Herbert Muhammad "My Fighter Is Embarrassing Himself"

[grevan]

Only one person embarrassing himself around here...

[thunderfromdownunder]

Could someone just ban this clown already

[Giancarlo]

Could someone just ban this clown already

It's been requested several times but apparently posting bogus fight reports and labeling them as being from the Associated Press is fine.

He's just a lonely shut-in nutter with no life and a weird sexual attraction to "Clay"; I think Buzz feels sorry for him and lets him remain out of charity.

[DaveyMac]

Oh good lord, grow up Duce.

[Bobbyptsd]

Could someone just ban this clown already

X2

Other posters have been banned for similar, and I'd say significantly less bothersome, conduct.

I get that people are going to say things along the lines of: "Just ignore him" and "He can say what he wants", but I believe he is affecting the BOTP forum in a similar manner to what others have on CS and OT who were banned for simply being too disruptive.

I've said it before, but if the guy just said: "I don't like Ali and here's why" and then moved on, that would be fine. But he clogs up BOTP with thread after thread full of insinuations, outright lies, and false quotes. It's also not lost on me that he specifically insists on referring to Ali as "Cassius". What do you think that means?

The question is rhetorical of course, as you all know damn well what it means.

If I made three threads talking about Antonio Tarver or Tim Bradley or whoever in the same way, I'd be at least warned, if not out altogether. He's still here after endless hateful ramblings. I get that Buzz seems to have sympathy for him, but there's got to be a limit here, no?

[Giancarlo]

I get that Buzz seems to have sympathy for him, but there's got to be a limit here, no?

Apparently no.

OK, rambling on about "Clay" every day is ridiculous but I suppose its fairly harmless. Though why he can't be given one thread to drop his turds of wisdom in rather than being allowed to keep creating new threads on the same sad topic every day is a mystery. It's been done before with nutters who only have one subject they like to bang on about.

But making up AP reports and claiming to have discovered long forgotten dates of birth is over-stepping the mark and drags this site down.

[sweetsci]

Could someone just ban this clown already

I LOVE this day-by-day heavyweight history stuff that Il Duce posts. I'd miss him if he were gone. I take the Ali stuff and the "quotes" with a grain of salt. Il Duce obviously has a lot of knowledge. He's an asset to this forum, as are the knowledgable folks here who call him on questionable "facts". It's all part of the discussion. There's really no need to resort to name-calling or insults, as some do here. Don't like him? Don't read him.

[BoxBuzz]

POSSIBLY COMING SOON IN 2014!

IL DUCE"S "COMPLETE AND UNABRIDGE CLAY-ALI CHRONICLES" !!

Just as soon as I find the time to gather,sort and compress this remarkable body of work into one easy to read collection .

Which could take me until 2015 to accomplish.

I'm union...so don't expect it anytime soon.

[Giancarlo]

I LOVE this day-by-day heavyweight history stuff that Il Duce posts.

How can it be 'history stuff' if he's making parts of it up?

[Giancarlo]

I LOVE this day-by-day heavyweight history stuff that Il Duce posts.

How can it be 'history stuff' if he's making parts of it up?

April 27, 1976

ALI DUBS JIMMY YOUNG 'THE SQUIRREL' {Associated Press}

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... Jsv5nhUlHw

Among other things, it doesn't seem to contain the quote that stands out as your own work ie:

"This guy is done. He's fat and slow."

You added that bit? If so, why?

[Giancarlo]

Ray Kelly {Handler for Jimmy Young}

"Muhammad is old. He's fat and slow. He got up in the Ring at the Sheraton Ballroom, and didn't even
spar with anyone. He shadow-boxed and danced a little, but that was it. He can hardly move because
he's fat and out of shape."

"He came here expecting a walk-through, and now he's got to get himself in shape in 7-Days. Oh, he'll
try to fool everybody in Ring next week. You know, throw a few punches in the beginning of the Round,
and then do nothing for 2-Minutes, then throw a few punches in the last 15-seconds. I hope the Judges
don't fall for that Crap."

Source?

[BoxBuzz]

Source? I'm guessing one of nature's natural creativity enhancers. Hemp...or perhaps Poppies?

On the other hand, it could be he was there.....on the inside....serving up the O.J. to the needy.

He was there...listening and watching....always watching.... and now after all these years.....willing and able to share with the rest of us......for the celebration of Festivus!

[pound per pound]

Could someone just ban this clown already

I LOVE this day-by-day heavyweight history stuff that Il Duce posts. I'd miss him if he were gone. I take the Ali stuff and the "quotes" with a grain of salt. Il Duce obviously has a lot of knowledge. He's an asset to this forum, as are the knowledgable folks here who call him on questionable "facts". It's all part of the discussion. There's really no need to resort to name-calling or insults, as some do here. Don't like him? Don't read him.

Same here. He is a treasure trove. I like to read his stuff even if I disagree with it every now and then it's well worth the price if admission. Duce gives us all a ring side seat.

[yancey]

Could someone just ban this clown already

I LOVE this day-by-day heavyweight history stuff that Il Duce posts. I'd miss him if he were gone. I take the Ali stuff and the "quotes" with a grain of salt. Il Duce obviously has a lot of knowledge. He's an asset to this forum, as are the knowledgable folks here who call him on questionable "facts". It's all part of the discussion. There's really no need to resort to name-calling or insults, as some do here. Don't like him? Don't read him.

Same here. He is a treasure trove. I like to read his stuff even if I disagree with it every now and then it's well worth the price if admission. Duce gives us all a ring side seat.

x3

[yancey]

Source? I'm guessing one of nature's natural creativity enhancers. Hemp...or perhaps Poppies?

On the other hand, it could be he was there.....on the inside....serving up the O.J. to the needy.

He was there...listening and watching....always watching.... and now after all these years.....willing and able to share with the rest of us......for the celebration of Festivus!

"serving up the O.J."

Is Buzz dropping a hint here?

Or is it simply a soulful longing for the return of another BOTP legend?

[sweetsci]

"This guy is done. He's fat and slow."

You added that bit? If so, why?

See, I'm glad you & other posters question him on things like that. Sometimes Il Duce will post a news link in which we can get the true context of the situation. Sometimes not. My take on his quotes is below.

April 21, 1976

Don King, sitting in his 'plush' Office in New York, with a view of the Manhattan Skyline.

"It costs me $7000 a Month. I Love this place, and I want to keep it for a long time. How do
you think I pay for it, by promoting small bouts in small Hell Hole towns."

'Hell no. It have this because I have locked up Muhammad Ali. If he keeps winning 'with my help',
I get to keep all of this. If he loses, then I'm back in Cleveland. As long as I take care of his Manager
Herbert Muhammad, and keep setting up these 'cake-walks' I'll be the 'MAN'."

"I handed him that guy from Belgium {Jean-Pierre Coopman}. What was he ranked by the WBC,
#16 I believe. The WBC wasn't going to sanction the bout, so we had to fork over a 'special'
Sanctioning Fee to the WBC Executive Committee and Ratings Chairman. All part of doing business
to keep Muhammad Ali winning."

"After Coopman fell down in Puerto Rico, the WBC dropped him from #16 all the way down to #29.
They kept him on the board in the Top 30, more as a symbolic gesture to save face."

"I really gave Muhammad a late 34th Birthday Present {Born; January 17, 1942} in Puerto Rico
on {February 20, 1976} against Jean-Pierre Coopman. A $1,100,000 Birthday Present wrapped up in
a "Belgian Pastry'."

Okay, was Don King really quoted in a newspaper or magazine saying all that? I'd guess no. But I look at these quotes as historical fiction, and I don't mean that in a negative way. This post illustrates, basically, what was happening with the heavyweight title in the first months of 1976. I can see how a post like this could irritate some people, especially those who want word-for-word inside statements that can be proven through legitimate primary sources.

But speaking of "legitimate primary sources", boxing has a history of quotes attributed to boxers that can be questioned. One of Il Duce's newspaper links had a scan of an article with quote by Muhammad Ali that I can NEVER imagine Ali saying, simply based on the phrasing. I'm sure the reporter made it up to quickly, and reasonably accurately, summarize the situation. Another: In the mid-70s The Ring ran a long letter supposedly written by Ron Lyle. My copy is long gone, but I remember reading it and being certain that the writer was NOT Ron Lyle based on the phrasing of the letter. It could have been someone from Lyle's management team, or perhaps it was written by a Ring writer. So it was probably a "lie" in that it was likely not written by Lyle. But it did capture the situation at that time in a reasonably accurate way. It is what it is.

[ThatOne]

He didn't look good against Young. He really didn't look good in any fights after Manila.

[BoxBuzz]

Yep, by that time he was operating on great chin, and learned reflexes....and it was still enough to get him by in some very tough scenarios. If Young had not been stickin' his head out of the ring and confusing the officials, my guess is he would have taken home the HW title that night.

[ThatOne]

Yep, by that time he was operating on great chin, and learned reflexes....and it was still enough to get him by in some very tough scenarios. If Young had not been stickin' his head out of the ring and confusing the officials, my guess is he would have taken home the HW title that night.

He climbed his second or third mountain after Manila. That was the moment to hang em up...

[yancey]

He didn't look good against Young. He really didn't look good in any fights after Manila.

The obvious and right move was retirement after Manila.

[ThatOne]

Money and attention was what kept him fighting. If he had more honest and smarter people around him he could have had the money and attention after Manila without fighting after he was incapable of fighting at the level one expected of him.

[Bricks]

Only one person embarrassing himself around here...

People may feel he has an anti ali bias and that it is unfair in today's context are missing the point.

The point is il duce was around at the time of Ali's career.he provides facts and articles of the time,he puts a hell of an effort into his posts which I an ardent ali fan nonetheless find fascinating.

Well done duce.always a pleasure to read your posts

[Giancarlo]

The point is il duce was around at the time of Ali's career.he provides facts and articles of the time

The point is that he makes stuff up; that is what me and several other posters find annoying.

However, you and several other posters appear to prefer nonsense over what was actually said and and done at the time.

Good luck with that, I'm done with this clown.

[BoxBuzz]

it's all editorial.....mixed with some truth, and a little made up off the top of the noggin' for ol Duce..

It's all harmless, and at times entertaining....in a Foster Brooks sort of a way.

He's nothing if not prolific.

[BoxBuzz]

Now this one is a genuine Red Smith quote


RED SMITH; Biggest Event of '81: Ali's Retirement

By Sports of The Times

Published: December 25, 1981
WHAT was the biggest single sports event in 1981? The baseball strike comes to mind immediately, along with a variety of repercussions, including the split season and immoral pennant races, especially if the end result is the departure of Bowie Kuhn as commissioner. The improvement of the football Giants and Jets - if it is improvement and not just the effect of Pete Rozelle's parity scheduling - has had New York in a tizzy for weeks. There was plenty to captivate racing people - John Henry's charge through the $3 million mark, the springtime of Pleasant Colony and John Campo, Before Dawn's irresistible way with fillies.

Overriding all others, though, was an event that would have commanded attention any other year in the last 20. It was the retirement of Muhammad Ali, when the last cowbell concluded a sleazy production in a decaying ball park in the Bahamas.

For boxing, it was the end of an era; for the press and public, it was the curtain scene of an act that had played for two decades. In February 1961, Ali's first year as a professional, when his name was still Cassius Clay, he stiffened a stranger named Donnie Fleeman in Miami Beach and struck a Tarzan of the Apes pose in the dressingroom doorway.

''He had to go!'' he intoned, clenched fists aloft, the glare of a white Shetland pony in his eyes. Then he saw a reporter who chatted with him in Rome in 1960 and looked on when he beat Poland's Zbigniew Pietrzkowski for the Olympic light-heavyweight championship.

''Hey,'' Cassius said, ''write about me. You ain't wrote about me since Rome.'' In 1961 Floyd Patterson was heavyweight champion and Sonny Liston his leading contender.

''Look,'' Cassius Clay said in a confidential tone, ''Sugar Robinson is gone. That Patterson, he don't say nothin'. Liston cain't say nothin'. I got to keep talking to keep up some interest in this sport.''

Talk he did, reciting rancid verse, deriding Floyd Patterson as ''The Rabbit,'' Liston as ''The Ugly Bear,'' Earnie Shavers as ''The Acorn.'' When there was disagreement over a decision like his disputed victory over Doug Jones, he flushed dissent away in a spate of rhetoric. In time he changed his name and some of the ornaments of his act; he gave up forecasting knockouts to the round and eased off on the rhymes, but the basic routine never changed.

He was repetitious, boring, often entertaining, tireless, and the best thing that happened to boxing since Tom Sayers and John C. Heenan. When Cassius was a youngster in Louisville, Ky., main-event fighters on Jim Norris's Friday night television shows received a TV fee of $1,000 each, in addition to the percentage of the live house negotiated with the promoter. When and if Gerry Cooney fights Larry Holmes March 15, champion and challenger will get $10 million each.

Muhammad Ali brought that change about. He made himself the most widely known individual in the world, an athlete respected universally; a folk hero, especially to the rebellious youth of the 1960's, when he ''didn't have nothin' against them Viet Cong;'' a gag man considered gifted by many; even a short-term diplomat in the State Department.

In those areas he was, as he would be the first to admit, ''the greatest.'' He bestowed that rank upon himself as a fighter, and there he never qualified.

He was good. He was brilliantly fast on his feet and with his hands. He could take a good punch to the body or the head. He was a fair puncher and his speed enabled him to get by with tactical boxing sins. He was probably the best of his time, though besides losing officially to Joe Frazier, Ken Norton, the celebrated helldriver Leon Spinks, and Trevor Berbick, he was whipped by Jimmy Young and perhaps Shavers.

Temperamentally, he was not without contradictions. He cared nothing about money, doing many small, impulsive charities that added up to a lot. Probably he is still generous when he encounters need that touches him.

He could display shocking streaks of cruelty, as the night he tortured Ernie Terrell unnecessarily through 15 rounds, and especially the night he made a painfully crippled Floyd Patterson stand and take punishment for 12 rounds. The oral abuse he sometimes heaped on camp followers like Bundini Brown and Muhammad's brother, Rahman, could turn witnesses off.

His recent retirement in Nassau was not Ali's first. He had called it quits and reversed his call several times, and might do it again, but this one seemed like the real thing. Asked whether he felt his skills might be going, he said: ''It's not may have gone, they have gone.'' He never conceded that before, not even after making an exhibition of himself with Holmes in the fall of 1980.

He was with us a long time, he earned his way, and his departure is a major happening. So an era ends, not with a bang, not with a whimper, but with the toneless toll of a cowbell. May he have a happy.