts over Martin during that time.

McVea's career really wasn't revived to a great degree until leaving California and going to New York and Europe during 1907. He certainly had his peak years while fighting in Europe and Australia. But I still rank Johnson, Sam Langford and Joe Jeannette over McVea if all four of the mentioned fighters were in their peak years. It may be that McVea would have a good chance of beating Johnson from 1912 to 1914, but the latter was past his peak by that time.

- Chuck Johnston

[Ambling Alp II]

Great post

I think Langford was a hair better than Wills, Wills a hair better than Jeannette, and Jeannette a hair better than McVey.
Certainly on a given day, any of the four could beat the others.

I think when Johnson first won the title from Burns, he would have beaten anyone around. However, he was older than the rest of them, and by the end of the his 7 year title reign probably would have lost to all of them. (Wills was the youngest and wasn't a contender until near the end of Johnson's title reign).

What could have been.....