Sugar Ray Leonard ----

[The Great John L]

There was a 3rd fight with Duran, so I guess you mean one a little closer in time to their first 2 fights.

[elmersalsa]

Adding to my points above, he was probably THE MOST COMPLETE FIGHTER that I have ever seen in my lifetime.

[man]

There was a 3rd fight with Duran, so I guess you mean one a little closer in time to their first 2 fights.

i always felt that both the hearns and the
duran rematches came to late to, in a way,
count.

[The Great John L]

There was a 3rd fight with Duran, so I guess you mean one a little closer in time to their first 2 fights.

i always felt that both the hearns and the
duran rematches came to late to, in a way,
count.

Yes that what I assume elmer meant.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Still can't believe people say Leonard didn't give rematches. It takes two to tangle. Leonard is expected to take on all the top fighters multiple times yet the other top fighters of his era didn't, even though they didn't miss time due to injury. Yet somehow it's Leonard who gets the criticism for this.

He didn't give Hagler a rematch . . . and that was one rematch everybody wanted.

It takes two to tangle. I saw him interviewed several times in the days and weeks after the fight. He would always be asked if he wanted a rematch. He always hemmed and hawed. Never heard him say he wanted one.

He was pissed about the decision, he definitely pursued a rematch and Leonard was unwilling to give him one.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

A small point...The first Leonard-Hearns fight was scheduled for fifteen, That was the fight where Angelo Dundee told SRL prior to the start of the fourteenth round, who was behind on points "you're blowing it, son" and he went out and stopped him in the next round.

I make SRL even money against any welterweight who ever lived. Decent chin, lightning fast, good heart, and could crack...

Decent chin & Good heart? He was absolutely upper echelon in both of those categories.

As for the question from the OP.

I think he rates with Armstrong, Gavilan & Griffith in the top 5.

One of the greatest fighters of all time(top 15-30), one of the most disingenuous personalities of all time. Shrewd negotiator that wasn't fond of rematches and forever my most hated fighter.

He didn't dominate his own, if you mean being one of the best in the world? Absolutely in any era.

I like when people can give honest unbiased opinions on fighters they don't like, its a rare quality.

Thank You, I'm so opinionated that sometimes that is misconstrued as bias. Love or hate doesn't affect my ability to rate.

[Ezzard]

I think the Hearns rematch counts as they were both at similar points in their career. The Duran fight was a money maker for them both but it was never going to be competitive.

[raylawpc]

Still can't believe people say Leonard didn't give rematches. It takes two to tangle. Leonard is expected to take on all the top fighters multiple times yet the other top fighters of his era didn't, even though they didn't miss time due to injury. Yet somehow it's Leonard who gets the criticism for this.

He didn't give Hagler a rematch . . . and that was one rematch everybody wanted.

It takes two to tangle. I saw him interviewed several times in the days and weeks after the fight. He would always be asked if he wanted a rematch. He always hemmed and hawed. Never heard him say he wanted one.

That's not my recollection . . . .

[Ambling Alp II]

It is mine. He dodged the question in several interviews not long after the fight. If he really wanted a rematch, he would have been screaming for one and forced Leonard's hand.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

It was impossible to force Leonard's hand. He tried all he could, after a year he gave up.

[Ambling Alp II]

Nonsense.
If he was trying as hard as he could to get a rematch, why didn't he simply say yes when asked point blank over and over if he wanted a rematch?

If he really wanted a rematch so badly, he would have been screaming for one. He certainly had the platform to do so.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

[drunkenpiper36]

I think the Hearns rematch counts as they were both at similar points in their career.

It has to count. But I disagree that this was an even playing field. Leonard had fought only three times over the previous seven years, while Hearns had fought fourteen times within the same duration. Tommy had also spent quite a bit of time in the higher weight classes since their last meeting and was noticeably stronger along with being two and half years younger. Leonard was showing some of the signs of ring rust and deterioration in the Lalonde fight.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Much like Holyfield/Tyson the revisionists like to change what was going on. The only reason Tommy got that fight is because Leonard thought he was finished. And the 162 pound stipulation was clearly in Ray's favor. Then he got his ass whipped.

[Seamus]

Ray had the 2 best rounds of the fight, and would have had a shot at a stoppage in the 12th if not for all the holding Tommy got away with.

[raylawpc]

It is mine. He dodged the question in several interviews not long after the fight. If he really wanted a rematch, he would have been screaming for one and forced Leonard's hand.

Then your recollection would be incorrect. Leonard retired the next month without ever entering into negotiations for the rematch. Leonard knew he was lucky to get the decision . . .

[Tomasino]

Nonsense.
If he was trying as hard as he could to get a rematch, why didn't he simply say yes when asked point blank over and over if he wanted a rematch?

If he really wanted a rematch so badly, he would have been screaming for one. He certainly had the platform to do so.

Hagler wasn't the type to scream for anything. He wanted a rematch badly and Leonard, and indeed the rest of the world, knew it.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Ray had the 2 best rounds of the fight, and would have had a shot at a stoppage in the 12th if not for all the holding Tommy got away with.

Ray got his ass whipped. Though he did, once again, exhibit a lot of courage.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Nonsense.
If he was trying as hard as he could to get a rematch, why didn't he simply say yes when asked point blank over and over if he wanted a rematch?

If he really wanted a rematch so badly, he would have been screaming for one. He certainly had the platform to do so.

Hagler wasn't the type to scream for anything. He wanted a rematch badly and Leonard, and indeed the rest of the world, knew it.

Shhhh, you'll shatter Alp's glass house where leonard & Ali are Gods. This is extreme even for his bias. The first time I've ever heard anyone claim Hagler didn't want a rematch.

[The Great John L]

Then your recollection would be incorrect. Leonard retired the next month without ever entering into negotiations for the rematch. Leonard knew he was lucky to get the decision . . .

This is what I recall as well.

[Ambling Alp II]

Nonsense.
If he was trying as hard as he could to get a rematch, why didn't he simply say yes when asked point blank over and over if he wanted a rematch?

If he really wanted a rematch so badly, he would have been screaming for one. He certainly had the platform to do so.

Hagler wasn't the type to scream for anything. He wanted a rematch badly and Leonard, and indeed the rest of the world, knew it.

Shhhh, you'll shatter Alp's glass house where leonard & Ali are Gods. This is extreme even for his bias. The first time I've ever heard anyone claim Hagler didn't want a rematch.

I'm biased?
Lets review:
You are a fan of saad Muhammad, and somehow you had him winning the Jerry Martin fight when it was stopped prematurely. Somehow, Saad was shot before the first fight that he lost to Qawi.

You like Whitaker-So not only did he deserve the decison vs DLH, you had Whitaker winning by 5 points. 5 points!

One of my favorites-Leonard is your least favorite fighter, so you had Duran winning the last round of the 2nd Duran-Leonard fight before he quit. Wow.

Now on this thread, not only do you think Hearns (your favorite fighter) kicked Leonard ass, (Despite the fact that Leonard hurt Hearns more often and landed more punches) but now the weight that they fought at (each weighed in at 162, and could have weighed in at 164) favored Leonard, who only once had fought an opponent who weighed 160?
Unbelievable.
You love to throw out the bias argument, yet your own comments are often biased.

[Ambling Alp II]

It is mine. He dodged the question in several interviews not long after the fight. If he really wanted a rematch, he would have been screaming for one and forced Leonard's hand.

Then your recollection would be incorrect. Leonard retired the next month without ever entering into negotiations for the rematch. Leonard knew he was lucky to get the decision . . .

He knew that he was lucky to get the decision? Please. Not only do you think Hagler should have the decison, now you know what Leonard was thinking?

Again, if Hagler wanted the rematch so badly, then why did he not simply say so on several occasions when he was asked?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Hagler wasn't the type to scream for anything. He wanted a rematch badly and Leonard, and indeed the rest of the world, knew it.

Shhhh, you'll shatter Alp's glass house where leonard & Ali are Gods. This is extreme even for his bias. The first time I've ever heard anyone claim Hagler didn't want a rematch.

I'm biased?
Lets review:
You are a fan of saad Muhammad, and somehow you had him winning the Jerry Martin fight when it was stopped prematurely. Somehow, Saad was shot before the first fight that he lost to Qawi.

You like Whitaker-So not only did he deserve the decison vs DLH, you had Whitaker winning by 5 points. 5 points!

One of my favorites-Leonard is your least favorite fighter, so you had Duran winning the last round of the 2nd Duran-Leonard fight before he quit. Wow.

Now on this thread, not only do you think Hearns (your favorite fighter) kicked Leonard ass, (Despite the fact that Leonard hurt Hearns more often and landed more punches) but now the weight that they fought at (each weighed in at 162, and could have weighed in at 164) favored Leonard, who only once had fought an opponent who weighed 160?
Unbelievable.
You love to throw out the bias argument, yet your own comments are often biased.

I'm a fan of all kinds of fighters. You've sighted nothing biased from me. Just your typical bellyaching when you get called on your obvious bias when it comes to your two favorite fighters.

I thought Whitaker/Dlh was an easy fight to score. I liked Tito more than Pernell and I thought Oscar clearly beat him.

Saad being finished for the Qawi fights is a common opinion. Though that would have always been a tough style for him.

Leonard was the smaller man, making Hearns cut a few extra pounds was to Tommy's benefit?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

It is mine. He dodged the question in several interviews not long after the fight. If he really wanted a rematch, he would have been screaming for one and forced Leonard's hand.

Then your recollection would be incorrect. Leonard retired the next month without ever entering into negotiations for the rematch. Leonard knew he was lucky to get the decision . . .

Again, if Hagler wanted the rematch so badly, then why did he not simply say so on several occasions when he was asked?

[raylawpc]

It is mine. He dodged the question in several interviews not long after the fight. If he really wanted a rematch, he would have been screaming for one and forced Leonard's hand.

Then your recollection would be incorrect. Leonard retired the next month without ever entering into negotiations for the rematch. Leonard knew he was lucky to get the decision . . .

He knew that he was lucky to get the decision? Please. Not only do you think Hagler should have the decison, now you know what Leonard was thinking?

Again, if Hagler wanted the rematch so badly, then why did he not simply say so on several occasions when he was asked?

Apparently I'm not the only one who knew Leonard's plan was to fool the judges . . . so, yeah, I'd say Leonard knew he was lucky . . .

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