James J. Jeffries '1902' vs. Muhammad Ali '1974' ~ 25-Rounds

[BoxBuzz]

So we are only talking about a particular slice of time?

[keithmoonhangover]

So we are only talking about a particular slice of time?

Correcto Mundo

A specific date and time for each fighter.

James J. Jeffries {July 4, 1902}
vs.
Muhammad Ali {October 30, 1974}

Beef and Brawn vs. Box and Move

Jeffries is slow and predictable. Ali is one of the smartest boxers in history. Ali stops him, easy-peasy-lemon-squeezy.

[keithmoonhangover]

After 15-Rounds

Muhammad Ali would be ahead in Rounds 11-2-2, but his hands would be so sore, that he would not
be able to maintain any heavy punch-rate.

'Big Jeff' then walks Muhammad down like a Dragon following an injured Leopard.

Thudding body blows into the 'ribs, kidneys, liver and stomach' have Muhammad leaking by Round 20.

Taxi for Mr Duce.

[grevan]

After 15-Rounds

Muhammad Ali would be ahead in Rounds 11-2-2, but his hands would be so sore, that he would not
be able to maintain any heavy punch-rate.

'Big Jeff' then walks Muhammad down like a Dragon following an injured Leopard.

Thudding body blows into the 'ribs, kidneys, liver and stomach' have Muhammad leaking by Round 20.

Taxi for Mr Duce.

Straight to the psychiatric ward.

A Dragon (being a mythical animal and all) hunting down a leopard - also something that wouldn't have happened...

[gilgamesh]

After 15-Rounds

Muhammad Ali would be ahead in Rounds 11-2-2, but his hands would be so sore, that he would not
be able to maintain any heavy punch-rate.

'Big Jeff' then walks Muhammad down like a Dragon following an injured Leopard.

Thudding body blows into the 'ribs, kidneys, liver and stomach' have Muhammad leaking by Round 20.

Taxi for Mr Duce.

Straight to the psychiatric ward.

A Dragon (being a mythical animal and all) hunting down a leopard - also something that wouldn't have happened...

A Dragon is about as real as a version of Jim Jeffries that could whip Ali's ass. Neither have ever existed on this Earth.

[Tomasino]

Holy bat shit. This is getting cringeworthy.

[pound per pound]

Ali stoppage in 8 or 9.

EDIT: Actually on second thoughts from re-watching Jeffries I reckon I could beat him, Ali probably earlier than I first thought.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZh--rmNfxk

Those are hired actors, not Fitzsimmons or Jeffries. You can see the real Jeffries tear down Gus Ruhlin on film. Jeffries was not a lumbering big man. He was quick on his feet. In a 25 round match he would take out Ali.

[keithmoonhangover]

Muhammad Ali

October 1974 = Age; 32 years, 9 months

Not as quick, sporadic offensive spurts, and lack of a big punch.

Too many sessions of doing nothing in a Round, and bizarre actions.

Numerous lengths of leaning on the ropes and doing nothing.

Was also now caught with wide looping 'sucker' punches.

You do know that Jeffries had virtually no defence, slow foot speed, rarely threw more than one punch at a time and did nothing in the clinch, don't you?

[SteveO]

A Dragon is about as real as a version of Jim Jeffries that could whip Ali's ass. Neither have ever existed on this Earth.

LMAO

[keithmoonhangover]

Keith Moon,

I guess James J. Jeffries was a bum.

So the expert Old Timers from 1954 who discussed his career in depth were,,,,,,,,,,,'morons'.

No, he wasn't a bum. He was a great fighter in his time. But his style was no suited to fighting Ali.

[keithmoonhangover]

Keith Moon,

I guess James J. Jeffries was a bum.

So the expert Old Timers from 1954 who discussed his career in depth were,,,,,,,,,,,'morons'.

No, he wasn't a bum. He was a great fighter in his time. But his style was no suited to fighting Ali.

I think the opposite,

Muhammad Ali's style was not suited to fighting James J. Jeffries.

Slow and steady, defeats laying back on the ropes and fighting in spurts.

Where would this fight take place?

[keithmoonhangover]

Fight Location

Reno, Nevada in the high heat of July 4th.

What makes you think Ali would stay on the ropes?

[raylawpc]

If you are talking about the Jeffries of 1902-03 versus an Ali of the 1960s or early 1970s, Jeff is going to find himself in deep water. Boxing improved too much in terms of training, technique, equipment, etc. (Although it would have been interesting to see how a modern Ali would have done fighting with in those conditions.)

But if you are talking about a Jeffries born on April 15, 1945 instead of April 15, 1875, who has all the advantages of the improvements in boxing over the ensuing 60+ years, then you are talking about something all together different. By all accounts, Jeffries was a marvelous all-around athlete, and we know that he had several natural advantages as a fighter with his toughness, endurance, strength and power. In the 1960s or 1970s, I suspect you would have seen in Jeffries a 6'2" 220-pound Marciano, except with his "Suzy-Q" being his left instead of his right. (Wasn't Ali decked three times from left hooks?) A fight between that guy and Muhammad Ali would have been one hell of a fight.

Jeffries, Ali and Joe Louis are my three all-time greatest heavyweights.

Of course, had Jeffries been born in 1945, it's debatable he would have even been a prizefighter. In the late 1800s-early 1900s, boxing and baseball were the only two sports that really mattered, and at which one could make any serious cash. So it kind of narrowed the field of sports in which you could compete and make real money. I suspect if Jeff had been a product of my generation, he would have been a pro football player - an All-Pro linebacker. He never really liked boxing very much, even though he was very good at it.

[keithmoonhangover]

Good Analysis Ray-Law-PC

But the James J. Jeffries of 1902 would not have to worry so much about a Full-Round of
quickness in the Muhammad Ali of 1974.

Over a 25-Round bout, those later Round left hooks into the face and right-hand smashes
into the mid-section would numb Muhammad by Round 20.

This bout would be a 'drag-out' slow-paced Marathon, not a 1/4 Mile Drag Race.

Ali never went down from a body shot and took the best shots of Frazier and Foreman.

[keithmoonhangover]

You better ask - Roy 'Tiger' Williams and Al 'Blue' Lewis about that................... :>

And, Oscar Bonavena floored Muhammad with a 'wicked' left-hook to the mid-section in Round 9,
that took the legs out from Muhammad.

Muhammad 'tasted the dirty canvas', but the Referee - Mark Conn blew the call.

After the bout, Mark Conn 'apologized' for his error.

Mark Conn, "It was categorically not a knockdown. Ali slipped while throwing a punch."

[gilgamesh]

Referee - Mark Conn

"I made an error. Oscar threw a left-hook to the mid-section, and it landed. No matter what,
Muhammad went down from the force of the punch, as it landed with a thud."

"Yes, Muhammad was throwing a punch just after the left-hook ripped his belly. But, his legs
went out because of the force from Oscar's punch, not because of the re-coil from his miss."

"As I moved in, I did ask Muhammad if he was OK. So yes, it was a knockdown."

Yet another made up quote. A referee wouldn't be so long-winded about a call he thought he made a mistake on.

[raylawpc]

Good Analysis Ray-Law-PC

But the James J. Jeffries of 1902 would not have to worry so much about a Full-Round of
quickness in the Muhammad Ali of 1974.

Over a 25-Round bout, those later Round left hooks into the face and right-hand smashes
into the mid-section would numb Muhammad by Round 20.

This bout would be a 'drag-out' slow-paced Marathon, not a 1/4 Mile Drag Race.

If they fought in the 1970s, it would be 15 rounds. But if Jeff's fighting a Cassius Clay born in 1872, and Clay is fighting in the style of those times, you are right; it would have been a 20 or 25 round fight. But I suspect given Ali's natural talents, a Cassius Clay born in 1872 would have been an awesome fighter even in the styles of those times. It still would have been a hell of a fight.

[raylawpc]

Good Analysis Ray-Law-PC

But the James J. Jeffries of 1902 would not have to worry so much about a Full-Round of
quickness in the Muhammad Ali of 1974.

Over a 25-Round bout, those later Round left hooks into the face and right-hand smashes
into the mid-section would numb Muhammad by Round 20.

This bout would be a 'drag-out' slow-paced Marathon, not a 1/4 Mile Drag Race.

Ali never went down from a body shot and took the best shots of Frazier and Foreman.

Actually, the Wepner knockdown was from a right to the body, and it was an official knockdown . . .

[raylawpc]

Personally

I don't think anybody thought Muhammad Ali was all that impressive from January 1973 and on.

Muhammad is not stopping a 27 year-old James J. Jeffries, even if he brought his Bazooka.

Personally,

I think Joe Frazier and George Foreman might have begged to differ with you.

[Goldust]

Actually, the Wepner knockdown was from a right to the body, and it was an official knockdown . . .

Even though it was an "official" knockdown, Ali went down because Wepner was clearly stepping on his foot. The body punch that he threw barely even landed and the ref made a crappy call.

[Goldust]

I don't hold the early pioneers from the transitional period from the London Prize ring rules to the Queensbury rules in nearly as high regard as old timers like Nat Fleischer did. I have a hard time buying that boxing peaked in the 20 years after the adoption of the Queensbury rules and then went promptly down the toilet as Fleischer maintained. I don't think that those early pioneers were the totally helpless stiffs that many/most current fans do either. I have boxing instructionals from the mid 1800's onwards so I think that I've got a pretty good grasp of the stylistic changes over the years and the style of the Jeffries era. Much of what we consider today as "modern" boxing was still under development then and in addition the rules and conditions were quite a bit different as well. There's a big difference between fighting in a 20 or more round bout, no mouthpiece, liberal interpretation of what constitutes a foul, and with 4-6 ounce gloves padded with horse hair vs. the now current rules/conditions.

Are we talking about a 25 round bout under 1974 rules or under 1902 rules? Are we talking about Jeffries fighting in 1974 but being born and trained in the modern era or are we taking the 1902 Jeffries and plopping him down in 1974? Are we talking about an Ali born and trained under 1800's conditions or taking a time machine and just transporting him back to 1902? In addition in 1902 fights were scored much differently than today. Typically only the referee judged the fight and it wasn't always done on a round by round basis. The fights were generally scored as a whole and how a fighter finished was more important than how they started. A boxer in those days could lose more rounds but win the decision (or at least manage a draw especially if they were the champion), if they finished very strongly over the final third of the fight and were still strong at the finish while their opponent was basically hanging on for dear life at the end. In many/most cases a black boxer fighting a white opponent essentially needed to knock them out to win.

By 1974 Ali was past his best, in 1902 Jeffries was in his prime.

Past prime Ali vs. prime Jeffries (both born in the 1800's, under 1902 rules/conditions): Jeffries was never the fastest starter in the world so Ali has some good rounds early, by the 5th round the largely stationary Ali is taking a one sided beating: Jeffries by stoppage round 10

Past prime Ali vs. prime Jeffries (1974 Ali transported back to 1902): Ali builds a clear lead early but simply doesn’t have the stamina to go 25 hard rounds. He wasn’t a huge puncher and if nothing else Jeffries could certainly take a pounding and they simply didn’t stop fights that quickly in 1902. By the 10th Ali is taking a beating along the ropes offering little in return. Jeffries by stoppage sometime between the 15th to 20th round.

Past prime Ali vs. prime Jeffries (both born in the modern era, under 1974 rules/conditions): By 1974 Ali no longer had the stamina to consistently fight for three full minutes and did way to much standing around/covering up along the ropes trying to steal rounds by flurrying over the final 30 seconds of the round. He just doesn’t have the punch to keep Jeffries off or the legs/stamina to keep away. By the 10th round the fight resembles Jeffries working over a heavy bag. Ali certainly could take a beating though. Jeffries by TKO sometime after the 10th round.

Past prime Ali vs. prime Jeffries (1902 Jeffries transported to 1974, under 1974 rules conditions, bout scheduled for 25 rounds): Ali hits Jeffries at will, however it’s hard to speculate how well he could/would hold up in a fight that went past the 15th round. I think that Jeffries biggest undoing would be the fact that they stopped fights much quicker by 1974 than they did in 1902. This would be a tale of two fights, Ali dominating early, Jeffries late, Jeffries could possibly steal the decision or get a late round stoppage with a strong finish over the final ten rounds, if he could hang in there past the 15th round without getting stopped that is.

Prime 1966-67 Ali vs. prime 1902 Jeffries: Regardless of the whether it’s held under 1902 or 1960’s rules I simply can’t envision Jeffries beating Ali. He had his hands full with the smaller, older, past prime Corbett who had no real punch to speak of and wasn’t the most durable guy in the world. The much smaller/older Fitzsimmons was able to hit him nearly at will in their second fight as well. Ali was bigger, hit harder and was considerably more durable than Corbett ever dreamed of. Under 1960’s rules, a 15 round bout, it’s simply no contest. Jeffries would fare better under 1902 conditions with the smaller gloves and longer fight of 25 rounds. But if it took him over 20 rounds to finally catch up with the older, smaller, Corbett, who gave him a boxing lesson for the better part of the fight, how is he possibly going to catch Ali? I just can’t see it happening, if the fight even lasted that long.

[keithmoonhangover]

Here it is,,,,,,,,,

'New York Times'

'James J. Jeffries Floors Muhmmad Ali With One Body-Blow, Ends The Gruesome War in Round 22'

James J. Jeffries with his face battered and bruised, and hopelessly behind on
points after 15-rounds, put forth a hard body attack in Round 16 and turned the
bout around, by slamming a stationary Muhammad Ali with thunderous punches.

As Muhammad Ali tried to rest his weary legs, the younger and stronger Jeffries worked
his way inside to slam hard smashes into Ali's body. By Round 19, Muhammad's body
was a bruised mess.

As Jeffries ripped away in Round 20, Ali's body went numb, as he was unable to move
while his back was welded to the Ropes. Muhammad was a 'sitting duck' for Jeffries
rib-crushing punches.

Jeffries switched his attack to Ali's head in Round 21, and slammed several tremendous
face-smashers, busting Muhammad's nose and breaking his jaw. The punches sent
Muhammad's mouthpiece out, and is sailed all the way out to the 10th Row with several
teeth inside the guard.

Somehow, Muhammad survived the Round while on his feet.

In the corner before Round 22, blood was flowing out of Muhammad's mouth like a water house
and his nose was squashed flat.

In Jeffries corner, his face was bruised like an over-ripe melon, and blood was gushing out of
the gash on his left cheekbone.

At first Ali's corner wanted to stop the fight, but Bundini Brown pushed his fighter off his stool, and
said - "Don't come back here, unless you knock him out."

You really do live in a fantasy world. Planet Duce must be a nice place to visit.

[HomicideHenry]

Corbett cut up Jeff for 18 rounds before the tide turned and Jeff kayoed him in the 21st. IMHO Corbett was a shade faster than Ali. Granted and providing the referees were the same as were in the early 20th century I can't see Ali stopping Jeffries. Think Frazier or Dempsey or Marciano, but taller and heavier and stronger and you had Jeffries.

[gilgamesh]

Corbett cut up Jeff for 18 rounds before the tide turned and Jeff kayoed him in the 21st. IMHO Corbett was a shade faster than Ali. Granted and providing the referees were the same as were in the early 20th century I can't see Ali stopping Jeffries. Think Frazier or Dempsey or Marciano, but taller and heavier and stronger and you had Jeffries.

Ali could whip Corbett and Jeffries in the same night...THAT'S RIGHT I SAID IT!!!

[HomicideHenry]

Corbett cut up Jeff for 18 rounds before the tide turned and Jeff kayoed him in the 21st. IMHO Corbett was a shade faster than Ali. Granted and providing the referees were the same as were in the early 20th century I can't see Ali stopping Jeffries. Think Frazier or Dempsey or Marciano, but taller and heavier and stronger and you had Jeffries.

Ali could whip Corbett and Jeffries in the same night...THAT'S RIGHT I SAID IT!!!

In an ironic sense that reminds me of old timers in the 60s who said Sullivan could of beaten Ali and Frazier, and have enough to decision Joe Louis. Both your argument and theirs lack any real founding but personal preference.