Undisputed & Lineal Heavyweight championship

[danundisputed]

Dear Boxrec users.

I have a question about the Undisputed & Lineal Heavyweight championship.

When Lennox Lewis fought Rahman the 1st time: Lewis was at that time the WBC, IBF, IBO, Lineal Champion, in the introduction of the fight they still recognized him as the Undisputed Champ
He didn't held the WBA belt anymore cause he was stripped of the title.
Right?
The statistics on wikipedia says that Lewis was undisputed champ from November 13, 1999 til April 29, 2000.
So how can he still be undisputed without holding the WBA title? Or did he stay undisputed because he didn't lose the WBA title in the Ring?
The question is when exactly started and ended his reign as undisputed ch.?

Next curiosity. Rahman beats Lewis and wins the WBC, IBF, IBO, Lineal Champion titles. After the fight the ring announcer names him "the new undisputed champion of the world" !
How can it be? The WBA title wasn't on the line.

Next curiosity. After Rahman's win over Lewis I've seen in the Ring Magazine I think September 2001, that Rahman was presented a Ring Magazine belt.
I wonder because at that time Lewis was no Ring Champ and I couldn't see any statistics that the fight was for The Ring title too.
After a communication with the manufacture of The Ring belts, they've told me that Rahman was a Ring Champion.
The question is, was The Ring title vacant and Rahman won it? When exactly started and ended his reign as a Ring Champion?
question is when exactly started and ended his reign as undisputed ch.?[/b]

Next. Rahman vs Lewis 2

Rahman is the Lineal, Undisputed, The Ring, WBC, IBF & IBO champion. Lewis wins and becomes the new Lineal, WBC, IBF & IBO champion.
Or did he become the Undisputed & The Ring champion too? Statistics say that Lewis was The Ring champ from 2002-2004

Please help me to clear that confusion

Thanks a lot, I appreciate

[orbtastic]

Undisputed should ordinarily be a fairly simple concept, given the origin of the word.

I think once you start introducing the IBO and WBO into the equation, it's always going to be disputed.

[gilgamesh]

Undisputed should ordinarily be a fairly simple concept, given the origin of the word.

I think once you start introducing the IBO and WBO into the equation, it's always going to be disputed.

Indeed. I'm sure in that case they were saying it like "Undisputed Champion" because there was no doubt in anybody's mind that Lennox Lewis was THE CHAMPION, and anyone else simply had a belt.

I don't even acknowledge Beltholders as Champions personally. I save the term Champions for the few that I feel have legitimately earned the honor and the rest are "Titleholders/Contenders" to me, and nothing more.

Until they've become the true Champion all title defenses of their paper belt are null and void in my mind. They're just fights. I do count them though if at some point during their reign they are able to fight and prove themselves the true Champion of their weight class. There are several guys in the game today though that are 2 or 3x "Champions" that have never been a legitimate Champion.

Boxing fans owe it to themselves and to the sport to stop acknowledging these joke titles as legitimate.

[SteveO]

The practice of awarding 'Ring' magazine championship belts began in 1922 with the reign of Jack Dempsey and they were awarded to all future lineal champions until 1979. Although the magazine continued to recognise lineal champions until 1990 they stopped awarding their belts after 1979 (for a reason I can't remember) and began awarding them again in April 2002. Lennox Lewis became the first heavyweight recipient of the new 'Ring' belt after he beat Vitali Klitschko in 2003. So, therefore Hasim Rahman never actually possessed a 'Ring' magazine belt.

[dempseyfire]

Dear Boxrec users.

I have a question about the Undisputed & Lineal Heavyweight championship.

When Lennox Lewis fought Rahman the 1st time: Lewis was at that time the WBC, IBF, IBO, Lineal Champion, in the introduction of the fight they still recognized him as the Undisputed Champ
He didn't held the WBA belt anymore cause he was stripped of the title.
Right?
The statistics on wikipedia says that Lewis was undisputed champ from November 13, 1999 til April 29, 2000.
So how can he still be undisputed without holding the WBA title? Or did he stay undisputed because he didn't lose the WBA title in the Ring?
The question is when exactly started and ended his reign as undisputed ch.?

Next curiosity. Rahman beats Lewis and wins the WBC, IBF, IBO, Lineal Champion titles. After the fight the ring announcer names him "the new undisputed champion of the world" !
How can it be? The WBA title wasn't on the line.

Next curiosity. After Rahman's win over Lewis I've seen in the Ring Magazine I think September 2001, that Rahman was presented a Ring Magazine belt.
I wonder because at that time Lewis was no Ring Champ and I couldn't see any statistics that the fight was for The Ring title too.
After a communication with the manufacture of The Ring belts, they've told me that Rahman was a Ring Champion.
The question is, was The Ring title vacant and Rahman won it? When exactly started and ended his reign as a Ring Champion?
question is when exactly started and ended his reign as undisputed ch.?[/b]

Next. Rahman vs Lewis 2

Rahman is the Lineal, Undisputed, The Ring, WBC, IBF & IBO champion. Lewis wins and becomes the new Lineal, WBC, IBF & IBO champion.
Or did he become the Undisputed & The Ring champion too? Statistics say that Lewis was The Ring champ from 2002-2004

Please help me to clear that confusion

Thanks a lot, I appreciate

He was undisputed because instead of defending vs John Ruiz, who was regarded as a joke opponent, he opted to make more money and fight the #1 contender Michael Grant. Yes in hindsight Ruiz ended up having a better career than Grant, but in any case it was pure ABC sanctioning body BS.

[danundisputed]

Thanks for all the comments, but my problem isn't solved yet.
Here's a little list of possible Title reigns

Lennox Lewis

Undisputed
November 13, 1999 - April 29, 2000 (Wiki)
November 13, 1999 - April 22, 2001 (unified/ announced as undisputed champ)
November 17, 2001 – September, 2002 (unified)

The Ring
2002 – February 6, 2004 (Wiki)
2000 - April 22, 2001, November 17, 2001-February 6, 2004 (information from manufacture of The Ring belt)

I've also sent my request to the office of Lennox Lewis

Hasim Rahman

Undisputed
April 22, 2001 – November 17, 2001 (announced as new undisputed champ)

The Ring
April 22, 2001 – November 17, 2001 (I've contacted the manufacture of The Ring belts, and was told that Rahman got a Ring belt awarded, it's proved with photo and a document for the belt production.
I wonder about Rahman being a Ring Champion cause offficial stats say belts were given out again in 2002. And Rahman's "reign" as The Ring champ can't be found anywhere!

So more confusion.
Who knows the truth?
Looking forward to the answers

[SteveO]

No boxer was awarded a 'Ring' belt between 1979 and 2002.
I suppose it's 'possible' that Rahman was given a retrospective belt sometime after 2002 but I've never heard about it or seen a photo. If you have any photographic evidence please post it here.
Have you tried contacting the magazine directly?

[danundisputed]

@steve O

Yes Steve that's what I thought too. But look at the photos.
One is from the belt presentation from Ring Mag Dec. 2001, the other one is from Newport Marketing the belt manufacture.
I also have a document for the belt production by Nigel Collins.
I've contacted Mr. Rosenthal chief editor of The Ring and he said he don't think that Rahman won the belt.
Have a look

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =3&theater
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =3&theater

Still no solution, I hope anybody knows when the reign started & ended, and why it's in no statistic listed

[SteveO]

Sorry, the links don't work for me - I'm not allowed to view the photos :-(
Hasim Rahman wasn't the champion in December 2001 - Lennox Lewis had regained the title from him.
Another thought... Maybe the magazine had a belt made for Rahman but when he lost the rematch to Lewis they didn't present it to him.

[danundisputed]

@ Steve O:

Sorry i can't post images,
but if you want the photos of Rahman with the Ring belt send me your email

[SteveO]

I have PM'd you

[danundisputed]

@ Steve O:
I've emailed you the photos

[HomicideHenry]

Technically, the "undisputed/lineal" title ended with Gene Tunney. Because no one 'beat the man, to be the man'. However, it pretty much is just a mythical crown/status as to whoever is the best man around--- or in today's world, whoever holds the most trinkets/toys/titles. Lewis lost his lineal title when he retired--- it passed on to Vitali Klitschko, til he retired (the first time)--- then it passed on to his brother Vladimir Klitschko, who has held it since; and being that Vitali has just recently retired, being with the most belts (Vladimir) he is the only heavyweight champion we have at present time so I reckon to the hardcore fans who are hell bent on technicalities and details, Vladimir is now officially appointed the lineal champion since Vitali is out of the picture for good.

[hugman]

I have just posted my idea of Lineal World Champions; you might be interested in a fresh approach

See Barry Hugman's Lineal World Boxing Champions

[SteveO]

Thank you Barry.
I don't see how Anthony Joshua can be classed as a lineal champion though, Tyson Fury never officially retired.
He has been unable to fight mainly because his boxing licence has been suspended pending a (much delayed) hearing. I think we should await the outcome of that.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

The lineal title is woefully outdated. It's nothing but opinion and I wouldn't trade a grilled cheese for a ring belt.

[Kalan]

Depends.. If the grilled cheese were made from Valveeta and Wonder Bread, I'd take the Ring Belt.