Why did Hagler fight Leonard the way he did?

[yancey]

And if they had fought again in 5 months time, I'd pick Leonard to win again because Hagler wasn't going to be any faster.

it was a childish and terrible move of hagler
to rather retire than go for the rematch. i for
one think he would have won by close decision,
simply because judges would not be so much
impressed by ray's little tricks this time around
and marvellous would not opt for a pretty stupid
way of opening the fight.

the third would have gone down in history as an
epic battle.

You reckon Leonard was gung-ho on giving Hagler a rematch?

I don't.

[yancey]

I watched this last night.....I have always said that Leonard won this...but I believe now that I am not correct.

Hagler lost this. But lose it he did. It did not have to happen that way, and Ray was lucky to have Hagler coming in so overconfident. This fight could not have been won by Ray...(at least the way it played out) if Hagler had not given away the first two rounds....if he simply would have come in serious as a judge, I don't see how Ray could have put the numbers together later when the rounds became very very competitive. Still would have been respectable show by Ray....but not a win.

Hagler owns the outcome....and the outcome is/was legit. But it appears to me that it was Hagler's to lose, and he made a go of that aspect. I can see why Hagler fans complain so much....but I don't see how they can look at the fight the way it actually played out, and think it was anything more than a very competitive fight that ended up going one way rather than the other.....it was close to a draw...thus the split decision.

But my older eyes now tell me that it did not have to be that way. Hagler may well be comfortable in the knowledge that he COULD have won, but he can't look back at that fight and think he DID win.

That outcome is all on Marvin....

Astute analysis, Buzz.

[Ambling Alp II]

And if they had fought again in 5 months time, I'd pick Leonard to win again because Hagler wasn't going to be any faster.

it was a childish and terrible move of hagler
to rather retire than go for the rematch. i for
one think he would have won by close decision,
simply because judges would not be so much
impressed by ray's little tricks this time around
and marvellous would not opt for a pretty stupid
way of opening the fight.

the third would have gone down in history as an
epic battle.

You reckon Leonard was gung-ho on giving Hagler a rematch?

I don't.

Hagler certainly wasn't. :P

[raylawpc]

I watched this last night.....I have always said that Leonard won this...but I believe now that I am not correct.

Hagler lost this. But lose it he did. It did not have to happen that way, and Ray was lucky to have Hagler coming in so overconfident. This fight could not have been won by Ray...(at least the way it played out) if Hagler had not given away the first two rounds....if he simply would have come in serious as a judge, I don't see how Ray could have put the numbers together later when the rounds became very very competitive. Still would have been respectable show by Ray....but not a win.

Hagler owns the outcome....and the outcome is/was legit. But it appears to me that it was Hagler's to lose, and he made a go of that aspect. I can see why Hagler fans complain so much....but I don't see how they can look at the fight the way it actually played out, and think it was anything more than a very competitive fight that ended up going one way rather than the other.....it was close to a draw...thus the split decision.

But my older eyes now tell me that it did not have to be that way. Hagler may well be comfortable in the knowledge that he COULD have won, but he can't look back at that fight and think he DID win.

That outcome is all on Marvin....

Astute analysis, Buzz.

Except he's wrong. Hagler won 7-5 on my card.

[gilgamesh]

I watched this last night.....I have always said that Leonard won this...but I believe now that I am not correct.

Hagler lost this. But lose it he did. It did not have to happen that way, and Ray was lucky to have Hagler coming in so overconfident. This fight could not have been won by Ray...(at least the way it played out) if Hagler had not given away the first two rounds....if he simply would have come in serious as a judge, I don't see how Ray could have put the numbers together later when the rounds became very very competitive. Still would have been respectable show by Ray....but not a win.

Hagler owns the outcome....and the outcome is/was legit. But it appears to me that it was Hagler's to lose, and he made a go of that aspect. I can see why Hagler fans complain so much....but I don't see how they can look at the fight the way it actually played out, and think it was anything more than a very competitive fight that ended up going one way rather than the other.....it was close to a draw...thus the split decision.

But my older eyes now tell me that it did not have to be that way. Hagler may well be comfortable in the knowledge that he COULD have won, but he can't look back at that fight and think he DID win.

That outcome is all on Marvin....

Astute analysis, Buzz.

Except he's wrong. Hagler won 7-5 on my card.

114-114 draw for me. Could've gone either way, and it went Ray's. Regardless of which side of the fence you're on, it was razor thin. Can't believe that all these years later, a fight like this is still look at as a robbery by some as close as it was.

I have seen fights where a guy won much more clearly than anybody won here, and had it taken away from him without anybody batting an eye, and yet this one remains so controversial 25+ years later.

I'll never get all the controversy personally. Could've gone either way, it went Ray's. That's all there is to it.

[Giancarlo]

I watched this last night.....I have always said that Leonard won this...but I believe now that I am not correct.

Hagler lost this. But lose it he did. It did not have to happen that way, and Ray was lucky to have Hagler coming in so overconfident. This fight could not have been won by Ray...(at least the way it played out) if Hagler had not given away the first two rounds....if he simply would have come in serious as a judge, I don't see how Ray could have put the numbers together later when the rounds became very very competitive. Still would have been respectable show by Ray....but not a win.

Hagler owns the outcome....and the outcome is/was legit. But it appears to me that it was Hagler's to lose, and he made a go of that aspect. I can see why Hagler fans complain so much....but I don't see how they can look at the fight the way it actually played out, and think it was anything more than a very competitive fight that ended up going one way rather than the other.....it was close to a draw...thus the split decision.

But my older eyes now tell me that it did not have to be that way. Hagler may well be comfortable in the knowledge that he COULD have won, but he can't look back at that fight and think he DID win.

That outcome is all on Marvin....

Astute analysis, Buzz.

Except he's wrong. Hagler won 7-5 on my card.

Which 7 rounds did you give to Hagler Tom?

[raylawpc]

Which 7 rounds did you give to Hagler Tom?

I don't remember exactly - it was too long ago. As I recall, I think I gave Hagler five of the last six rounds. I might have scored it 6-5-1, but I don't think so because I recall thinking after the 11th round that I hoped Hagler would win the 12th, or I'd have to score it a draw.

[stevedoc]

hagler lost not just because he was slow to start but he lost it at the end in the 11th when he should of up the pressure he gave the round away ,that was when he lost it for me ..............

[BoxBuzz]

Ray.......are you sure I'm wrong on this one? Cuz I had my eye focused the whole fight this time.

I say we ask Il Duce to settle this one, once and for all.

I can't see how Marvin whittles his way back to a win from those early rounds...

I do think that Marvin had more left......but should never have "played".

This is the first fight I ever saw Marvin fight, when he wasn't strictly business for the entire fight.

And if you are a Marvin fan, the pain must be critical. Because I really do now believe that he COULD have won..... And I'm never a fan of that sort of outcome.

There are only a few here that seem to hold the notion that on that night Ray was the better fighter....I have left that behind.....I now believe that Ray was simply the winning fighter...on that night. And ok...pound for pound perhaps the better fighter. But shame on Marvin for not taking his work fully seriously....he was not true to himself.

Joe Frazier's mentality is what he needed that night.....Or just his own mentality from any other day on the job. Bad time to trot out a new act.

[yancey]

I watched this last night.....I have always said that Leonard won this...but I believe now that I am not correct.

Hagler lost this. But lose it he did. It did not have to happen that way, and Ray was lucky to have Hagler coming in so overconfident. This fight could not have been won by Ray...(at least the way it played out) if Hagler had not given away the first two rounds....if he simply would have come in serious as a judge, I don't see how Ray could have put the numbers together later when the rounds became very very competitive. Still would have been respectable show by Ray....but not a win.

Hagler owns the outcome....and the outcome is/was legit. But it appears to me that it was Hagler's to lose, and he made a go of that aspect. I can see why Hagler fans complain so much....but I don't see how they can look at the fight the way it actually played out, and think it was anything more than a very competitive fight that ended up going one way rather than the other.....it was close to a draw...thus the split decision.

But my older eyes now tell me that it did not have to be that way. Hagler may well be comfortable in the knowledge that he COULD have won, but he can't look back at that fight and think he DID win.

That outcome is all on Marvin....

Astute analysis, Buzz.

Except he's wrong. Hagler won 7-5 on my card.

My "astute analysis" bit was less on who actually won the fight and much more on BB's point that Marvin "owns the outcome" conclusion.

Hagler should have been a warrior that night.

[BoxBuzz]

I'm good with anyone saying that it was close and could have gone either way. I think that would have been giving a bit much back to Marvin.....just because it appeared you COULD have, does not mean it should be given to you. But if you score it closely for Marvin...who can really fault you.

I see it the other way. But when I looked at it with no sound, and no commentators spoiling it, I have to say that though Ray appeared to outpoint him, I don't think it had to be that way. The critical rounds that Marvin seemingly could have put in the bank were wasted....and with it his chances of a clear cut victory.

[raylawpc]

Ray.......are you sure I'm wrong on this one?

Pretty sure. I would have scored it for Leonard otherwise.

But it was a close fight, and I don't really have a problem with those who scored it for Leonard (although I think they were wrong, and gave Leonard some rounds because he did better than anyone expected him to do. "Doing better than expected" does not equal "winning.")

[BoxBuzz]

Touche'

And like I say...through my older eyes....Marvin now looks better than the last time I viewed this fight.

Next time you watch it...look for Ray to improve.

[raylawpc]

Touche'

And like I say...through my older eyes....Marvin now looks better than the last time I viewed this fight.

Next time you watch it...look for Ray to improve.

I don't re-score fights Buzz. I only score fights that I see in real time. The judges don't get the benefit of hindsight or "expert" commentary - like yours - so why should I?

[man]

it was a childish and terrible move of hagler
to rather retire than go for the rematch. i for
one think he would have won by close decision,
simply because judges would not be so much
impressed by ray's little tricks this time around
and marvellous would not opt for a pretty stupid
way of opening the fight.

the third would have gone down in history as an
epic battle.

You reckon Leonard was gung-ho on giving Hagler a rematch?

I don't.

i figure if marvin had been all over the place in
the days after the fight demanding a rematch he
could have build substantial pressure on leonard.

i think he withdrew in a shell being disgusted with
leonard, boxing and the world in general. of course
ray had no interest in a rematch by himself, he
psyched marvin out as he did with roberto and he
was not the type being super fair to opponents.

marvin lost the fight before it started. he was
playing ray's game from the get go, including his
decision to box orthodox. he wanted to beat ray on
his own playing field and that was a really bad move.
he tried to beat leonard by denying who he was. of
course it is easier said than done to be a butcher in
front of millions facing bambi.

i think it is like with roberto: one of the missing
rematches in boxing history that would have been
needed to decide who is the better man.

btw why was there no rematch clause in the contract?

[Syntax Error]

it was a childish and terrible move of hagler
to rather retire than go for the rematch. i for
one think he would have won by close decision,
simply because judges would not be so much
impressed by ray's little tricks this time around
and marvellous would not opt for a pretty stupid
way of opening the fight.

the third would have gone down in history as an
epic battle.

You reckon Leonard was gung-ho on giving Hagler a rematch?

I don't.

i figure if marvin had been all over the place in
the days after the fight demanding a rematch he
could have build substantial pressure on leonard.

i think he withdrew in a shell being disgusted with
leonard, boxing and the world in general. of course
ray had no interest in a rematch by himself, he
psyched marvin out as he did with roberto and he
was not the type being super fair to opponents.

marvin lost the fight before it started. he was
playing ray's game from the get go, including his
decision to box orthodox. he wanted to beat ray on
his own playing field and that was a really bad move.
he tried to beat leonard by denying who he was. of
course it is easier said than done to be a butcher in
front of millions facing bambi.

i think it is like with roberto: one of the missing
rematches in boxing history that would have been
needed to decide who is the better man.

btw why was there no rematch clause in the contract?

This post is 100% correct.

Leonard totally outpsyched Hagler & deep down, I believe Marvellous Marvin knows it.

[BoxBuzz]

Touche'

And like I say...through my older eyes....Marvin now looks better than the last time I viewed this fight.

Next time you watch it...look for Ray to improve.

I don't re-score fights Buzz. I only score fights that I see in real time. The judges don't get the benefit of hindsight or "expert" commentary - like yours - so why should I?

Roger that....and I am SURELY no expert.....just an eccentric enthusiast. The topic of boxing simply makes me smile.

You are a first class contributor, and I always appreciate your comments. Real time is all there is.....it's very odd about boxing that we keep going back....don't see this as often in other sports........or do we?

[Ambling Alp II]

Finding those exact 7 rounds that you could legitimately give to Hagler has been so elusive over the years....

[BoxBuzz]

Alp I agree, the only "aha" I seem to have had in my last viewing is that I get a sense that Hagler could not or would not find the gas peddle. His confidence and body language was there, but his follow through seemed stilted, or arrogant which ever you prefer. Someone here has assigned to simply being slow....but I see evidence of his speed....just not for a prolonged enough time.

Anyway.....I found it worth another look.

[raylawpc]

Finding those exact 7 rounds that you could legitimately give to Hagler has been so elusive over the years....

Pretty easy, actually. I found them . . .

[Seamus]

After Leonard swept the first 4 rounds, Hagler would had to have taken the last 8 by a 6-1-1 margin just to eek out a 1 pt win. That certainly didn't happen and Ray won the fight fair and square.

[Ambling Alp II]

After Leonard swept the first 4 rounds, Hagler would had to have taken the last 8 by a 6-1-1 margin just to eek out a 1 pt win. That certainly didn't happen and Ray won the fight fair and square.

Pretty much what I have been saying for years. The first 4 are very easy to score for Leonard because Hagler did almost nothing except for standing around trying to look mean.

When people actually name the specfic rounds that they gave Hagler then you see they had to give him at least two rounds that he did clearly lost.

It was a competitive fight; but not one that was particularly close. Leonard won fair and square. There have been many, many closer fights than this.

[Giancarlo]

Finding those exact 7 rounds that you could legitimately give to Hagler has been so elusive over the years....

Pretty easy, actually. I found them . . .

Yeah, but which ones were they?

[yancey]

Before game 7 of the the 1971 NBA Eastern finals, Kevin Loughery of the Bullets went to all of his teammates in the locker room and told them to be a "g.. d... animal".

That is what someone should have told Hagler before the fight.

[gilgamesh]

Before game 7 of the the 1971 NBA Eastern finals, Kevin Loughery of the Bullets went to all of his teammates in the locker room and told them to be a "g.. d... animal".

That is what someone should have told Hagler before the fight.

I'm sure that's what most people expected he'd do. That's definitely what I would've expected if I had been alive at the time to be following the sport the way I do now.