The greatest Middleweight fight?

[Borinken25]

Both at their best I like Hagler to win a close decision. I think Hagler's iron chin would be the difference here because he will get hit but he will fire in return counters that are going to stun Monzon and make him think twice before he goes trading shots with Hagler. Both very even skills but I think Hagler wins close. Greb is the only one I make the favorite against both of them.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

He did look phenomenal against Antuofermo. Good call.

[Bobbyptsd]

Hagler, closer than the Hagler/Lamotta hypothetical, but I still don't think it's all that close. Maybe I should say decisive.

[Syntax Error]

Carlos Monzon

Too big, and too strong.

Carlos was somewhat slow and plodding, but his height {6' 0"} and long reach would have spelled 'TROUBLE' for Marvin Hagler.
And, Carlos was a much rougher inside fighter, especially in the later Rounds.

This would be by far the 'biggest fighter' that Marvin would ever face, as Carlos was rock-solid at 160 lbs.

Over 15-Rounds, Carlos would take 4 of the last 5 Rounds, and win a close Decision {145-143} or 7-5-3 in Rounds.

Marvin Hagler has an extraordinary reach too, plus he was also solid at 160.

I agree with would have been a hard fight.

I've always wavered when weighing these two up.

I used to be staunchly for Hagler, but now I tend to lean towards Monzon, but either way it would have been a close & tough fight whoever would have won it.

[BoxBuzz]

Monzon brings a greater will.......Never would Monzon have the breaks in focus that Marvin showed with SRL and Duran. He never once dropped his focus, or underestimated even for moment the opponent in front of him.

What Duran nearly got away with, and SRL snuck out the back door with, Monzon takes ..straightforward and with no nonsense.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Monzon brings a greater will

[raylawpc]

Monzon brings a greater will

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Nope

[BoxBuzz]

lol.

Anyway....cmon....Hagler lost the SRL fight.....it was his to win...and he didn't step up.
And he nearly let Duran buffalo him into a loss.

These are scenarios you will not find in the Monzon play book.

I would love the odds I feel I would have in terms of taking all the money you would be willing to gamble on this one.

Good thing they did not fight in real time, Or Monzon surely would have sapped not ready for prime time Hagler's "will" so badly that he never would have had the stellar career he ended up having, ..........which he in turn allowed SRL to besmirch.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

lol.

Anyway....cmon....Hagler lost the SRL fight.....it was his to win...and he didn't step up.
And he nearly let Duran buffalo him into a loss.

These are scenarios you will not find in the Monzon play book.

I would love the odds I feel I would have in terms of taking all the money you would be willing to gamble on this one.

Good thing they did not fight in real time, Or Monzon surely would have sapped not ready for prime time Hagler's "will" so badly that he never would have had the stellar career he ended up having, ..........which he in turn allowed SRL to besmirch.

The only accurate statement in this post is that Marvin lost to Leonard.

[BoxBuzz]

lol.

Anyway....cmon....Hagler lost the SRL fight.....it was his to win...and he didn't step up.
And he nearly let Duran buffalo him into a loss.

These are scenarios you will not find in the Monzon play book.

I would love the odds I feel I would have in terms of taking all the money you would be willing to gamble on this one.

Good thing they did not fight in real time, Or Monzon surely would have sapped not ready for prime time Hagler's "will" so badly that he never would have had the stellar career he ended up having, ..........which he in turn allowed SRL to besmirch.

The only accurate statement in this post is that Marvin lost to Leonard.

Ok....but then for the record wouldn't this mean......

*....you WILL find these in the Monzon's play book......Ok where?
*....and he WASN'T buffaloed by Duran? Ok....then what happened?
*I would NOT love the odds?...perhaps because you would not put money down?
*If they would have fought in real time....Monzon would NOT have sapped Hagler?
(Hagler was pretty darn inexperienced at that time don't you think?)
*SRL did NOT besmirch Hagler's reputation? I thought he did kinda sorta. But no?


Anywho......just wanted to be sure this is what you mean.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

- See the Griffith rematch. No different, all time greats give guys problems. If that is something you find shameful, shame on you. Duran would have troubled Carlos too.

- If it was even money I'd bet on Hagler. You'd get no odds from me. You're the one making grandiose claims of victory over something so silly as a perceived crack in Marvin hagler's will.

- It would depend on when they fought. Monzon would never hurt Hagler or take his will. So if that's what you mean by "sapped", it would have never happened.

- No, Hagler's reputation wasn't besmirched in the least. If anything he gained supporters.

[BoxBuzz]

Now that's a well stated opinion.

Not that I agree with much of it.

But I do appreciate the give and take.

But I do think it would be near impossible for Duran or Leonard to look that good against Monzon.

It's clear you see it differently. And yes....that Duran misstep, and his performance against Leonard seems like "will" to me. But maybe there is a better word. I don't think the word is "skill". So I'm at a loss as to how define it. I think he took all the skill he needed in with him in both fights. But neither should have been so close.

The Griffith fight with Monzon was competitive. But it was not as close as the two Hagler fights we are speaking of. In my opinion.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I had Hagler over Duran 10-5, the Griffith fight was at least that close. Leonard won legit imo, but I wouldn't be sending that version of Hagler in against Monzon if it was my decision. He was definitely more hesitant against Roberto than he should have been, while I often cheered against Marvin his will was immense.

[BoxBuzz]

No Disagreement there. Hagler's "resolve" was one of the best, perhaps superlative. I'm thinking Monzon's may have been THE state of the art. I've never meant to be overly stating this, it's about a very thin line that separates these two. I know some (like yourself) will see it inversely...and rightly so.

However, either of them would be my pick to beat Sugar Ray Robinson at Middleweight.

I didn't want to leave this thread without saying something else that strikes a nerve somewhere. lol.

[BCN]

ketchel-papke 2

[Billyjoel]

MONZON undefeated in last 12 years of his fights. And fought nearly all of his title fights in opponents home town.
One of the top 6 fighters of all time.

[BoxBuzz]

MONZON undefeated in last 12 years of his fights. And fought nearly all of his title fights in opponents home town.
One of the top 6 fighters of all time.

Yes.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I'd be more inclined to put a 2 in front of that 6.

[Ezzard]

I had Hagler over Duran 10-5, the Griffith fight was at least that close. Leonard won legit imo, but I wouldn't be sending that version of Hagler in against Monzon if it was my decision. He was definitely more hesitant against Roberto than he should have been, while I often cheered against Marvin his will was immense.

I do understand why you brought it up but...

Griffith was a Middleweight champion with wins over Dick Tiger, Archer and Benvenuti...and solid guys like Don Fullmer and Bogs. Duran was nowhere near this level at 160.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I don't disagree, but he was an older and smaller Middleweight that Monzon was expected to dispose of easily and he didn't. Just another example of a great fighter putting forth a great effort. I don't consider that a negative on Carlos' record, but I was asked to provide an example and I did.

[BoxBuzz]

I'd be more inclined to put a 2 in front of that 6.

Then my suggestion is to be at less of an incline, and aspire to be straight.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I'll work on that as soon as you leave your outlandish bias at the door.

[BoxBuzz]

Ah...I have outlandish bias. Sounds like I'm emoting then.

However I'm not overly impressed with disinterested, mathematical calculating assessments, which shine light on mechanical potentials, while telling us little about the soul, vision, and focused ambition of the operator of the vehicle.

You run the risk of betting on Goliath over David at every opportunity.

Now before you get all flustered and personally affronted....know that I'm practicing humor here. I have been licensed to do so. So don't go attempting this on your own at home. Besides as you can tell...I need the practice.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Your humor is noted, it's as if we're talking about Monzon fighting Pascual Perez. There is no David here, just two Goliath s. Neither would be in my all time top 20, both would be close. I don't think you're biased, just a big fan. I was just following your lead. Amazing how everyone assumes I have no sense of humor, that's all this is about for me.