Froch v Groves II - IBF Order Immediate Rematch

[The_Don1]

Goes from 25% to a 15% situation.

"haha"

but without options, he's winning.

[ThereByTheGrace]

Who would Groves fight if Froch did vacate?

[lefthook82]

How does he go from 25% to 15% Gomez. Aren't you assuming he didn't read the rules?

Froch will see how much of an international superstar he is without his only legitimate belt. There is only one WBA Champ and he already made Froch his b*tch when they last fought

[whiskey]

I will buy you both a shandy if Groves wins.

A half mind, don't want you getting out of order on a full pint.

[jamesmcdonnell]

How does he go from 25% to 15% Gomez. Aren't you assuming he didn't read the rules?

Froch will see how much of an international superstar he is without his only legitimate belt. There is only one WBA Champ and he already made Froch his b*tch when they last fought

This.

It's only a mandatory who gets 25% apparently. If you are outside the top 3, then you get 15% - that's stipulated in the IBF's own rules. As this is a rematch, and that's what he got last time, that's what he gets this time.

Whoever represents Groves has done very well to get the IBF to insist on a rematch.

[The_Don1]

How does he go from 25% to 15% Gomez. Aren't you assuming he didn't read the rules?

Froch will see how much of an international superstar he is without his only legitimate belt. There is only one WBA Champ and he already made Froch his b*tch when they last fought

[JimJim2009]

If 25% of the total purse = £1m, then 15% of same purse = £600,000, meaning the loss is 400k. Gross simplification here as there was a guarantee sum plus PPV cut which Eddie said should add up to £1m+ for George. I'm rounding it out to the nearest million, as I do each time my salary gets paid into the bank at the end of every month

So, by sticking to his guns, George may forfeit the 10% difference which is around 400k. Half of that goes in tax and expenses, and he still has to pay former manager Adam Booth out too, thanks to the BBBC decision on their break-up. So he's not losing 400k, but closer to 150k perhaps (don't pull these figures apart its semi-guess-work I admit based on the info in the public domain!).

So for a gross purse of 600k, he gets the opportunity to fight for the world titles again, against an opponent he is certain he can beat, and if he comes out on top he has no promotional ties at all. The latter bonus comes at a cost of maybe 150k. Cheap at the price, I think. Hatton, Calzaghe, Hamed and Khan all got to the stage in their careers when they wanted more of the cake, instead of their slice of it, as allocated by the manager/promoter. You can't blame George for wanting to avoid signing a promotional contract at this point in time.

[jamesmcdonnell]

This has played into Hearns hands - as he is under no pressure to offer anything more than the 15% if he doesn't want to. If Groves rules himself out of it, then Froch can do whatever he wants and retain his belt.

In some senses, nothing has changed really, except that the pressure has been taken of Froch and Hearns to 'do the right thing.'

Groves was never Froch's mandatory, so they were never under any real pressure to fight groves, except for bragging rights, but now they can go to purse bids, offering 15% and if Groves turns it down, then he looks foolish.

It may be that Groves was more concerned about options than the purse split, which I'm sure we will see shortly by his reaction.

[JimJim2009]

Booth gets 25% until Jan 2015 unless George gets the Board ruling overturned. Has he ?

[jamesmcdonnell]

If 25% of the total purse = £1m, then 15% of same purse = £600,000, meaning the loss is 400k. Gross simplification here as there was a guarantee sum plus PPV cut which Eddie said should add up to £1m+ for George. I'm rounding it out to the nearest million, as I do each time my salary gets paid into the bank at the end of every month

So, by sticking to his guns, George may forfeit the 10% difference which is around 400k. Half of that goes in tax and expenses, and he still has to pay former manager Adam Booth out too, thanks to the BBBC decision on their break-up. So he's not losing 400k, but closer to 150k perhaps (don't pull these figures apart its semi-guess-work I admit based on the info in the public domain!).

So for a gross purse of 600k, he gets the opportunity to fight for the world titles again, against an opponent he is certain he can beat, and if he comes out on top he has no promotional ties at all. The latter bonus comes at a cost of maybe 150k. Cheap at the price, I think. Hatton, Calzaghe, Hamed and Khan all got to the stage in their careers when they wanted more of the cake, instead of their slice of it, as allocated by the manager/promoter. You can't blame George for wanting to avoid signing a promotional contract at this point in time.

Yes, but Calzaghe, Hamed and Hatton had all made a mint by then, and were big stars, same true of Khan, though not to quite the same extent. They really didn't feel they needed a promoter any more - they paved the way for many more fighters to promote their own affairs, but it doesn't always work out.

Haye went it alone at an early stage of his career, with Booth as his able right hand man (or mastermind depending on how you look at it).

Groves is on the cusp of being a big star, but he's not there yet, and he needs a couple of big wins before he gets there.

If he gets a big win over Froch, then the world could be his oyster, but it's a big if.

[JimJim2009]

[quote="jamesmcdonnell"]This has played into Hearns hands - as he is under no pressure to offer anything more than the 15% if he doesn't want to. If Groves rules himself out of it, then Froch can do whatever he wants and retain his belt.

In some senses, nothing has changed really, except that the pressure has been taken of Froch and Hearns to 'do the right thing.'

Not sure about that, looking at the British promotional landscape. Eddie has been on top for the past 2-3 years thanks to top, established fighters jumping to Matchroom, led by Froch. Eddie had his Sky contract extended and needs to keep delivering. It is very likely that Carl Froch will be retiring in the next 12-18 months, one way or the other. It is possible he doesn't win another fight. If Eddie had Groves, that would be fantastic for him, and would help keep Sky happy, by that I mean if Groves becomes world champ.

Eddie wasn't offering George a million quid cos he likes him. The offer was put before the IBF ruling and it had options, which Eddie put in, so he would tie George to Matchroom. This is what George appears to be turning down. The IBF's ruling that the rematch must happen in the next 90 days favours Groves, providing he's happy to take less for the rematch, and avoid signing options.

It's not a total loss for Eddie by any means, he can still stage the rematch, make a profit from it, keep Sky happy, and may well work with George in the future.

[jamesmcdonnell]

This has played into Hearns hands - as he is under no pressure to offer anything more than the 15% if he doesn't want to. If Groves rules himself out of it, then Froch can do whatever he wants and retain his belt.

In some senses, nothing has changed really, except that the pressure has been taken of Froch and Hearns to 'do the right thing.'

Not sure about that, looking at the British promotional landscape. Eddie has been on top for the past 2-3 years thanks to top, established fighters jumping to Matchroom, led by Froch. Eddie had his Sky contract extended and needs to keep delivering. It is very likely that Carl Froch will be retiring in the next 12-18 months, one way or the other. It is possible he doesn't win another fight. If Eddie had Groves, that would be fantastic for him, and would help keep Sky happy, by that I mean if Groves becomes world champ.

Eddie wasn't offering George a million quid cos he likes him. The offer was put before the IBF ruling and it had options, which Eddie put in, so he would tie George to Matchroom. This is what George appears to be turning down. The IBF's ruling that the rematch must happen in the next 90 days favours Groves, providing he's happy to take less for the rematch, and avoid signing options.

It's not a total loss for Eddie by any means, he can still stage the rematch, make a profit from it, keep Sky happy, and may well work with George in the future.

As you say, it largely depends on whether the real issue was 'options' as George hinted, or was simply that Groves thought he was worth a lot more than Eddie or Froch were prepared to pay him.

If it is the former, then I'd expect business to be concluded soon, after a bit of back and forth, if it's the latter, then the fight won't happen as Groves won't accept the new terms or indeed what will probably add up to the same terms, as I'm sure Eddie will just make the purse up to the same as the original deal with guarantee's, PPV cuts, or whatever he needs to make it add up.

[JimJim2009]

On a related note, I can't see Chavez Jnr taking anything like 15% or 25% !!!

If you said to his team the split will be 85% to 15%, he would think that sounds about right to me

[jamesmcdonnell]

On a related note, I can't see Chavez Jnr taking anything like 15% or 25% !!!

If you said to his team the split will be 85% to 15%, he would think that sounds about right to me

Chavez Jr is a pretty big noise over in the U.S, and he has serious TV money backing him - of course he's not going to take that kind of split. However, I'm sure they would be offering quite a lot of money to lure Carl over with his belt.

I'd be wary if I was Froch though, I think they'd do everything in their power to ensure the belt stays there. Could find himself really up against the ref, judges etc, they aren't idiots, they won't be bringing him over just to give him a payday.

Of course, it may well be that all this talk of Chavez Jr, was never anything more than a smoke screen, and that they never intended to fight him anyway. I have some suspicions.

[JimJim2009]

There would have to be an awful lot of money in the pot for Carl to pick up the same purse vs Chavez as he would against Groves. Given Chavez's "need" to also earn several million from the fight, I really don't see it happening. It wouldn't be a PPV fight in America so they're at the mercy of the TV companies and I can see them paying well, but not THAT well. Last time Froch fought over there he got well beaten.

I suspect a bit of bluffing is going on.

[jamesmcdonnell]

There would have to be an awful lot of money in the pot for Carl to pick up the same purse vs Chavez as he would against Groves. Given Chavez's "need" to also earn several million from the fight, I really don't see it happening. It wouldn't be a PPV fight in America so they're at the mercy of the TV companies and I can see them paying well, but not THAT well. Last time Froch fought over there he got well beaten.

I suspect a bit of bluffing is going on.

So do I....

I'm quite enjoying all the sabre rattling going on before this fight, quite entertaining - let's hope it's not the only entertainment we get, and the fight actually happens.

I'll have to get tickets for this one if it happens, or at the least watch it with a big bunch of people somewhere, be a cracking atmosphere.

[crusader]

I don't see Chavez fighting Froch.

[JimJim2009]

Agreed. When the dust settles, a few fundamentals will pave the way forward.

Froch, love him or hate him, is not going to give up the IBF belt. I just cannot see that happening in a million years. The Chavez talk is a bit of a bluff, Chavez has a fight in March and may well lose it. His stock is not high these days.

Groves has lobbied the IBF for a rematch, he's got it, and it has to happen in 90 days.

Sky TV want Froch vs Groves 2 and will stick it on PPV, making everyone richer than they previously were.

I cannot see anything but the obvious happening. Eddie himself says it needs to go on before the summer comes for scheduling reasons.

All parties but Froch want this to happen immediately, and the IBF is now forcing Carl's hand - he faces George next, or else gives up the title.

I think the only hurdle is an obscure one. How can Carl say yes to this fight without looking like he's being forced into a fight he doesn't want ?

[jamesmcdonnell]

Agreed. When the dust settles, a few fundamentals will pave the way forward.

Froch, love him or hate him, is not going to give up the IBF belt. I just cannot see that happening in a million years. The Chavez talk is a bit of a bluff, Chavez has a fight in March and may well lose it. His stock is not high these days.

Groves has lobbied the IBF for a rematch, he's got it, and it has to happen in 90 days.

Sky TV want Froch vs Groves 2 and will stick it on PPV, making everyone richer than they previously were.

I cannot see anything but the obvious happening. Eddie himself says it needs to go on before the summer comes for scheduling reasons.

All parties but Froch want this to happen immediately, and the IBF is now forcing Carl's hand - he faces George next, or else gives up the title.

I think the only hurdle is an obscure one. How can Carl say yes to this fight without looking like he's being forced into a fight he doesn't want ?

Yes, I can see that outcome, with Froch choosing to bin the belt rather than appear to be boxed into a corner.

Still the prospect of several million pounds might ameliorate that somewhat - or may not - I don't think it's entirely about the money for Froch by any stretch.

[lefty]

There would have to be an awful lot of money in the pot for Carl to pick up the same purse vs Chavez as he would against Groves. Given Chavez's "need" to also earn several million from the fight, I really don't see it happening. It wouldn't be a PPV fight in America so they're at the mercy of the TV companies and I can see them paying well, but not THAT well. Last time Froch fought over there he got well beaten.

I suspect a bit of bluffing is going on.

Eddie and Carl have said it would be on PPV if it happened. Whether that's true or not I dont know.

[danconnollyeire]

Groves has been extremely clever here IMO. Money aside, he's given himself a lot more power having the ibf's backing. It's a klitschko type situation, their opponent always have more power when it's mandatory

[stujones]

Aside from the Money/options side of it - Froch made it clear in the build up to fight 1 who the home fighter was, even though Groves' previous promoter was Hearn.

Groves' feels aggrieved at what happened on an Eddie Hearn promoted show - perhaps part of the reason of him rejecting the offer was due to Groves not wanting the same treatment again. I'm not suggesting Groves' was harshly dealt with, I certainly don't think there was any corruption in the stoppage, but perhaps Groves doesn't feel the same way.

Could be a mistake, could be a masterstroke - all depends I think on what negotations Groves' has done since.... if Groves has signed for a big promotional deal (e.g. Golden Boy) - then a rematch might not be on an Eddie Hearn bill.

[Autobarn]

I wonder what the terms were at issue. hearn having options, or could it be down to rematch clauses which no one's mentioned?

[Finn]

Froch has said previously he will never vacate a belt through choice. I have seen no evidence in his career that he is unwilling to face any opponent, I think it comes down to him wanting to keep groves dangling a bit. I think froch believes he would have stopped groves and would in a rematch. The fact he's come from behind to win on other occassions will only fuel that belief.

It always makes me laugh when people start judging a fighter on something completely to the contrary of how they have behaved throughout their entire careers.

This whole frochs bottling it mentality is just daft. When has he ever bottled it?

[big lennox]

Groves has played an absolute blinder. He is a canny operator!!