Earnie Shavers v. Nikolay Valuev

[Vladimir5555]

Who takes it?

[drunkenpiper36]

As much as I absolutely can't stand to watch Nikolay Valuev fight, I don't know how Earnie Shavers is going to beat him. He isn't much quicker or more mobile than Nikolay and would be giving up over a foot in height, plus 100 lbs in weight. Out boxing him is virtually out of the question. Scoring a knockout is plausible but I don't think Valuev was ever floored in some 50 fights, and Earnie would have a hard time getting any flush shots on the chin. Also, Shaver's chin wasn't the greatest and his stamina was shaky. I'm thinking Valuev by decision or late stoppage in a fight where the fans wish they could have a refund on their money.

[BoxBuzz]

drunkenpiper36 has had his say.

[gilgamesh]

I'd have to go with Valuev by decision or late stoppage as well. I don't think Shavers would be able to knock him out, and eventually the enormous size disadvantage would just be too much.

[BoxBuzz]

Haye almost floored him. But fell short.

Haye was pretty athletic and was taking some leaping shots.

I'm not sure Valuev holds Shavers back, or avoids a KO.

I think I picked Valuev over Tua a while back in a snore fest. I'm less sure on this one, but Valuev would be there to be hit....and not sure Shavers could miss Valuev's body. Entertaining to ponder this one.

[polecateddy]

Shavers to gas out in around 9. It should be noted that Valuev had crippling joint degeneration issues in the latter part of career, so should not be judged on say the Haye fight.

[Ambling Alp II]

I am really surprised at what I have been reading. Shavers had his weaknesses, but he was a much better fighter than Valuev. Valuev didn't have a big punch, and didn't have that high of a workrate. He probably would not be able to stop Shavers.

Shavers was an unpredictable fighter and you never knew what would happen. Shavers threw a lot of punches, was possibly the hardest hitting fighter of all time and was facing an opponent with little defense. There is a good chance that he would chop Valuev down and stop him in the mid-rounds.

Would Shavers "gas out"? I guess it's a possibility. However he did prove he could go 15 rounds.

[polecateddy]

I am really surprised at what I have been reading. Shavers had his weaknesses, but he was a much better fighter than Valuev. Valuev didn't have a big punch, and didn't have that high of a workrate. He probably would not be able to stop Shavers.

Shavers was an unpredictable fighter and you never knew what would happen. Shavers threw a lot of punches, was possibly the hardest hitting fighter of all time and was facing an opponent with little defense. There is a good chance that he would chop Valuev down and stop him in the mid-rounds.

Would Shavers "gas out"? I guess it's a possibility. However he did prove he could go 15 rounds.

15 rounds might even suit Valuev. Opponents found it a struggle from a cardio standpoint to go 12 with the big guy. And Shavers stamina was a best average, and sometimes poor - see the Cobb fight.

[drunkenpiper36]

I am really surprised at what I have been reading. Shavers had his weaknesses, but he was a much better fighter than Valuev. Valuev didn't have a big punch, and didn't have that high of a workrate. He probably would not be able to stop Shavers.

Shavers was an unpredictable fighter and you never knew what would happen. Shavers threw a lot of punches, was possibly the hardest hitting fighter of all time and was facing an opponent with little defense. There is a good chance that he would chop Valuev down and stop him in the mid-rounds.

Would Shavers "gas out"? I guess it's a possibility. However he did prove he could go 15 rounds.

For all his shortcomings, Valuev was difficult to hit flush in the face because of his height and reach. He had a pretty good jab as well, and was never stopped nor even floored in something like 50 pro fights. Granted his opposition was for the most part crap and he rarely if ever looked impressive. But Shavers would have to work his ass off in order to outpoint him or to force a stoppage and had neither the stamina nor speed to do it. He was also as limited in the skill department as Nikolay and if we're honest, his defense wasn't much better either. The only thing that leaves is a lucky punch, which is possible, but its not something I'd bet any money on, especially against a guy that's never been decked or badly hurt.

[BoxBuzz]

Who was the biggest puncher Valuev faced? Haye?

[Ambling Alp II]

Maybe. Certainly no one remotely close to Shavers in the power department. Yes the height advantage would help Valuev from getting hit flush in the head often, but Shavers is still going to get some good shots in. He had so much power that he wouldn't need to land something 100% clean.

Shavers was much more aggressive. He typically threw many more punches than Valuev. Shavers didn't have great handspeed, but it was faster than Valuev. He didn't have a great defense, but it was better than Valuev. If he doesn't manage to stop him, he certainly could win on points.

The chances of Valuev winning on stoppage is not good. Despite his size, he didn't have much power. Shavers could take that.
The chances of Valuev winning on points is even more unlikley. Since Shavers would be throwing many more punches, and landing at a higher %, Shavers is going land many more punches.

[Tuan_Jim]

Wobbled by Haye and Nobles, staggering around like a drunk after Bidenko. Slow, immobile, useless.

Shavers KO1.

[drunkenpiper36]

Who was the biggest puncher Valuev faced? Haye?

The man you just mentioned was a skilled, mobile and busy opponent with a south paw style and reasonable stamina. Let's also not forget that he fought a 36 year old Nikolay who had been off for a full year and was in the last fight of his career. The outcome was still close. Raw power isn't everything. And there were plenty of occasions in Earnie's career where pure power wasn't enough to save him. Tex Cobb beat him by virtually doing nothing accept getting the sh*t kicked out of him until Earnie wore out. Of course who knows if Valuev can take a shot like Tex could, but I suspect it would be a similar situation, minus Nikolay getting hit as often due to his height. Ambling Alp may have a point that more activity on Shaver's part may be key to winning a decision. The back fall of that however, is that the need to work that hard could lead to gassing later, which is a big part of my argument.

[Tuan_Jim]

If you think David Haye was 'busy' and a 'southpaw' you cannot have seen that fight, or any David Haye fight ever.

Haye/Valuev is infamous for its lack of action, and Haye's minimal punch output. It is one of the worst heavyweight title fights ever. Also, he is an orthodox boxer, not a southpaw.

On top of that, you're defending Valuev's abysmal performance against Haye because he was old, while singling out a performance by an old Earnie Shavers against Tex Cobb to use as evidence against the Acorn.

You really are all over the place here. Shavers KO1 Valuev.

[drunkenpiper36]

If you think David Haye was 'busy' and a 'southpaw' you cannot have seen that fight, or any David Haye fight ever.

Haye/Valuev is infamous for its lack of action, and Haye's minimal punch output. It is one of the worst heavyweight title fights ever. Also, he is an orthodox boxer, not a southpaw.

On top of that, you're defending Valuev's abysmal performance against Haye because he was old, while singling out a performance by an old Earnie Shavers against Tex Cobb to use as evidence against the Acorn.

You really are all over the place here. Shavers KO1 Valuev.

Youre right. I stand corrected on Haye being a south paw and the slow action of his fight with Valuev. But Earnie KO 1 Valuev? Seriously?

[Bricks]

Valuev was very poor compared to the era of the 70s I honestly can't fathom as anyone having earned losing and this supposed defence and jab.hunger was 6ft 5 and had a better jab,earnie massacred him in 2. The freakish height wouldn't faze earnie earnie would aim at the chest and heart and pulverized the arms and body.ko 8

[polecateddy]

Shavers couldn't do a thing with Cobb, who sort of was a small version of Valuev. Unless you retro-geeks are now suggesting Cobb was better than the big Russian, then perhaps you'll have to concede that Shavers would run out of ideas and run out if gas. Especially if he steamed in there looking for the quick win.

[SamWise72]

Haye is not a busy fighter; faster than Earnie, sure, and can throw a lot of punches in a spurt when he tries, but probably doesn't thrown more per round than Earnie. I think the big thing here is strength; Valuev won most of his fights by being a big lump and leaning on his opponents, wearing them out and keeping them off him. Haye won by being mobile and accurate; in and out. With Earnie, keeping him off is not as simple as being big; he was super strong, and I don't think Valuev is going to be able to stop him coming in, nor do I think he can take the hammers to the body. Earnie is going to tire, but I think Valuev will tire faster, and if Earn lands on the chin, he's going.

[drunkenpiper36]

I think we should all at least agree that neither of these guys were supermen much less masters of the sweet science. Valuev was slow, unimpressive, and lacking in power for a man of his size. Shavers was relatively small by comparison, had a shaky chin, poor stamina, and wasn't very mobile or busy for a smaller guy. Valuev barely squeaked by aging versions of John Ruiz, Larry Donald and Evander Holyfield, while Shavers was beaten by Bob Stallings and Ko'd in one round by Jerry Quarry while being more or less in his prime. I mean losing to Quarry was nothing to be ashamed of, but getting sparked in one wasn't very flattering. Some here have suggested that Shavers would hammer the body, arms, and whatever to a stoppage. Some like myself have eluded to Valuev outlasting Earnie enroute to a decision or stoppage. Frankly I don't think its written in stone one way or the other. I just see valuev being too big and durable for a much smaller man with a bad track record of gassing out to just hammer his way to victory. Earnie hit harder than almost anybody. But he wasn't Joe Louis when it came to composite punching over the long haul. There's more to just raw power in these sorts of match ups. Now if this were an argument about who was the better fighter, better puncher, more exciting attraction, etc, etc. I'd give it to Earnie Shavers. But head to head matchups on paper and in casual conversation don't always pan out the way we'd like them too in the ring.

[polecateddy]

I think we should all at least agree that neither of these guys were supermen much less masters of the sweet science. Valuev was slow, unimpressive, and lacking in power for a man of his size. Shavers was relatively small by comparison, had a shaky chin, poor stamina, and wasn't very mobile or busy for a smaller guy. Valuev barely squeaked by aging versions of John Ruiz, Larry Donald and Evander Holyfield, while Shavers was beaten by Bob Stallings and Ko'd in one round by Jerry Quarry while being more or less in his prime. I mean losing to Quarry was nothing to be ashamed of, but getting sparked in one wasn't very flattering. Some here have suggested that Shavers would hammer the body, arms, and whatever to a stoppage. Some like myself have eluded to Valuev outlasting Earnie enroute to a decision or stoppage. Frankly I don't think its written in stone one way or the other. I just see valuev being too big and durable for a much smaller man with a bad track record of gassing out to just hammer his way to victory. Earnie hit harder than almost anybody. But he wasn't Joe Louis when it came to composite punching over the long haul. There's more to just raw power in these sorts of match ups. Now if this were an argument about who was the better fighter, better puncher, more exciting attraction, etc, etc. I'd give it to Earnie Shavers. But head to head matchups on paper and in casual conversation don't always pan out the way we'd like them too in the ring.

At the end of the day Valuev could stop chinny heavies. Ettiene was stopped in 3. Even usually durable fighters like Vidoz got stopped in 9. The report I recall from Boxing News is that although Vidoz found Valuev easy to find, he got exhausted punching what was basically an immovable object. Frankly the big guy could pace himself excellently, and never appeared unduly hurt or exhausted in any of his fights. Yet somehow Shavers can do what frankly better fighters failed to do according to this thread?!

[drunkenpiper36]

At the end of the day Valuev could stop chinny heavies. Ettiene was stopped in 3. Even usually durable fighters like Vidoz got stopped in 9. The report I recall from Boxing News is that although Vidoz found Valuev easy to find, he got exhausted punching what was basically an immovable object. Frankly the big guy could pace himself excellently, and never appeared unduly hurt or exhausted in any of his fights. Yet somehow Shavers can do what frankly better fighters failed to do according to this thread?!

I don't know if I'd claim that Paolo Vidoz or Clifford Etiene were better fighters than Earnie Shavers. But I see your point and agree.

[polecateddy]

At the end of the day Valuev could stop chinny heavies. Ettiene was stopped in 3. Even usually durable fighters like Vidoz got stopped in 9. The report I recall from Boxing News is that although Vidoz found Valuev easy to find, he got exhausted punching what was basically an immovable object. Frankly the big guy could pace himself excellently, and never appeared unduly hurt or exhausted in any of his fights. Yet somehow Shavers can do what frankly better fighters failed to do according to this thread?!

I don't know if I'd claim that Paolo Vidoz or Clifford Etiene were better fighters than Earnie Shavers. But I see your point and agree.

I'm not an expert on Valuev, but there was a period of time where he was improving and seemingly punching harder and more correctly. However during his title reign chronic joint injuries started to kick in. The truth is he gets judged for a lot of his latter fights, such as against Holyfield and Haye, when the guy was basically walking wounded. Why else do you think there has not been even a sniff of a comeback, despite lucrative offers in the past from the Vitali camp. At his peak he could handle Shavers, end of story.

[drunkenpiper36]

At the end of the day Valuev could stop chinny heavies. Ettiene was stopped in 3. Even usually durable fighters like Vidoz got stopped in 9. The report I recall from Boxing News is that although Vidoz found Valuev easy to find, he got exhausted punching what was basically an immovable object. Frankly the big guy could pace himself excellently, and never appeared unduly hurt or exhausted in any of his fights. Yet somehow Shavers can do what frankly better fighters failed to do according to this thread?!

I don't know if I'd claim that Paolo Vidoz or Clifford Etiene were better fighters than Earnie Shavers. But I see your point and agree.

I'm not an expert on Valuev, but there was a period of time where he was improving and seemingly punching harder and more correctly. However during his title reign chronic joint injuries started to kick in. The truth is he gets judged for a lot of his latter fights, such as against Holyfield and Haye, when the guy was basically walking wounded. Why else do you think there has not been even a sniff of a comeback, despite lucrative offers in the past from the Vitali camp. At his peak he could handle Shavers, end of story.

True. If we study some of his earlier performances, he was certainly looking better from about 2004 to 2006, than he was beyond that. I'd favor Valuev to beat Shavers.

[SamWise72]

I think we should all at least agree that neither of these guys were supermen much less masters of the sweet science. Valuev was slow, unimpressive, and lacking in power for a man of his size. Shavers was relatively small by comparison, had a shaky chin, poor stamina, and wasn't very mobile or busy for a smaller guy. Valuev barely squeaked by aging versions of John Ruiz, Larry Donald and Evander Holyfield, while Shavers was beaten by Bob Stallings and Ko'd in one round by Jerry Quarry while being more or less in his prime. I mean losing to Quarry was nothing to be ashamed of, but getting sparked in one wasn't very flattering. Some here have suggested that Shavers would hammer the body, arms, and whatever to a stoppage. Some like myself have eluded to Valuev outlasting Earnie enroute to a decision or stoppage. Frankly I don't think its written in stone one way or the other. I just see valuev being too big and durable for a much smaller man with a bad track record of gassing out to just hammer his way to victory. Earnie hit harder than almost anybody. But he wasn't Joe Louis when it came to composite punching over the long haul. There's more to just raw power in these sorts of match ups. Now if this were an argument about who was the better fighter, better puncher, more exciting attraction, etc, etc. I'd give it to Earnie Shavers. But head to head matchups on paper and in casual conversation don't always pan out the way we'd like them too in the ring.

At the end of the day Valuev could stop chinny heavies. Ettiene was stopped in 3. Even usually durable fighters like Vidoz got stopped in 9. The report I recall from Boxing News is that although Vidoz found Valuev easy to find, he got exhausted punching what was basically an immovable object. Frankly the big guy could pace himself excellently, and never appeared unduly hurt or exhausted in any of his fights. Yet somehow Shavers can do what frankly better fighters failed to do according to this thread?!

I can give credence to the idea that Valuev could beat Shavers, but not to the idea that either Vidoz or Ettienne are better. What were the big moments in either of their careers to compare even to Shavers decking Holmes?

[polecateddy]

I think we should all at least agree that neither of these guys were supermen much less masters of the sweet science. Valuev was slow, unimpressive, and lacking in power for a man of his size. Shavers was relatively small by comparison, had a shaky chin, poor stamina, and wasn't very mobile or busy for a smaller guy. Valuev barely squeaked by aging versions of John Ruiz, Larry Donald and Evander Holyfield, while Shavers was beaten by Bob Stallings and Ko'd in one round by Jerry Quarry while being more or less in his prime. I mean losing to Quarry was nothing to be ashamed of, but getting sparked in one wasn't very flattering. Some here have suggested that Shavers would hammer the body, arms, and whatever to a stoppage. Some like myself have eluded to Valuev outlasting Earnie enroute to a decision or stoppage. Frankly I don't think its written in stone one way or the other. I just see valuev being too big and durable for a much smaller man with a bad track record of gassing out to just hammer his way to victory. Earnie hit harder than almost anybody. But he wasn't Joe Louis when it came to composite punching over the long haul. There's more to just raw power in these sorts of match ups. Now if this were an argument about who was the better fighter, better puncher, more exciting attraction, etc, etc. I'd give it to Earnie Shavers. But head to head matchups on paper and in casual conversation don't always pan out the way we'd like them too in the ring.

At the end of the day Valuev could stop chinny heavies. Ettiene was stopped in 3. Even usually durable fighters like Vidoz got stopped in 9. The report I recall from Boxing News is that although Vidoz found Valuev easy to find, he got exhausted punching what was basically an immovable object. Frankly the big guy could pace himself excellently, and never appeared unduly hurt or exhausted in any of his fights. Yet somehow Shavers can do what frankly better fighters failed to do according to this thread?!

I can give credence to the idea that Valuev could beat Shavers, but not to the idea that either Vidoz or Ettienne are better. What were the big moments in either of their careers to compare even to Shavers decking Holmes?

Ettiene was a puncher who attacked. Vidoz was durable and had stamina. Both stopped.