Earnie Shavers v. Nikolay Valuev

[SamWise72]

I'm asking you why you think they were better than Shavers, my why they were worthy in their own right. Vidoz had no wins of significance, Etienne one, though it hardly compares to stopping Norton in one.

[polecateddy]

I'm asking you why you think they were better than Shavers, my why they were worthy in their own right. Vidoz had no wins of significance, Etienne one, though it hardly compares to stopping Norton in one.

Overall they obviously weren't a notable, but both Etienne shared Shavers chin, and Vidoz had better stamina, (and probably skills). Yet were stopped.

[SamWise72]

Ok, well, I don't buy that beating Cliff Etienne means you can beat Earnie Shavers, but I can buy that my belief that Earn would have too much strength for Valuev to just lean him out of the fight could be wrong.

[polecateddy]

Ok, well, I don't buy that beating Cliff Etienne means you can beat Earnie Shavers, but I can buy that my belief that Earn would have too much strength for Valuev to just lean him out of the fight could be wrong.

Well old Cobb managed just fine didn't he.

[Ambling Alp II]

I think you got this mixed up. Shavers was the old man and Cobb was in his prime when they fought.
Eitenne had a glass jaw. Shavers certainly didn't have a glass jaw. It wasn't rock solid, but it was durable enough to stand up to Valuev's pillow punching.

[drunkenpiper36]

I think you got this mixed up. Shavers was the old man and Cobb was in his prime when they fought.
Eitenne had a glass jaw. Shavers certainly didn't have a glass jaw. It wasn't rock solid, but it was durable enough to stand up to Valuev's pillow punching.

I don't think its written in stone either way. Shavers might have forced a stoppage or somehow got lucky with a decision. Then again, Valuev may have worn him out while keeping him at bay with his collosal reach. There's just no telling. As for Valuev being a soft hitter as you say, it should be noted that he had some pretty good snap to his shots earlier in his career, before joint and other health issues began to take their toll from about 2007 onward. overall Valuev wasn't as bad as many make him out to be and Shavers wasn't perfect either. Fight could have gone either way.

[BoxBuzz]

For me this great big guy was there to be hit. And that was what Shavers could do. Valuev had reach, but I'm not sure he can keep this particular fighter at bay. There is simply too much target for the hardest hitting HW of all time.

He would likely retire Valuev... and I mean career wise...because he is going to hit this big guy a lot. His jab is not going to keep Shaver's at bay enough to give him the advantage. And where ever Shavers hits you he hurts you.

What was Valuev's defining fight? Ruiz? Ernie was not interested in clinching or hugging.....and like I say....I don't see how Valuev gets out of the way...or keeps him at a distance...which as you describe..would be his best chance. But his best chance is not good enough.

I.M.H.O.

[drunkenpiper36]

For me this great big guy was there to be hit. And that was what Shavers could do. Valuev had reach, but I'm not sure he can keep this particular fighter at bay. There is simply too much target for the hardest hitting HW of all time.

He would likely retire Valuev... and I mean career wise...because he is going to hit this big guy a lot. His jab is not going to keep Shaver's at bay enough to give him the advantage. And where ever Shavers hits you he hurts you.

What was Valuev's defining fight? Ruiz? Ernie was not interested in clinching or hugging.....and like I say....I don't see how Valuev gets out of the way...or keeps him at a distance...which as you describe..would be his best chance. But his best chance is not good enough.

I.M.H.O.

A prime Earnie Shavers was decked and decisioned by Bob Stallings who had no real skill, wasn't very elusive, and had lost more than his fair share of fights. I'm not completely disregarding his chances of beating Valuev but this " well if Ruiz was his best opponent" crap works both ways.

[BoxBuzz]

A bad day at the office...

A good day at the office, and another perspective:....might as well balance this with having a look see at the Roy Tiger Williams bout. I see nothing but trouble for a great big guy who can barely get out of his own way vs having to get out of Ernie's way. His punches are going to wear this giant down, Valuev never felt anyone close this level of puncher. And I think we both would agree, Valuev is not going to knock Shavers out if Roy Williams couldn't do it. Quarry managed the trick based on his quick assertive and surprising speed. (Not in Valuev's inventory of options).

Maybe we would learn that Valuev could take it, but there is nothing in Valuev's record to base it on. And I'm having a hard time picturing his long jab as the pay dirt others want to portray it as in this encounter.

I might put my money on Carnera over Valuev and that's without the mob's influence.

[drunkenpiper36]

A bad day at the office...

A good day at the office, and another perspective:....might as well balance this with having a look see at the Roy Tiger Williams bout. I see nothing but trouble for a great big guy who can barely get out of his own way vs having to get out of Ernie's way. His punches are going to wear this giant down, Valuev never felt anyone close this level of puncher. And I think we both would agree, Valuev is not going to knock Shavers out if Roy Williams couldn't do it. Quarry managed the trick based on his quick assertive and surprising speed. (Not in Valuev's inventory of options).

Maybe we would learn that Valuev could take it, but there is nothing in Valuev's record to base it on. And I'm having a hard time picturing his long jab as the pay dirt others want to portray it as in this encounter.

I might put my money on Carnera over Valuev and that's without the mob's influence.

I never said anything about Jerry Quarry.. I referenced Shavers' loss to Bob Stallings - A journeyman who at that point in his career had lost more fights than he had won, had no skill, no power, had been stopped around 6 times, yet both decked and decisioned Shavers who was more or less in his prime. Okay I know, you're probably going to say " Earnie's hand was broken" or " Stallings would have beaten Valuev with his pinky finger." If those are your responses then I won't bother arguing the matter any further. Roy Williams was an average contender at best and had lost to lesser fighters during his travels. Valuev is slower than a snail and not so powerful for a big guy. But prior to his acquiring arthritis and joint problems later in his career, guys were dropping like flies. Sure he never got hit by anyone who hit as hard as Shavers, but then we never saw him get hurt by anyone period, nor even decked or in serious trouble. How many guys has Earnie ever finished who were known for their durability? Yes he's hurt and Ko'd plenty of guys, but has he ever shown the skill or the mental conviction needed to finish a truly durable opponent? How many times has a gassed in fights or dropped decisions? Who was his largest opponent and what was the outcome? Again, I'm not saying that Shavers wouldn't beat Valuev with any certainty. But for me its going to take a bit more than just a big punch with an average chin, crap stamina and middle of the road skills to beat one of the largest men of all time who was never hurt or decked in 50 pro fights and defended a world title several times.

[BoxBuzz]

Well, that's a well expressed opinion.

[drunkenpiper36]

Well, that's a well expressed opinion.

Thank you sir and likewise with your own opinion. One thing about these fantasy arguments, as that none of us will ever know

[gregor]

I think Shavers stops him.

People are overestimating Valuev's chin. True, it was really good, but the fact tha he was never down has a lot to do also with the quality of opponents he fought most of his career... and he was definitely hurt on several occasions (Haye, Bidenko). He was also quite easy to hit, so Shavers would land something big eventually.

[BoxBuzz]

Yep....and my guess is .....TIMBERRRR!!!

[drunkenpiper36]

LOL.. And his faith was rekindled.

[Ambling Alp II]

I think the Stallings loss is a fair criticism of Shavers. However, if you look at Shavers' career, you see that it was the exception to the rule.
Who did Shavers stop that durable? Williams was never stopped by anyone else. Bugner was very durable, and Shavers stopped him in two. Young, Norton, and Ellis weren't quite in their primes, but still not a lot of guys would have stopped them.

No he didn't stop Ali or Holmes, but if he lands anything like that on Valuev, would you really bet against Valuev going down? And he would be much more likely to land several shots like this against Valuev.

I think the stamina criticism way overdone. Shavers went 15 with Ali. Way over the hill, he decked Tillis late in their fight.

Valuev had little defense, Shavers would hit almost at will. He didn't have enough power to stop Shavers or the jab to keep him away. Nothing is for certain in boxing, but Shavers would have been a very good bet.

[drunkenpiper36]

A respectable post. But Norton and Ellis were NEVER known for having sturdy chins and as you say, both were washed up to the point of even being shot. Joe Bugner had been retired for two and half years and went up against Shavers his first fight out. That ended in a cut stoppage. Roy Williams may be the only valid mention, but then again, how many big punchers did he ever face? The guys who were either losing or winning against him were not much known for their power. Shavers may well be the hardest puncher that ever lived. He certainly has good testimonies from Holmes, Ali and Young as making them see stars more than anyone else. But he wasn't Joe Louis in the finishing department. He might have landed enough on Valuev to make him quit, but its no safe bet. Poor stamina, shaky chin and skills that were average at best aren't a good recipe for beating a large durable boxer.

[Tomasino]

I'd have picked Shavers, simply because I do to think Valuev has been hit like Ernie can. It's not clear cut though, there have been some good arguments put forward against Shavers, which I didn't quite expect.

[Ambling Alp II]

A respectable post. But Norton and Ellis were NEVER known for having sturdy chins and as you say, both were washed up to the point of even being shot. Joe Bugner had been retired for two and half years and went up against Shavers his first fight out. That ended in a cut stoppage. Roy Williams may be the only valid mention, but then again, how many big punchers did he ever face? The guys who were either losing or winning against him were not much known for their power. Shavers may well be the hardest puncher that ever lived. He certainly has good testimonies from Holmes, Ali and Young as making them see stars more than anyone else. But he wasn't Joe Louis in the finishing department. He might have landed enough on Valuev to make him quit, but its no safe bet. Poor stamina, shaky chin and skills that were average at best aren't a good recipe for beating a large durable boxer.

Norton had an underrated chin; I never heard anyone question it until after his career was over. Ellis had a good chin as well. The only fighter to stop Norton in his prime and Frazier and Ali were the only other fighters to stop Ellis.
I was saying they were past their best, but they were not shot. Norton was just 9 months past his great fight with Holmes.

I guess what it comes down to is the degree that you are taking things:
Shavers did not have poor stamina; the evidence does not support that. He won 10 round decisions, scored late ko's, went 15 rounds with Ali and 12 with Holmes.
Shavers didn't have a shaky chin either; it wasn't great but it was decent.
Average skillls? Maybe. But really, how much better was Valuev? He wasn't exactly a highly skilled fighter.

Ellis, Young, Norton, Bugner weren't at their best, but they were far from their worst. Roy Williams was not great but was decent.
What do we really have with Valuev? Who did ever beat that was even close to as good as Shavers? Ruiz? He needed the judges to bail him out against a 46 year old Holyfield.

[polecateddy]

A respectable post. But Norton and Ellis were NEVER known for having sturdy chins and as you say, both were washed up to the point of even being shot. Joe Bugner had been retired for two and half years and went up against Shavers his first fight out. That ended in a cut stoppage. Roy Williams may be the only valid mention, but then again, how many big punchers did he ever face? The guys who were either losing or winning against him were not much known for their power. Shavers may well be the hardest puncher that ever lived. He certainly has good testimonies from Holmes, Ali and Young as making them see stars more than anyone else. But he wasn't Joe Louis in the finishing department. He might have landed enough on Valuev to make him quit, but its no safe bet. Poor stamina, shaky chin and skills that were average at best aren't a good recipe for beating a large durable boxer.

Norton had an underrated chin; I never heard anyone question it until after his career was over. Ellis had a good chin as well. The only fighter to stop Norton in his prime and Frazier and Ali were the only other fighters to stop Ellis.
I was saying they were past their best, but they were not shot. Norton was just 9 months past his great fight with Holmes.

I guess what it comes down to is the degree that you are taking things:
Shavers did not have poor stamina; the evidence does not support that. He won 10 round decisions, scored late ko's, went 15 rounds with Ali and 12 with Holmes.
Shavers didn't have a shaky chin either; it wasn't great but it was decent.
Average skillls? Maybe. But really, how much better was Valuev? He wasn't exactly a highly skilled fighter.

Valuev had serious joint issues by Holyfield. All he wanted to go was retire but he kept winning.

Ellis, Young, Norton, Bugner weren't at their best, but they were far from their worst. Roy Williams was not great but was decent.
What do we really have with Valuev? Who did ever beat that was even close to as good as Shavers? Ruiz? He needed the judges to bail him out against a 46 year old Holyfield.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I'm asking you why you think they were better than Shavers, my why they were worthy in their own right. Vidoz had no wins of significance, Etienne one, though it hardly compares to stopping Norton in one.

Overall they obviously weren't a notable, but both Etienne shared Shavers chin, and Vidoz had better stamina, (and probably skills). Yet were stopped.

I saw you posted and figured I would check the comedy. You delivered.

[polecateddy]

I'm asking you why you think they were better than Shavers, my why they were worthy in their own right. Vidoz had no wins of significance, Etienne one, though it hardly compares to stopping Norton in one.

Overall they obviously weren't a notable, but both Etienne shared Shavers chin, and Vidoz had better stamina, (and probably skills). Yet were stopped.

I saw you posted and figured I would check the comedy. You delivered.

That's correct. No issues with those statements.

[drunkenpiper36]

A respectable post. But Norton and Ellis were NEVER known for having sturdy chins and as you say, both were washed up to the point of even being shot. Joe Bugner had been retired for two and half years and went up against Shavers his first fight out. That ended in a cut stoppage. Roy Williams may be the only valid mention, but then again, how many big punchers did he ever face? The guys who were either losing or winning against him were not much known for their power. Shavers may well be the hardest puncher that ever lived. He certainly has good testimonies from Holmes, Ali and Young as making them see stars more than anyone else. But he wasn't Joe Louis in the finishing department. He might have landed enough on Valuev to make him quit, but its no safe bet. Poor stamina, shaky chin and skills that were average at best aren't a good recipe for beating a large durable boxer.

Norton had an underrated chin; I never heard anyone question it until after his career was over. Ellis had a good chin as well. The only fighter to stop Norton in his prime and Frazier and Ali were the only other fighters to stop Ellis.
I was saying they were past their best, but they were not shot. Norton was just 9 months past his great fight with Holmes.

I guess what it comes down to is the degree that you are taking things:
Shavers did not have poor stamina; the evidence does not support that. He won 10 round decisions, scored late ko's, went 15 rounds with Ali and 12 with Holmes.
Shavers didn't have a shaky chin either; it wasn't great but it was decent.
Average skillls? Maybe. But really, how much better was Valuev? He wasn't exactly a highly skilled fighter.

Ellis, Young, Norton, Bugner weren't at their best, but they were far from their worst. Roy Williams was not great but was decent.
What do we really have with Valuev? Who did ever beat that was even close to as good as Shavers? Ruiz? He needed the judges to bail him out against a 46 year old Holyfield.

I suppose we should just leave this debate at a standstill. Not gonna disagree with any of your points ( which are very good ) but nor will I concede the ones I've made. I'm thinking this fight is a tossup, but thank God for boxing fans it never happened, because in all likelihood it would be a terrible match.

[Ambling Alp II]

Fair enough. We can't all agree on everything and you debated in a classy way even if I didn't agree with all of your points. This topic has been argued for long enough. I'm sure we will agree on some things in the future.

[drunkenpiper36]

Fair enough. We can't all agree on everything and you debated in a classy way even if I didn't agree with all of your points. This topic has been argued for long enough. I'm sure we will agree on some things in the future.