What heavyweight champ had the toughest winning defences?

Ambling Alp II · Post by **Ambling Alp II** » 28 Dec 2013, 23:07

If you want to do this objectively, one thing that needs to be done is not try to figure this out by average.
A fighter should not be penalized by defending the title against a weak opponent. He just should get credit for it.

Think about it; lets say one champion defended his title 6 times in one year, with 5 vs really good competition and one against a complete no-hoper. If another champion only defends the title once, but it's against a really good opponent, his "average" will be higher and it will look like what he did was more impressive when it clearly was not.

So when rating Joe Louis for example, his defenses vs "bums of the month" should be ignored. Just consider title defenses vs Schmeling, Farr, Walcott, Godoy etc. Then decide if it's harder to beat all of those guys or all of the guys that someone else beat.

Weight should be ignored; the lighter man wins about the same amount of the time as the heavier man in title fights.

Win/loss records can be very deceiving. Up until around the 1980s, contenders usually fought tough competition early and often. Top 10 contenders routinely fought each other, which is almost unheard of in recent eras. As a result, top contenders almost always had a few losses before they got a title shot. There simply were not contenders around that were 20-0 or 25-0 for a Joe Louis to defend the title against.

SteveO · Post by **SteveO** » 29 Dec 2013, 14:03

Holmes had 21 title defences. You forgot Micheal Spinks on your list - which was a lineal title fight and also recognised by the IBF and 'Ring Magazine'.
EDIT: Sorry, I just realised it is for successful defences - please ignore the above.

Controversial · Post by **Controversial** » 29 Dec 2013, 19:18

Rocky "The Brockton Blockbuster" Marciano
===========================

First pro fight aged: 23 years 6 months
Age first won world title: 29 years
Last pro fight aged: 32 years

Final record: 49(43)-0

6 title defences: 6(5)-0

How many of the 6 opponents held a world title at some point in their career: 3*

Combined records of opposition:
Undefeated challengers: 0
Average age of opposition: 32 years 5 months
Average weight of opposition: 192.25lbs
Marciano average weight: 186.9lbs
What challenger had the most fights: Archie Moore (175 fights)
What challenger had the least fights: Roland LaStarza (56 fights)
Oldest challenger: Jersey Joe Walcott (39 and 3 months)
Youngest challenger: Roland LaStarza (24 and 9 months)
Lightest challenger: Roland LaStarza (184.75lbs)
Heaviest challenger: Don Cockell (205lbs)
What opponent had the longest unbeaten run going into title fight? Archie Moore (21 fights)

=======================================================================================================================
Date of fight (age of Marciano).....Result.........Opponent............................Opponent record......Opponent age.....................Marciano / Op. weight......Op last defeat................Op record after loss
=======================================================================================================================

15th May 1953...........................WKO 1...Jersey Joe Walcott*...........51-17-2 ...........aged 39 and 3 months..........184.5lbs / 197.75lbs.........unbeaten in 0 fights.........RETIRED

24th Sep 1953..........................WTKO 11....Roland LaStarza.............53-3-3................aged 24 and 9 months........185lbs / 184.75lbs.........unbeaten in 2 fights........4(3)-5

17th June 1954..........................WUD 15....Ezzard Charles*...............83-10-1...........aged 32 and 11 months..........187.5lbs / 185.5lbs.........unbeaten in 2 fights........10(4)-14

17th Sep 1954...........................WKO 8......Ezzard Charles*.................83-11-1.............aged 33 and 2 months........187lbs / 192.5lbs.........unbeaten in 0 fights.........10(4)-13

16th May 1955..........................WTKO 9....Don Cockell.................66-11-1........aged 26 and 7 months..................189lbs / 205lbs.........unbeaten in 10 fights.........0-2

21st Sep 1955..........................WTKO 9....Archie Moore*..................148-19-8..........aged 38 and 9 months..............188.25lbs / 188lbs........unbeaten in 21 fights.........37(24)-3-2

Each fight lasted on average 8.8 rounds

Ambling Alp II · Post by **Ambling Alp II** » 30 Dec 2013, 10:27

I have been trying to think of a good way to do this and this is what I came up with:Have a points system where the better the opponent was, the more points the champion gets for his defense.
I gave the champion 3 points if he made a successful defense against a great fighter (assuming the fighter was still a great fighter at the time that they fought): So for example Louis gets 3 pts for beating Schmeling, Ali got 3 for beating Frazier, Holyfield got 3 for beating Tyson.

2 points for a successful defense against a real quality contender-So for example, Holmes got 2 points each for beating Weaver, Shavers, Berbick, Witherspoon, and Smith.

1 point for a successful defense against a decent contender. So for example, Dempsey got 1 popint for beating Bill Brennan, Marciano got 1 pt for beat Roland La Starza, Tyson got 1 for beating Tyrell Biggs.

0 points for beating an opponent that wasn't, to be nice, very good. So for example, Marciano got 0 for beating Cockell, Patterson didn't get any points for beating Rademacher, Ali got zero for beating Coopman.

I totalled up the points.
Not surprisingly, Ali was first (total of 25 points), and Louis was 2nd (total of 21 points) After that, it was interesting:
Lewis got 17
Tyson 15
Holmes 15
Holyfield 9
Jeffries 8
Marciano 8
Dempsey 6

Marciano's opponents were particularly hard to rate. I gave him 2 each for the defense vs past their prime Walcott and 2 point for each of his defenses vs Charles who was also past his prime. Gave him 1 point for Moore and La Starza, zero for Cockell. This came to a total of 8.

Obviously there are some borderline calls when rating some of these title defenses, but this gives you a rough idea.

SaadOffTheDeck · Post by **SaadOffTheDeck** » 30 Dec 2013, 12:05

Ambling Alp II wrote: Not surprisingly, Ali was first (total of 25 points)

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 30 Dec 2013, 12:22

Saad....is the chuckling about the points system...or the assumption?

or...both.

Alp could you devise a points method, of any kind that would lead to another conclusion....one that purposefully does NOT support your assumption. Love to see what that would look like.

Hey....I mean no ill intent...just stirring the pot.

SaadOffTheDeck · Post by **SaadOffTheDeck** » 30 Dec 2013, 12:26

BoxBuzz wrote:Saad....is the chuckling about the points system...or the assumption?

or...both.

Alp could you devise a points method, of any kind that would lead to another conclusion....one that purposefully does NOT support your assumption. Love to see what that would look like.

Hey....I mean no ill intent...just stirring the pot.

The irony of the wording. As soon as I started reading his post I knew Ali would come out on top, the "not surprisingly" gave me a hearty laugh. Nothing has ever been less surprising.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 30 Dec 2013, 13:41

Well the formula for such a thing to cross the subjective/objective smell test is an interesting challenge.

Most would favor boxers who simply walked into the ring more often....Joe Louis has the advantage there.

You may have to percentage out the quantity, and do some sort of equation that gives each opponents history some credible weight.

Not impossible....but complex. Aging of great names would be interesting.....

How many points for defeating Holmes at x age vs age y. etc. and loose cannon calculations....such as opponent A after he was shot vs before he was shot. Even then you'd have to qualify the degree of demonstrated compromise, vs assumed compromise.

Hell....I think the ol fashion subjective argument trumps this math method.

Ambling Alp II · Post by **Ambling Alp II** » 30 Dec 2013, 16:12

BoxBuzz wrote:Saad....is the chuckling about the points system...or the assumption?

or...both.

Alp could you devise a points method, of any kind that would lead to another conclusion....one that purposefully does NOT support your assumption. Love to see what that would look like.

Hey....I mean no ill intent...just stirring the pot.

I was trying to combine both quality and quantity. There is rhyme and reason to this. It's better than making a random idiotic comment like Holyfield's successful defenses were the toughest or something like that.

I could devise some point system that says Jerry Rice wasn't the best wide receiver, but it would have to be pretty flawed. I could do the same with boxing so that Ali doesn't come out on top, but it would have to be pretty flawed as well. What would be the point?

I am also thinking of doing this for other weight classes as well, and most of them I don't know who will come out on top. Should be interesting.

The results were not surprising to me because I already knew that Ali had defended the title against the most tough opponents. I figured Louis would be 2nd since he had the most.

Personally, I really wanted to see how everyone else would shake out.

SaadOffTheDeck · Post by **SaadOffTheDeck** » 30 Dec 2013, 18:46

Ambling Alp II wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote:Saad....is the chuckling about the points system...or the assumption?

or...both.

Alp could you devise a points method, of any kind that would lead to another conclusion....one that purposefully does NOT support your assumption. Love to see what that would look like.

Hey....I mean no ill intent...just stirring the pot.
I was trying to combine both quality and quantity. There is rhyme and reason to this. It's better than making a random idiotic comment like Holyfield's successful defenses were the toughest or something like that.

I could devise some point system that says Jerry Rice wasn't the best wide receiver, but it would have to be pretty flawed. I could do the same with boxing so that Ali doesn't come out on top, but it would have to be pretty flawed as well. What would be the point?

I am also thinking of doing this for other weight classes as well, and most of them I don't know who will come out on top. Should be interesting.

The results were not surprising to me because I already knew that Ali had defended the title against the most tough opponents. I figured Louis would be 2nd since he had the most.

Personally, I really wanted to see how everyone else would shake out.

Awww, I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. Your Ali system is super duper, little buddy.

Nile4000 · Post by **Nile4000** » 30 Dec 2013, 19:14

Robinson wrote:Larry Holmes wins the title against Ken Norton in 1978.

Alfredo Evangelista. KO Round 7. Oct. 1978.
After going 15 rounds with Muhammad Ali for the world heavyweight title in 1977, Alfredo would go on to KO Jean Piere Coopman in the first round, as well as to string together ten straight wins with 8 stoppages amongst them. After the Holmes fight, he would go on to face Leon Spinks and Greg Page and lose to both of them, but he would also beat Renaldo Snipes and tough journeyman Terry Daniels.
1978 record 24-2

Ossie Ocasio. TKO Round 7. March 1979.
Prior to his Holmes fight, Ocasio had just won two decisions over the skilled boxer Jimmy Young who had recent wins over Ron Lyle and George Foreman. It was these two fights over Young which saw Ocasio face off against Holmes. After the Holmes bout Ocasio fought Michael Dokes to a draw, and in his older years would win decisions over Dwight Muhammad Qawi and Pierre Coetzer.
1979 record 13-0

Mike Weaver. TKO Round 12. June 1979.
The hard hitting Weaver had suffered a fistful of losses early in his career including a seventh round stoppage to Duane Bobbick, the man who had beaten Holmes for the Olympic trials in 1972. Leading up to the Holmes fight Weaver beat and lost to a few suspect opponents his best win was a points win over Pedro Lowel and a fifth round stoppage of Bernardo Mercado. After the Holmes fight Weaver would go on to win the WBA title by beating John Tate, and in defending this title he would defeat Gerrie Coezter in the 13th and win a decision over James Tillis. He would lose his title to Michael Dokes, only to re-match for it with a draw. After some more losses to better fighters, and a string of wins over journeymen, he would go on to KO Carl Williams inside two, and to beat Bert Cooper in 1993. Weaver would go onto face Holmes again when both men are well into there forties.
1979 record 19-8

Earnie Shavers. TKO Round 11. September 1979.
Holmes had already defeated the hard hitting Shavers on his way to the title, and granted the power puncher a title shot after Shavers had stopped Ken Norton inside round one. Prior to this Shavers had faced a who’s who list of top 1970s heavyweights, before his first Holmes loss, he had just gone 15 rounds with Muhammad Ali for the title. An always dangerous fighter, Shavers would go onto stop Joe Bugner in 1982 as well as lose some more fights and go onto demonstrate his power against lesser opponents.
1979 record 59-7-1

Lorenzo Zannon. KO Round 6. February 1980.
Leading up to the Holmes fight Zannon had suffered two losses to the likes of Jerry Quarry, who he out boxed until being KO’d and a loss to Ken Norton, giving Norton a tough fight until he was stopped. His best wins in this period was against Evangelista who he bested twice and against Italian fighter Peralta and journeyman Sandman. Zannon held a European title at the time of the Holmes fight. After the Holmes bout Zannon fought four more times with mixed results and would go on to retire soon after.
1980 record 25-4-2

Leroy Jones. TKO Round 8. March 1980.
A physically big man who at 6’5 and 255 lb posed a threat to most opponents Bringing to his professional career a good amateur background. Prior to his title challenge against Holmes, Jones had a near perfect record with just one draw against Pedro Lovell, his best wins were against Mike Weaver, John Dino Dennis and tough journeyman Jody Ballard. After his Holmes loss, he had one more fight and then retired due to an eye injury.
1980 record 24-0-1

Scott Ledoux. TKO Round 7. July 1980.
He gave Foreman a tough fight, in there brief but exciting bout, he managed to take Leon Spinks and Ken Norton to a draw. He faced top competition and was a competent contender, who would go on to fight for another three years with a 7-4 record over a mixed grade of opponents.
1980 record 26-8-4

Muhammad Ali. TKO Round 10. October 1980.
There is no dispute that the Ali that fought Holmes should have retired in 1978 with his win over Leon Spinks, but for whatever reason the former champ felt a need to return and the public who felt he was the true champion granted him another chance. Holmes though reluctantly stopped the legend in a one sided bout, that saw Ali not land a single punch it was to be Ali’s only stoppage defeat. After the Holmes fight Ali would have one more fight against Trevor Berbick and he would lose that as well.
1980 record 56-3

Trevor Berbick. UD 15. April 1981.
Berbick’s best performance immediately prior to his Holmes fight was a ninth round KO over John Tate, before that he had faced average opposition and suffered a loss to Bernardo Mercado. After his Holmes loss the big Jamaican would beat an elderly Ali, decision Greg Page, Mitch Green and Pinklon Thomas, as an older past his prime fighter he faced varying opponents with mixed results. Besides his win over Ali he is also best remembered for his stoppage loss against a prime Mike Tyson who stripped him of his WBC belt.
1981 record 18-1-1

Leon Spinks. TKO Round 3. June 1981.
The Olympic gold medalist had been catapulted into sports stardom due to his win over Ali in 1978, just seven fights into his pro career, he become heavyweight champion of the world. Before his second shot at the title against Holmes, he was stopped by the tough South African Gerrie Coetzee, thereafter he would stop Evagelista, Isaac and Mercardo, it was his namesake however that made him a credible contender. After his Holmes loss he fought at both Heavy and Cruiser weights with mixed results losing a good many of bouts to a mixed bag of fighters. His style was aggressive and awkward, but it was his heart and work ethic that saw him fail.
1981 record 10-2-2

Renaldo Snipes. TKO Round 11. November 1981.
The tricky Snipes leading up to his fight with Holmes had strung together a perfect record, with recent wins that included wins over Floyd Cummings, Eddie Mustaffa Muhammad and Gerrie Coetzee, these wins put him inline for a title shot. After giving Holmes a tough fight Snipes went on to suffer a cluster of losses to top fighters as well as journeymen, his best wins post Holmes were against Trevor Berbick and Johnny DuPlooy.
1981 record 22-0

Gerry Cooney. TKO Round 13. June 1982.
The great white hope, or hype whichever you view him as, Cooney in 1982 was a very real contender, who was well marketed and was able to land both men a grand pay day. Leading up to his showdown with Holmes, Cooney early on had cut his teeth with a stoppage over John Dino Dennis, and then in 1980 he stopped a still very effective Jimmy Young inside four, it was his first round stoppages of Norton and Lyle that landed the hard hitting Cooney a title shot. After his Holmes loss, Cooney strung a handful of stoppage wins only to himself be stopped by Michael Spinks, and in 1990 after a three year lay off he was stopped by the also returning George Foreman. Cooney had devastating power and before Holmes he had stopped all but four of his opponents. Many claim that Cooney peaked for the Holmes fight and proved that he would never regain the fire that had made him such a dangerous contender.
1982 record 25-0

Randall ‘Tex’ Cobb. UD 15. November 1982.
The match between these two caused great controversy as Holmes was able to completely dominate and win every round. Cobb was fresh off an eighth round stoppage of an always dangerous Earnie Shavers, and proved he could take punishment as well as dish it out. He then went on to lose two close split decisions to Ken Norton and Michael Dokes, in this fights he proved how tenacious a fighter he can be. After the Dokes loss he went on to string four straight wins together which included a decision victory over the tough contender Bernado Mercado. Cobb went on after the Holmes loss to beat Leon Spinks and lose a majortity decision to an up and coming Buster Douglas.
1982 record 21-2

Lucien Rodrigues. UD 12. March 1983.
The Frenchman brought with him the European Union title, as well as an international flavour to the world title, leading up to his Holmes title challenge Lucien had lost a decision to Dokes, after which he strung together eleven wins over European opponents including Evangelista. After the Holmes fight Lucien would fight in Europe with mixed outcomes, losing as many as he won.
1983 record 35-7-1

Tim Witherspoon. SD 12. May 1983.
Before his title challenge Witherspoon had defeated all of his opponents, most he had stopped with his powerful over hand right. It was his close decision over Renaldo Snipes which saw him gain a title shot, able to give Holmes a close fight Witherspoon would go on to defeat James Tillis, Greg Page, James Broad, James Smith, Frank Bruno, Tony Tubbs, Carl Williams, Jose Ribalta, and Jorge Luis Gonalez. He would win the WBC and WBA title on separate occasions and would fight on well into his silver years, still able to deliver a damaging blow with his over right.
1983 record 15-0

Scott Frank. TKO Round 5. September 1983.
The local tough guy, who brought a title fight to his home town, before his title challenge Frank’s best fights was a draw over Renaldo Snipes, a points win over journeyman legend Chuck Wepner, and a stoppage over tough guy Ron Stander. Other than that he had beaten all of his other opponents, this did him no good against Holmes who stopped him in five. After his Holmes loss, Frank retired and made two come backs one in 1987 and the other ten years later in 1997, he won both fights by stoppage.
1983 record 21-0-1

Marvis Frazier. TKO Round 1. November 1983.
The son of Smokin’ Joe Frazier was a talented amateur who under his father’s guidance became a solid pro. Leading up to his Holmes fight Marvis had an unblemished record with wins over Steve Zouski, James Broad and Joe Bugner, none of this did him any good against the prime Holmes who stopped him inside the first round. After his Holmes defeat Frazier put together a solid winning streak which included wins over James Tillis, Joes Ribalta and James Smith. This put him in sight of a Mike Tyson show down, where he was stopped inside of one round. After the Tyson loss, he had three more straight wins before retiring.
1983 record 10-0

James Smith. TKO Round 12. November 1984.
Bonecrusher Smith was on his way up when he challenged Holmes for the title, apart from a loss to James Broad in his first fight, Smith had strapped together 14 straight wins, which included a win over tough Briton Frank Bruno, it was this win that gave him credibility to face Holmes. After his loss to Holmes, Smith suffered three losses before he stuck together wins over Weaver, Bey and Witherspoon who he took the WBA strap from. This lead him into a show down with Tyson, who he managed to go the distance with in a one sided loss. Smith would go on to fight a variety of opponents and with a variety of results. Smith faced Holmes again in 1999, both men well beyond there best, it only took Holmes eight rounds in the rematch.
1984 record 14-1

David Bey. TKO Round 10. March 1985.
When he fought Holmes Bey was un-defeated and had won fights against Buster Douglas, who was five in his pro career while Bey was making his debut. His best win was against Greg Page which led him to a Holmes fight. After which he lost more than he won, settling in as a journeyman instead of a contender. Before turning Pro, Bey had an impressive amateur record which brought to the ring considerable experience on his part, considering his limited pro-record.
1985 record 14-0

Carl Williams. UD 15. May 1985.
When the Truth faced Holmes he was an un-beaten prospect with a lot of potential who had just come of wins over a list of sound journeymen, but it was his win over James Tillis that landed him the Holmes fight. After losing the decision to Holmes, he beat a handful of opponents including Bert Cooper and Trevor Berbick before facing Tyson for his title, where he was stopped inside of the first. After the Tyson loss he had an un-exceptional span of wins and losses.
1985 record 16-0.

The top fighters during his reign that he never got to fight, include Greg Page, Gerrie Coetzer, Jimmy Young, James Tillis, Frank Bruno, Tony Tucker and Tony Tubbs.

Holmes would go on to lose his title to the then undisputed Light Heavyweight Champion, Michael Spinks in a controversial, if not very close decision. The re-match left as much doubt to judging clarity. After which Holmes retired only to return three years later to face a prime Mike Tyson. After the Tyson loss he returned in 1991 with a comeback that lasted up until 2002. In his comeback 1991-2002 he went 21-3. Before his decision defeat to Michael Spinks in 1985, his record was an impeccable 48-0. Holmes faced every one that he could, often fighting fresh talent as they were on the way up or just as they were reaching a prime. He was an older man facing younger and hungry fighters.

In regards to Holmes.

There was an attempt to unify the WBA and WBC strap but politics prevented this fight between Holmes and Coetzee.

The challengers that Holmes was going to face that were top guys at the time Greg Page, James Tillis, Jimmy Young, John Tate, Tony Tucker, Tony Tubbs, Frank Bruno and Gerrie Coetzer all were elimanted by one of the guys that did go on to face Holmes.

Young loss twice to Ocasio. Ocasio faces Holmes.

Berbick had beaten Tate, which eliminated Tate, which gave Berbick the shot.

Snipes beat Gerrie Coetzee, which you could argue elminated Gerrie and put Snipes in line for Holmes.

I guess Cooney helped eliminate Young again.

Bonecrusher Smith's win over Bruno eliminated the Briton from facing Holmes and elevated Smiths status as challenger.

David Bey got his shot by beating Greg Page, which in turn eliminated Page from facing Holmes.

Carl Truth Williams beat James Tillis which got him his fight against Holmes, this in turn eliminated Tillis from facing Holmes.

Granted He did face some not so great guys, but when you fight that many challengers that often, as is the case of Louis, Burns and so on you do face some guys who are not all time greats.

Holmes still ducked Page when it counted the most, in the latter part of 1983, when Page was THE #1 contender. Tillis, when he lost to Wiatherspoon in late 1983, pretty much ended his run as a contender.Jimmy Young, after his loss to Page in mid-1982, pretty much ended his run as a serious contender.

SaadOffTheDeck · Post by **SaadOffTheDeck** » 30 Dec 2013, 19:55

Yeah, Holmes must have been terrified of of taking one of those flabby tits in his eye.

Controversial · Post by **Controversial** » 30 Dec 2013, 21:42

Joe " The Brown Bomber" Louis
===================

First pro fight aged: 20 years 1 month
Age first won world title: 23 years 1 months
Last pro fight aged: 37 years 5 months

Final record: 44(29)-10(2)-2

25 title defences: 66(53)-3(2)

How many of the 25 opponents held a world title at some point in their career: 3 (Schmeling, Conn and Walcott)

Combined records of challengers: 1313-281-91
Three undefeated challengers: 0
Average age of challenger:
Average weight of challenger: 203.4lbs
Louis average weight in title fight: 203.1lbs (lowest 197lbs / highest 213.5lbs)
What challenger had the most fights: John Henry Lewis (111 fights)
What challenger had the least fights: Lou Nova (32 fights)
Oldest challenger:
Youngest challenger:
Lightest challenger: Billy Conn (174lbs)
Heaviest challenger: Abe Simon (255.25lbs)
What challenger had the longest unbeaten run going into title fight: Tommy Farr (20 fights)

=======================================================================================================================
Date of fight (age of Louis).....Result.........Opponent............................Opponent record......Opponent age.....................Louis / Op. weight (lbs)......Op last defeat................Op record after loss
=======================================================================================================================

30th Aug 1937......................WUD 15......Tommy Farr..........................69-24-17................aged and months................197 / 204.25................unbeaten in 20 fights............

23rd Feb 1938....................WKO 3..........Nathan Mann......................40-4-3.....................aged and months..............200 / 193.5...................unbeaten in 4 fights...............

1st Apr 1938........................WKO 5......Harry Thomas.........................40-10-2................aged years months..............202.5 / 196....................unbeaten in 1 fight...............

22nd Jun 1938......................WKO 1.......Max Schmeling*.....................52-7-4..................aged years months..............198.75 / 193....................unbeaten in 8 fights..............

25th Jan 1939.......................WKO 1........John Henry Lewis.................98-9-4....................aged years months............200.25 / 180.75................unbeaten in 15 fights.................

17th Apr 1939......................WKO 1......Jack Roper.............................61-39-10................aged years months...............201.25 / 204.75................unbeaten in 7 fights................

28th Jun 1939.......................WTKO 4......Tony Galento.......................76-23-5...................aged years months............200.75 / 233.75.................unbeaten in 11 fights..............

20th Sep 1939......................WKO 11..........Bob Pastor.......................38-4-4.....................aged years months..............200 / 183.........................unbeaten in 6 fights................

9th Feb 1940..........................WSD 15.....Arturo Godoy.......................52-9-7...................aged years............................203 / 202..........................unbeaten in 0 fights.................
.
29th Mar 1940.......................WTKO 2........Johnny Paychek.................38-3-2.....................aged years months..............200.5 / 187.75.....................unbeaten in 9 fights...............

20th Jun 1940........................WTKO 8......Arturo Godoy (rematch)..................52-10-7.............aged years months.............199 / 201.5................unbeaten in 0 fights.................

16th Dec 1940........................WRTD 5......Al McCoy............................68-16-5...............aged years months...............202.25 / 180.75......................unbeaten in 0 fights...............

31st Jan 1941.........................WKO 5........Red Burman......................73-16-1...................aged years months.............202.5 / 188............................unbeaten in 9 fights.............

17th Feb 1941.........................WKO 2......Gus Dorazio........................51-9-1............aged years months.............203 / 193.5.....................................unbeaten in 2 fights..............

21st Mar 1941.........................WTKO 13......Abe Simon......................34-7..............aged years months.............202 / 254.5.......................................unbeaten in 0 fights..............

8th Apr 1940...........................WTKO 9......Tony Musto.......................29-10-1.............aged years months.............203.25 / 199.5..............................unbeaten in 1 fights..............

23rd May 1941.........................WDQ 7......Buddy Baer........................51-5................aged years months.............201.75 / 237.5.................................unbeaten in 1 fights..............

18th Jun 1941..........................WKO 13......Billy Conn*.........................59-9-1...........aged years months.............199.5 / 174......................................unbeaten in 19 fights..............

29th Sep 1941.........................WTKO 6......Lou Nova..........................26-2-4..........aged years months.............202.25 / 202.5....................................unbeaten in 4 fights..............

9th Jan 1942............................WKO 1......Buddy Baer (rematch).........................51-6...........aged years months.............206.5 / 250.........................unbeaten in 0 fights..............

27th Mar 1942..........................WTKO 6......Abe Simon (rematch)...............36-9-1............aged years months.............207.5 / 255.25.......................unbeaten in 0 fights..............

19th Jun 1946...........................WKO 8......Billy Conn* (rematch)..........62-10-1.........aged years months.............207 / 182.........................unbeaten in 3 fights..............

18th Sep 1946...........................WKO 1......Tami Maurillio......................69-7-1..............aged years months............211.5 / 198.5..................................unbeaten in 12 fights..............

5th Dec 1947............................WSD 15......Jersey Joe Walcott*..............44-11-2......................aged years months......211.5 / 194.5...............................unbeaten in 3 fights..............

25th Jun 1948..........................WKO 11......Jersey Joe Walcott* (rematch)......44-12-2.....................aged years months.........213.5 / 193.75.............................unbeaten in 0 fights..............

Each fight lasted on average 7.8 rounds

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 31 Dec 2013, 08:59

If you really want to compare like for like then you shouldn't really count Holmes' defences pre-Ali win...Tyson's pre-Spinks...Lewis pre-Briggs...

Nile4000 · Post by **Nile4000** » 31 Dec 2013, 15:32

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Yeah, Holmes must have been terrified of of taking one of those flabby tits in his eye.

NO, he was scared of a seriouis whuppin'

SaadOffTheDeck · Post by **SaadOffTheDeck** » 31 Dec 2013, 18:31

On the best day of his life, Page couldn't beat a 45 year old Holmes.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 31 Dec 2013, 19:59

It got to be the great Smokin Joe Frazier

Oscar Bonavena
Manuel Ramos
Jimmie Ellis
Jerry Quarry
Muhammad Ali
Bob Foster

After the FOTC, 2 out of 3 of his defenses were crap:
Terry Daniels
Ron Stander
George Foreman

Controversial · Post by **Controversial** » 01 Jan 2014, 06:59

Ambling Alp II wrote:
0 points for beating an opponent that wasn't, to be nice, very good. So for example, Marciano got 0 for beating Cockell

Trouble is these are open to interpretation. Cockell was actually a decent fighter, albeit better at LHW and actually was holding his own against Marciano in the early rounds. He beat Roland La Starza, Harry Matthews (x3), Tommy Farr, Freddie Beshore and at LHW he beat top contender Lloyd Marshall (x2). Granted he wasn't as good as he used to be but I wouldn't say he wasn't very good.

Tomasino · Post by **Tomasino** » 01 Jan 2014, 07:35

Controversial wrote:
Ambling Alp II wrote:
0 points for beating an opponent that wasn't, to be nice, very good. So for example, Marciano got 0 for beating Cockell
Trouble is these are open to interpretation. Cockell was actually a decent fighter, albeit better at LHW and actually was holding his own against Marciano in the early rounds. He beat Roland La Starza, Harry Matthews (x3), Tommy Farr, Freddie Beshore and at LHW he beat top contender Lloyd Marshall (x2). Granted he wasn't as good as he used to be but I wouldn't say he wasn't very good.

He took Marcianos shots as well as any fighter. Ezzard Charles said Marciano could hurt you hitting your arms and shoulders.

Ambling Alp II · Post by **Ambling Alp II** » 01 Jan 2014, 13:41

Controversial wrote:
Ambling Alp II wrote:
0 points for beating an opponent that wasn't, to be nice, very good. So for example, Marciano got 0 for beating Cockell
Trouble is these are open to interpretation. Cockell was actually a decent fighter, albeit better at LHW and actually was holding his own against Marciano in the early rounds. He beat Roland La Starza, Harry Matthews (x3), Tommy Farr, Freddie Beshore and at LHW he beat top contender Lloyd Marshall (x2). Granted he wasn't as good as he used to be but I wouldn't say he wasn't very good.

Well yes, it's open to interpretation. There are always going to be borderline calls. However, I thought it was system that made sense and is certainly better than just saying one guy was the best without any real reasoning. And it is better than going by win/loss records or the weights of the opponents.

As for Cockell, looking at his overall career, I didn't think Cockell was that good of a fighter. Farr for example was way past it when Cockell beat him. But sure you could give Marciano a point for beating him.

Try rating their defenses yourself and see what you come up with. (3 points for a successful defense over a fighter who is great at the time, 2 points vs a very good opponent, 1 for a decent opponent and 0 for someone who really wasn't very good.) It is actually kind of fun.

Controversial · Post by **Controversial** » 01 Jan 2014, 15:51

To be fair the average weights, win/loss etc was more out of curiosity and personal interest, I wasn't trying to insinuate anything by them. As an example I forgot that Louis was as light as he was. I can see what you were doing, not a bad idea, I just thought I stick up for Cockell a bit as he has the fat and useless tag which I think is a tad unfair.

Nile4000 · Post by **Nile4000** » 02 Jan 2014, 14:57

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:On the best day of his life, Page couldn't beat a 45 year old Holmes.

Maybe, I doubt it.But ain't it funny, that the slightly past-his-prime 33-to-34 year old version didn't want no parts of him.Reason: Potential ass-whuppin' and humiliation from the Louisville Rage.Believe that!

DD

SaadOffTheDeck · Post by **SaadOffTheDeck** » 02 Jan 2014, 15:06

Nile4000 wrote:
SaadOffTheDeck wrote:On the best day of his life, Page couldn't beat a 45 year old Holmes.
Maybe, I doubt it.But ain't it funny, that the slightly past-his-prime 33-to-34 year old version didn't want no parts of him.Reason: Potential ass-whuppin' and humiliation from the Louisville Rage.Believe that!
DD

It's certainly funny that you believe that.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 02 Jan 2014, 15:25

A lot of the "belief" in Page...was in his potential....but you have to admit....it never really manifested.

I thought he was going to write a new chapter at first....but then I saw he spent more time believing in his own potential, and less time mining his potential.

So....he remained an "also ran". But he sure made up in longevity...he hung in there for a while.....and to his credit, he was better than he should have been in his waning boxing days. But he really never peaked the way he perhaps could have.

Nile4000 · Post by **Nile4000** » 02 Jan 2014, 17:55

BoxBuzz wrote:A lot of the "belief" in Page...was in his potential....but you have to admit....it never really manifested.

I thought he was going to write a new chapter at first....but then I saw he spent more time believing in his own potential, and less time mining his potential.

So....he remained an "also ran". But he sure made up in longevity...he hung in there for a while.....and to his credit, he was better than he should have been in his waning boxing days. But he really never peaked the way he perhaps could have.

When you're father forces you into boxing, your desire to be the best definitely lessens, this was the case for Greg.He was more into basketball.