Sonny Liston "Of Course I Took A Dive In Maine"

[gilgamesh]

So these quotes have stayed buried for nearly 50 years until you magically unearthed them huh? You're such a f*cking douchebag

[keithmoonhangover]

If Sonny threw the fight, he saved himself another beating. Ali would dominate him.

[Controversial]

Dempsey, Marciano and others discussing the "Phantom Punch". What were the betting odds of Liston losing in the 1st round?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuLWvYRpVR4

[BoxBuzz]

I am going to provide a hyper link to some forensic evidence.

I would like everyone to look at this as if for the first time. And with an open mind.

I'm going to walk you down some details that I have mentioned before, but only now feel inspired to really get to the nitty gritty of it.

The knockdown was not staged. It was a physics absolute. There was NOWHERE for Liston to go but down, based on every law of physics there is. I'm telling you in no uncertain terms two things...and no more than two things.

1. The knockdown is 100% genuine....it is a forensics LOCK. Period. You can play the "grassy knoll" or "magic bullet" game all day long and it will not change the measurable physics of this. This is HD slow motion and does not lie. (Unlike Il Duce) lol. To the educated eye this is not controversial. And I will walk you through it step by step in a moment.

Unless you think this has been photoshop pixelated? You may choose to disregard this evidence, but find an engineer..or better yet anyone skeletal muscular expert with just a bit of forensic training that you trust. Get his/her take on what transpires during these nano seconds and everyone of them will tell you the same thing. Liston MUST go down. And there is Nothing to suggest he had time to prepare, plan, or even react to the punch.

2. As a head injury specialist I can tell you in no uncertain terms, The force demonstrated here IS ENOUGH to discombobulate....and the impact is in a vulnerable area that COULD result in delayed reaction.

I am not saying it did....no one but Sonny could. But if he was acting....he took advantage of a punch that he probably thought could have been bought by the public, simply by the way it felt to him. So if he's playing, he's counting on it being believable. He would have no idea what it "happened" to look like from a viewers perspective. But it must have felt rather like a mule kick based on how his body reacts.

Here is the link Please view it if you are interested...even if you have watched it before. Also play with the "stop action" feature....a lot. Have some fun with this, and make comments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prxnGjKjxoo

[BoxBuzz]

Now you will have to stop it many times to properly view what I'm going to point out.

1. Liston is moving forward with a leading left that will not make it's target.

2. Liston's body is in forward motion. This forward movement and the SPEED of the incoming shot are the most important critical factors. Because they have an exponential effect on what is to come. And does compensate for what people will recognize as poor foot placement on Ali's part.

3. At the nano second of impact Liston's neck is seen snapping smartly/crisply from left to right and SLIGHTLY DOWNWARD. These angles are the second most important forensic aspect. This is a powerful combination and the angles apparent in this collision have my attention for good reason. Reasons that I won't bog us down with.

4. Look closely at Ali's right arm and how it is effected upon impact. Also look at his upper right Shoulder and notice the waves going through his upper torso.

5. At nearly the same time Look at Liston's Rib Cage. The ripple effect I'm talking about goes from Ali's arm, to Liston's neck, and into Liston's rib cage. Focus on the rippling rib cage if you will. (With the aforementioned forward motion and angle of neck-spine in relation to the incoming....it's a quite ripe physics cocktail folks).

6. I have another version of this which shows one more item...a lower view of Liston's left thigh which convulses in a similar manner consistent with Liston's neck, and rib cage and Ali's Arms, and upper torso movement. This is a pretty deep FUSION of compensatory cause and effect which would lay most of us out. And is a perfect storm for putting a good goofing on the inner ear fluids, which COULD explain this delayed reaction.

I won't say that Liston could not have recovered, but I will say that these few nanoseconds are as rich a forensic environment for a head trauma/inner ear fouling as you could ask for. AND pretty well hidden inside of a nightmarishly slim time line. And Ali's odd foot placement. But a whole lot is going on here that clearly belies the need for him to have himself properly planted.

When I was young I was a great doubter of this being real. As most of you are, and are likely to remain. I think the first thing I focused on was the Left whizzing by Liston's head that hit's nothing but air and Liston hitting the ground. Because everything before that goes by so damn fast...so fast that it's about all you retain in one viewing. That late left just looks so harmless, and useless that it tends to frame the moment as comical for some.

But I now have no doubt that this series of events before that useless left COULD have caused exactly what you saw in that ring.

With all this said....Yes it could be just what all the conspiracy theorists say it is. Liston taking a dive. But if he did, he deserved this set of circumstances, because so few can ever be brought to believe that it simply "is what it is."

Now what Walcott pulled after that is just Keystone Cops stuff. And it Takes an Il Duce to come up with a "grand unification theory" that somehow captures that into what I just described.

[BoxBuzz]

So we have a thread of polar opposites...wide dynamics .....if you will.

A detailed rather myopic and dry deconstruct of a very small slice of time.


And an outrageous fictional alternate universe and nearly "channeling" of a deceased former champion.

We have a Dr Who episode in the making here.

I say we take our dog and pony show on the road!

[BoxBuzz]

I think the folks at Disney would love to hire you for your Imagineering" abilities.

You form your opinion, then build a fictional construct around it in order to further your own belief system. It's interesting yet scarey.

"I need scarers who are confident, tenacious, tough, intimidating. I need scarers like... like... James P. Sullivan."
—Henry J. Waternoose III

What do you know about James P. Sullivan?

I could see you jumping into children's bedrooms and scaring the children for the energy it produces.

[yancey]

Buzz, do what do you attribute Liston's second collapse to the canvas after getting up to one knee?

Some sort of delayed neuro-muscular reaction exacerbated by inconsistent fluid levels?

Acute discombulation?

Or could it be attributed to the "Rippling Rib Cage" theory?

[raylawpc]

I think Buzz is 1/2 right. I've always believed the knockDOWN was a genuine flash knockdown. But I think he could have gotten up again just about as quickly. Why Sonny chose to flop around on the canvas like a beached whale is something only Sonny knew and took to the grave with him.

[BoxBuzz]

Well...for those who labored through it you know. For those who just won't look...that's ok.

Ray....all I've done is ask folks to consider the evidence. The Knockdown is absolute and without doubt...except for those who believe that the laws of physics don't apply. The man had no time to "think" that moment through.

The rest is conjecture on all our parts. I just think anyone with an open mind can decide for themselves. And in order to get to the facts in this case, you really have to labor through a lot of detail.

I recognize sentiment and "feelings" have a lot of weight. So those who are betrothed to a certain "truth" have at it!

Yancey...I think your kidding....unless you want argue that the world is really flat.

I happen to think that Sharkey offered up his jaw to Carnera. So I recognize that such a "dive" is a possibility. I'm just not sold, and I am open to any manifest evidence that is not rumor based.

My belief? My "sentiment"? Is that Sonny was knocked down, and rattled..and had no will to continue. There are no conspiracies...other than the internal complex psyche of Sonny himself.

There is one simple fact that is irrefutable, though it remains the stuff of imagined controversy. The punch had genuine steam though some of it was Sonny generated, and it is clearly evidenced.

[BoxBuzz]

Dr. Buzz

Don't you find it a bit 'Odd', that Sonny Boy was not available for any Newspaper or Television interviews
after the bout.

Besides that little after-bout 'Shamamigans' press conference.

For months, Sonny Boy was 'long gone'..........in Denver and Las Vegas, yet he was unavailable for comment.

December 10, 1965

Sonny Liston 'Nickel-and Diming' it in Denver.

Odd? Not really...he was ashamed of his loss/s. Shame, and possibly not from his lack of integrity, but from his lack of efficacy. Embarrassment.....something you know nothing of. So I do understand your quandary on this subject.

[BoxBuzz]

Hmm examples of the ol 17 second dual stage punch.....2 others come to mind.

Zab Judah....
Trevor Berbick

examples of folks who have been hit with the ol' "17 second dual stage punch". As Il Duce frames it.
(Which of course does not exist...they were simply pulling the ol "Sonny Wobble". lol.)

I actually think Zab improved upon it.


It's not about the specific punch...it's about the cross angles of movement, and how they affect the inner ear. The delay aspect can be very eratic.

Troo Dat lol Alien based Science fiction fact it is!

Anyways...I was just kiddin....I was just seein' how much hooey I could sell round these parts.

Il Duce...you are kind and tolerant to put up with my side show.

[BoxBuzz]

Question for Dr. Buzz

Why on Earth would Sonny have no will to continue.............???

Will had absolutely nothing to do with it.

For God Sakes, Cassius had no idea of what punch floored Sonny, until he watched the tape..........

At first he said it was a left hook, of which he threw absolutely 'none' during the bout.

Your fascinating nonsense continues to fall away...of it's very own weight. And yes..... I sort of sadistically enjoy it!

[Giancarlo]

My belief? My "sentiment"? Is that Sonny was knocked down, and rattled..and had no will to continue. There are no conspiracies...other than the internal complex psyche of Sonny himself.

It's always looked that way to me, Buzz.

[BoxBuzz]

I am however very curious as to the source of these wonderfully well channeled Quotes of Sonny.

Was this the work of Edgar Cayce?

[Controversial]

I don't doubt Sonny took a dive. Up to the point no one had done that to him (or after) and Clay had never knocked someone bandy like that with one punch (before or after). Liston was a big tough guy so for him to react to that punch was very odd. The way he rolled back over just didn't look natural. I've read all the head snapping arguments before but any punch that hits someone's head will turn it so it's a "grasping at straws" argument in my opinion. Considering Liston's shady background a fix isn't beyond the realms of possibilities.

[NazNaci1]

Wasn't there a record of Sonny referring to that fight and the result, something along the lines of,' It wasn't that hard of a punch but it caught me partially off balance and knocked me down. I then waited for the count but I never heard one as Clay never went to a neutral corner (hence why I think he flopped down again, to give himself more time to recover and wait for Jersey Joe's count).'

Then Joe starts counting, eventually, but the time keeper calls it and the fight is over.

So in my humble opinion, the KD is clearly genuine and while Sonny was waiting for Joe's count, the timekeeper is counting all the while and by the time Joe comes over to Sonny, the timekeeper says, 'It's all over'.

No fix at all. Fight over, nothing fishy, just circumstances decided the outcome (Ali running around the ring with Joe in pursuit, no count and confusion in the ring).

[Controversial]

Wasn't there a record of Sonny referring to that fight and the result, something along the lines of,' It wasn't that hard of a punch but it caught me partially off balance and knocked me down. I then waited for the count but I never heard one as Clay never went to a neutral corner (hence why I think he flopped down again, to give himself more time to recover and wait for Jersey Joe's count).'

Then Joe starts counting, eventually, but the time keeper calls it and the fight is over.

So in my humble opinion, the KD is clearly genuine and while Sonny was waiting for Joe's count, the timekeeper is counting all the while and by the time Joe comes over to Sonny, the timekeeper says, 'It's all over'.

No fix at all. Fight over, nothing fishy, just circumstances decided the outcome (Ali running around the ring with Joe in pursuit, no count and confusion in the ring).

If genuine why didn't Liston and his team make a huge deal of the stoppage? You are always told to listen to the refs count, the ref stops the fight, not the timekeeper.

[NazNaci1]

It was chaotic in there, at that time, one guy looking for the Ref for guidance, the other guy running around the ring with the Referee in pursuit, adrenalin was at its peak for all of them.

I do agree with you that it is the Referee's call and Joe would and should have had to power to ignore the time keeper but if you look at his face and actions, he is just as perplexed, flustered and confused as anyone else. You can see him looking and talking to the time keeper. To suggest that something was not on a 'level' is pretty wide of the mark, really. Questions can be asked, of course and should but to make something out of nothing?

What happened is pretty obvious and it's all on film, so not sure how much clearer it could be. Wrong ruling by Joe but not a corrupt or deliberate mistake, in my opinion.

[Controversial]

It was chaotic in there, at that time, one guy looking for the Ref for guidance, the other guy running around the ring with the Referee in pursuit, adrenalin was at its peak for all of them.

I do agree with you that it is the Referee's call and Joe would and should have had to power to ignore the time keeper but if you look at his face and actions, he is just as perplexed, flustered and confused as anyone else. You can see him looking and talking to the time keeper. To suggest that something was not on a 'level' is pretty wide of the mark, really. Questions can be asked, of course and should but to make something out of nothing?

What happened is pretty obvious and it's all on film, so not sure how much clearer it could be. Wrong ruling by Joe but not a corrupt or deliberate mistake, in my opinion.

Of course we all entitled to our opinions but the whole thing just didn't look right to me. No one ever done that to Liston and Ali never done that to anyone else in his career. Their first fight was controversial in the whole ointment in the eyes allegation and shoulder injury. Then the rematch Liston falls over at the slightest of punches and rolls around like he's been hit by a truck. Very fishy to me.

[keithmoonhangover]

Now you will have to stop it many times to properly view what I'm going to point out.

1. Liston is moving forward with a leading left that will not make it's target.

2. Liston's body is in forward motion. This forward movement and the SPEED of the incoming shot are the most important critical factors. Because they have an exponential effect on what is to come. And does compensate for what people will recognize as poor foot placement on Ali's part.

3. At the nano second of impact Liston's neck is seen snapping smartly/crisply from left to right and SLIGHTLY DOWNWARD. These angles are the second most important forensic aspect. This is a powerful combination and the angles apparent in this collision have my attention for good reason. Reasons that I won't bog us down with.

4. Look closely at Ali's right arm and how it is effected upon impact. Also look at his upper right Shoulder and notice the waves going through his upper torso.

5. At nearly the same time Look at Liston's Rib Cage. The ripple effect I'm talking about goes from Ali's arm, to Liston's neck, and into Liston's rib cage. Focus on the rippling rib cage if you will. (With the aforementioned forward motion and angle of neck-spine in relation to the incoming....it's a quite ripe physics cocktail folks).

6. I have another version of this which shows one more item...a lower view of Liston's left thigh which convulses in a similar manner consistent with Liston's neck, and rib cage and Ali's Arms, and upper torso movement. This is a pretty deep FUSION of compensatory cause and effect which would lay most of us out. And is a perfect storm for putting a good goofing on the inner ear fluids, which COULD explain this delayed reaction.

I won't say that Liston could not have recovered, but I will say that these few nanoseconds are as rich a forensic environment for a head trauma/inner ear fouling as you could ask for. AND pretty well hidden inside of a nightmarishly slim time line. And Ali's odd foot placement. But a whole lot is going on here that clearly belies the need for him to have himself properly planted.

When I was young I was a great doubter of this being real. As most of you are, and are likely to remain. I think the first thing I focused on was the Left whizzing by Liston's head that hit's nothing but air and Liston hitting the ground. Because everything before that goes by so damn fast...so fast that it's about all you retain in one viewing. That late left just looks so harmless, and useless that it tends to frame the moment as comical for some.

But I now have no doubt that this series of events before that useless left COULD have caused exactly what you saw in that ring.

With all this said....Yes it could be just what all the conspiracy theorists say it is. Liston taking a dive. But if he did, he deserved this set of circumstances, because so few can ever be brought to believe that it simply "is what it is."

Now what Walcott pulled after that is just Keystone Cops stuff. And it Takes an Il Duce to come up with a "grand unification theory" that somehow captures that into what I just described.

Great post mate.

[keithmoonhangover]

Sonny Liston

'Yea, this spot in the Ring in Lewiston, Maine was the best place to 'take a dive'. Who the
hell was up in this part of the country anyway.'



'Six-Months later, when things quieted down, the boys in Las Vegas gave Sonny Boy a
new house right off the 15th Fairway along the Stardust Country Club, complete with
furnishings and an in-ground pool overlooking the Golf Course.'

'When Sonny Boy arrived at the house, in the driveway were '2' brand new 1966 Cadillac's,
courtesy of the Las Vegas Hotel Association'.

Il Duce, don't you think if Liston threw the fight, that makes him a cheating scumbag? Ali already dominated in the first fight, despite Liston's cheating gloves.

[keithmoonhangover]

Keith,

That doesn't make Sonny Boy 'a cheating scumbag'.

I like to think of it as a 'wise' business decision.

Jack McKinney {Sportswriter} > "Don't feel bad about Sonny. He left Maine a very rich man. He's rolling in money now."

As Cassius Cay said after the bout, "Sonny Liston is a criminal and a gangster."

So throwing a fight is OK? I know you wouldn't say the same if Ali had done it.

[keithmoonhangover]

What's A Poor Boy To Do

Keith,

Are you aware, that Sonny Boy was 'banned' from participating in Professional Boxing in 48 of the 50 States
prior to the bout in Maine.

As well as all of Europe and the British-Commonwealth.

You do know that none of that was Ali's fault don't you?

[ThatOne]

This has been discussed ad nauseum and ad infinitum. The punch was legit. It's easy to get knocked down even from a glazing blow.
Liston was knocked down. He could have got up but chose not to. He said that he thought Ali was crazy enough to hit him as he was getting up because he would have been defenseless as he would have had to put one hand on the canvas for balance.

What's the difference? He would have got a worse ass beating than the first time.