Why is Holmes vs. Marvis Frazier counted as a title fight?

[SteveO]

Sorry Sweetsci but you're wrong. Ring magazine continued to recognise Ali as champion until he lost to Frazier on March 8th 1971.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Th ... _champions

[Robinson]

If we want to dig into legitimate 'title defences' should we not go
back further than the ABC gangs and who they thought should or
should no be a credible contender.

Lew Joslin... was he an exhibition ? or if he had of beaten Champion
Fitzsimmons would he have won the title?

John Finegan ... Joe Kennedy....Jack Munroe
All top tier contenders for Jeffries.

Pat Callahan.... a great defence by Marvin Hart.

Jim O'brien....James J Walker...Jack Palmer...Jem Roche...Jewey Smith...
Bill Squires and his two shots.... All top tier contenders for Tommy Burns
a tough SOB no doubt but he gets a lot of praise for his supposed
great reign.

Tony Ross..Jack Murray.... for Jack Johnson...granted he did have
a lot of politics to contend with during this period.


I just find it interesting that the more modern champs who are in
many ways victims of the modern era of ABCs, get so much condemnation
for their defences against what many consider to be soft touches...
compared to their contemporary peers no doubt they are just that.

But the truth of the matter... in 1905 a Scott Frank most likely would have
been the HW champion of the World or a more credible contender for
the title than what some of these men faced.

[sweetsci]

Sorry Sweetsci but you're wrong. Ring magazine continued to recognise Ali as champion until he lost to Frazier on March 8th 1971.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Th ... _champions

Hi SteveO -

Interesting. But the Wikipedia entry is revised history. See the original issues from 1970.

The Ring - March 1970
(as of December 31, 1969)

World Champion:
Muhammad Ali
Group 1:
1. Joe Frazier
Group 2:
1. Leotis Martin
2. Jimmy Ellis
3. Mac Foster
4. Oscar Bonavena
5. Sonny Liston
6. Jerry Quarry
7. George Chuvalo
8. Al Jones
9. Henry Cooper
10. Gregorio Peralta

The Ring - April 1970
(as of February 15, 1970)

World Champion:
Muhammad Ali
1. Joe Frazier
2. Leotis Martin
3. Jimmy Ellis
4. Mac Foster
5. Oscar Bonavena
6. Sonny Liston
7. Jerry Quarry
8. George Chuvalo
9. Al Jones
10. Henry Coooper

The Ring - May 1970
(as of March 15, 1970)

World Champion:
Joe Frazier
1. Leotis Martin
2. Jimmy Ellis
3. Mac Foster
4. Oscar Bonavena
5. Sonny Liston
6. Jerry Quarry
7. George Chuvalo
8. Al Jones
9. Henry Coooper
10. Jose Ibar Urtain

Also to take issue with the Wikipedia entry, Ring recognized Larry Holmes as world champion after the March 1980 Weaver - Tate fight, stating that WBC champ Holmes recently had a win over WBA champ Weaver. It seems an arbitrary way of recognizing a champion, but that's what Ring did at the time. Ali had retired and #1 Holmes beat #2 Weaver, albeit 9 months prior.

The Ring - May 1980
March 1, 1980

Champion:
title vacant
1. Larry Holmes (WBC)
2. John Tate (WBA)
3. Mike Weaver
4. Gerrie Coetzee
5. Earnie Shavers
6. Leroy Jones
7. Leon Spinks
8. Gerry Cooney
9. Michael Dokes
10. Jimmy Young
11. Scott LeDoux
12. Mike Koranicki
13. Osvaldo Ocasio
14. Marty Monroe
15. Willie Shannon

The Ring - June 1980
April 1, 1980

Champion:
Larry Holmes (WBC)
1. Mike Weaver (WBA)
2. John Tate
3. Gerrie Coetzee
4. Michael Dokes
5. Gerry Cooney
6. Leroy Jones
7. Bernardo Mercado
8. Leon Spinks
9. Scott LeDoux
10. Jimmy Young
11. Earnie Shavers
12. Muhammad Ali
13. Eddie Lopez
14. Osvaldo Ocasio
15. Greg Page

That said, at the time of the Holmes - Weaver fight, Ring still recognized Ali as champ, Holmes as #1 contender, while Weaver was ranked at #8.

The Ring - August 1979
as of May 31, 1979

Champion: Muhammad Ali
1. Larry Holmes (WBC)
2. Leon Spinks
3. Kallie Knoetze
4. Earnie Shavers
5. Lorenzo Zanon
6. Alfredo Evangelista
7. Ken Norton
8. Mike Weaver
9. Gerrie Coetzee
10. John Tate

So Larry Holmes number of defenses is really up to interpretation. Do we count all fights after we got the WBC belt from Norton? Do we count from Ring's at-the-time April 1, 1980 recognition of Holmes? Do we count from the Ali fight? And, for that matter, to bring this thread back to it's original subject, do we count the Marvis Frazier fight as a defense? I think it's up to the individual fan as to how they want to interpret the situation.

Since I've got my ratings document open, here's Ring's ratings going into the Holmes - Frazier fight. IMO Frazier was a qualified challenger (and more qualified than many) and I choose to recognized Holmes - Frazier as a title fight.

The Ring - December 1983
(as of November 1, 1983)

World Champion:
Larry Holmes (WBC)
1. Gerrie Coetzee (WBA)
2. Greg Page
3. Michael Dokes
4. Pinklon Thomas
5. Tim Witherspoon
6. Mike Weaver
7. David Bey
8. John Tate
9. Trevor Berbick
10. Marvis Frazier
11. James Broad
12. Frank Bruno
(tie). Gerry Cooney
14. Renaldo Snipes
(tie). Alfredo Evangelista

[sweetsci]

May 1, 1967

The World Boxing Association 'stripped' Muhammad Ali on May 1, 1967.

A Magazine does not make Boxing Rules, they are only supposed to report results, and offer an opinion
and print articles.

This was now the '3rd-Time' that the 'Honest and Reliable' WBA stripped Cassius Clay.

True - we shouldn't put all of our stock into any magazine. But The Ring historically has had more credence in naming champions and offering opinions on fighters' abilities via rankings than those honest and reliable sanctioning bodies.

(Granted, the US Championship era is a black mark on The Ring's history, but we've seen (arguably) worse shenanigans by the governing bodies.)

3rd time the WBA stripped Ali / Clay? Okay: 1st for signing for Liston rematch in 1964. 2nd: For refusing induction in 1967. 3rd: ?

Looking at it through the WBA's eyes, Ali was a four-time heavyweight champion.

[SteveO]

Yes, and Ali was a three time LINEAL champion - something no other heavyweight has achieved.

[Bobbyptsd]

Stripping and Defrocked

The World Boxing Association 'stripped' Cassius Clay three times from 1964 thru 1967.

They also criticized Ring Magazine for recognizing him as a Champion from April 1967 thru 1969.

The WBC also stripped Muhammad Ali.

I believe that is some kind of 'Record'.

Ahh yes, when it's about Ali the WBC suddenly has credibility

It's "meaningless" in that what some garbage alphabet soup "organization" sanctions or not "doesn't matter". What "matters", are the fights and "fighters" themselves.

Il Duce- ''I forgot to take my pills, and developed an unhealthy obsession with Muhammad Ali, so much so that I forgot his name, or any idea on how to use quotations correctly."

Seriously though, it(Holmes/Frazier) was a title defense. The champion fought someone, so can't see how it could really be otherwise, unless we pretend it didn't happen.

[Controversial]

Seriously though, it(Holmes/Frazier) was a title defense. The champion fought someone, so can't see how it could really be otherwise, unless we pretend it didn't happen.

Albeit being a "10 round" world title fight against an un-ranked opponent :-)

[SteveO]

Albeit being a "10 round" world title fight against an un-ranked opponent :-)

Yep. Like it or not!

[drunkenpiper36]

I only credit him as having 19, but there are some who say 20 due to his claim to lineage. But that doesn't hold much water with me. You're either holding a title or you're not. And defending a belt has just as much to do with being champion as winning it.

[Controversial]

The WBC refused to sanction the Holmes and Marvis Frazier fight as they wanted Holmes to fight Greg Page. Holmes relinquished his WBC belt after fighting Frazier and accepted the newly created IBF belt and champion status. So how does the Frazier fight count as a title defence when the WBC didn't sanction it? Boxrec doesn't show it as a title fight yet Holmes is always credited as having 20 title defences?

'It Was A Television Organized Championship Bout'

To justify the $3,100,000 Fight Purse for Larry Holmes, the 'non-title' bout had to be a 12-Rounder {Championship Type}.

Larry had signed a 'Two-Bout Deal' with NBC-TV.

So boxrec has it wrong, it lists it as a 10 round fight?

[Controversial]

Albeit being a "10 round" world title fight against an un-ranked opponent :-)

Yep. Like it or not!

Makes no odds to me, just interested in the thinking behind it. So are non-title bouts allowed in the HW division? To me the only difference between Frazier and Johnny Davis is that Davis had a crap record, so this sort of justifies it being a non-title fight. Does it matter if the are unranked or does it always have to be a 12 round fight to be classed as a world title distance (obviously 15 in the older days)?

[Controversial]

Chuck Hull, Ring Announcer stated that it was a '12-Round Bout'

Yes just heard it, interestingly the announcer never mentioned that it was for the title though? Plus Frazier not introduced as a challenger although Holmes was described as current WBC world champion but that was it. No sign of the belt either that I can see.

Introduced as "The main event of the evening, 12 rounds of boxing in the heavyweight division"

The result at the end Holmes was pronounced "still heavyweight champion of the world".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRrvu-PXYzY

[Giancarlo]

I always thought it was scheduled for 12 rounds.

Not sure why Boxrec shows it as 10.

[Tuan_Jim]

If Marvis Frazier had been a Don King heavyweight you can bet your life that fight would have been for the WBC title.

There is a long, long list of unqualified boxers challenging Don King-controlled WBC champions in WBC world title fights.

[ronnyrains]

Ring Magazine had Joe Frazier as its CHAMPION after the Jimmy Ellis bout 2/16/70. Ali had relinquished his crown, I was getting the boxing magazines then, We had a monthly subscription.It was in all the Ring Record books, right there in black and white, now you look on Ring heavyweight history, it was not till 3/8/71 that Smokin Joe beats Ali for the title! Not so, nobody in that Building had Ali as the World Champion entering that building that nite including Muhammad, Joe Frazier entered that Arena the undisputed heavyweight Champion.

How they change boxing history with one sweep of a pen or computer is beyond me. GO WITH HISTORY HOW IT REALLY WAS! I'm yelling here. Are the Dodgers in Baseball gonna be known as the world champions 2010 2012 and 2014 because they paid for them in advance? didn't happen!

[drunkenpiper36]

Ring Magazine had Joe Frazier as its CHAMPION after the Jimmy Ellis bout 2/16/70. Ali had relinquished his crown, I was getting the boxing magazines then, We had a monthly subscription.It was in all the Ring Record books, right there in black and white, now you look on Ring heavyweight history, it was not till 3/8/71 that Smokin Joe beats Ali for the title! Not so, nobody in that Building had Ali as the World Champion entering that building that nite including Muhammad, Joe Frazier entered that Arena the undisputed heavyweight Champion.

I agree. Titles are won by beating the best "available" opposition out there. If a champion is stripped, retires, falls off the face of the earth, whatever, then the next guy in line gets it. Its the same reason why I felt Mike Tyson was already the champion when he met Spinks in June of 1988.

[Broomhall]

If Marvis Frazier had been a Don King heavyweight you can bet your life that fight would have been for the WBC title.

There is a long, long list of unqualified boxers challenging Don King-controlled WBC champions in WBC world title fights.

There is a long list of unqualified challengers for the world heavyweight title in most eras. Dont just pick on King.

[Ezzard]

When a man like Holmes has the title you can't just strip him because you don't like the colour of his shorts. Or in another division, because you want to give the title to Roy Jones without him having to leave the country. Or because some guy provides bigger sanctioning fees to the organisation.

If a guy cannot fight because of the law then that's different.

But Holmes was the champion. If Marvis had won then what? It was an exhibition?

Mike Spinks beat the champion and was still fighting. He was the man until he retired or was beaten.

[ronnyrains]

When a man like Holmes has the title you can't just strip him because you don't like the colour of his shorts. Or in another division, because you want to give the title to Roy Jones without him having to leave the country. Or because some guy provides bigger sanctioning fees to the organisation.

If a guy cannot fight because of the law then that's different.

But Holmes was the champion. If Marvis had won then what? It was an exhibition?

Mike Spinks beat the champion and was still fighting. He was the man until he retired or was beaten.

I agree 100 % with that, Marvis Frazier Was not exactly a slouch of no kind! So real Exhibitions ALI-COOPMANS, ALI-DUNN, ALI-EVANGELISTA, FRAZIER-DANIELS, FRAZIER-STANDER, FRAZIER-ZYGLEWICZ, FOREMAN-ROMAN were all "title fights?

[Ezzard]

All champs have had money making fights. I don't mind that as long as they are taking on the top contenders too.

[ronnyrains]

All champs have had money making fights. I don't mind that as long as they are taking on the top contenders too.

yes ALI TOOK ON THE WHOS WHO OF EVERYBODY AT EVERYTIME SOME TWO OR THREE TIMES

[BoxBuzz]

I just don't think that the belts in that case were the "deciders".

He was the champ, he fought, he won, it was recorded as a pro fight.

Thus.... the genuine Championship defended

on a tech note, the WBC strap.... was not defended.

But who cares about that?

[Ezzard]

Buzz hits the bullseye

[ImranSarwar]

Yes, the WBA couldn't wait to find excuses to srtip Ali of their belt TWICE but it didn't matter - they are just a sanctioning body and he was still lineal champion 'the man who beat the man'. If we're talking sanctioning bodies well the WBC, Ring Magazine, the EBU and the BBBC etc all continued to recognise him as champion until he announced his retirement on February 3rd 1970 - even then the 'Ring' continued to recognise him until he lost to Joe Frazier.

^^^^^MORE PROOF of the "DUMB LINE" Ring magazine has ALWAYS brought forward w/THEIR IDEAS of who owns what!

[ronnyrains]

Yes, the WBA couldn't wait to find excuses to srtip Ali of their belt TWICE but it didn't matter - they are just a sanctioning body and he was still lineal champion 'the man who beat the man'. If we're talking sanctioning bodies well the WBC, Ring Magazine, the EBU and the BBBC etc all continued to recognise him as champion until he announced his retirement on February 3rd 1970 - even then the 'Ring' continued to recognise him until he lost to Joe Frazier.

^^^^^MORE PROOF of the "DUMB LINE" Ring magazine has ALWAYS brought forward w/THEIR IDEAS of who owns what!

3/15/70 Joe Frazier WAS Champion for Ring Magazine. THEY CHANGED HISTORY NOW AND SAY NO!-Even the Ring record books had Frazier from 2/16/70 to his loss to Foreman in 1973. the Ratings clearly Show Frazier, however I agree Ali beat them all and was the Champion. I consider Joe from 2/16/70 only because Ali relinquished the title then.