Bogs, Bouttier and Tonna
Bogs, Bouttier and Tonna
I would please like to know how good were Tom Bogs, Jean-Claude Bouttier and Gratien Tonna and I know that they each stand at 5'9 1/2", but how long are their reach. Could you dig up their tale of the tape when they each fought Carlos Monzon for the world middleweight title? For example, Monzon stood 5'11 1/2" with 76 inches in reach. Also, in your eyes what were their styles? Thanks.
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Datsue
- Heavyweight
Re: Bogs, Bouttier and Tonna
Are you kovit?
How long is your tape measure in length, please?
When it's standing up?
How long is your tape measure in length, please?
When it's standing up?
Re: Bogs, Bouttier and Tonna
Yes, I am and I have lost my account about 10 years ago, but I am back. I am standing at 5'10 1/2" with a reach of 69 or 70 inches.
Re: Bogs, Bouttier and Tonna
Il Duce, could you please help me out if you can dig up the reach of Tom Bogs, Jean-Claude Bouttier and Gratien Tonna and how good they were?
Re: Bogs, Bouttier and Tonna
Rest assured Kovit, he will be making them up for you right now just as he did with old Bunky's birth date.scorpio83 wrote:Il Duce, could you please help me out if you can dig up the reach of Tom Bogs, Jean-Claude Bouttier and Gratien Tonna and how good they were?
Re: Bogs, Bouttier and Tonna
All three were limited. Bouttier and Bogs benefited from from their enormous fanbase and homecooking to get into the top ten. Tonna was a very limited fighter. He was a big middleweight, very strong, but he was a front runner.
Jean Claude Bouttier was sort of like a poor mans Carpentier. More style than substance, popular because of his good looks. When he initially stepped up his competition and faced journeyman Jaurez DeLima he lost twice. He tried to come back with a fight over the brawling Max Cohen but only managed a draw. The next time Bouttier stepped up the competition was against Stanley Kitten Hayward. Hayward dropped Bouttier and outboxed him in his typical flashy style but Bouttier was awarded a ridiculous gift decision. Two fights later he fought Delima again and won (I cant remember this fight and would have to go back and watch it). He then traveled to California and scraped by on a split decision over the limited Henry Walker and lost to the limited Lonnie Harris. He was sent back to France defeated but came back with wins over Olympian Jo Gonzales, a revenge victory over Harris, Tom Bethea (who will always be known as the club fighter who KOd Benvenuti). It was this run over shopworn Americans and domestic European fighters, winning him the French and EBU titles, that got him the first shot at Monzon. In my opinion his only qualification for this shot was the EBU title and nothing in his resume had shown that he would be able to win a world title. Bouttier lost every round before being stopped but picked right back up where he left off fighting European fighters and shot Americans. The only fighter of real class that he faced during this period was Emile Griffith who was winning handily when Bouttier began repeatedly acting like he was hit low (from legit bodyshots) Finally Bouttier went down and put on a pathetic display of acting which resulted in Griffith being disqualified. It was a joke. 9 mos later he was inexplicably back in the ring with Monzon and this time was more competetive (Despite being dropped numerous times) but this was likely more to Monzon taking him lightly than Bouttier having improved. Within a year he had lost his EBU title to Kevin Finnegin and shortly thereafter in an all France grudge match he was stopped on cuts against Max Cohen, losing his French title. He then retired and went into television commentary (which had more to do with his looks than his voice which sounded like he had been gurgling with battery acid due to his years as a smoker).
Gratien Tonna had been a highly touted amateur, winning the amateur middleweight championship of France and defeating the amateur light heavyweight champion in a special cross divisional bout. He came from the mean streets of Marseille and this was reflected in his style where he would grind opponents down with his physical style. He went 13-0 (13) in his first 13 fights but his competition had been designed to garner that kind of result. In his 14th bout he was matched with Max Cohen who some thought had no heart. It was a massive jump in class but Tonna's people expected that he would expose Cohen's lack of heart and get a big win in the process. The exact opposite happened when Cohen, who was also a brawling type of fighter, outgeneraled Tonna and handed him his first loss. Tonna continued to be matched soft until he faced the shopworn Fabio Bettini for the French MW title. For years Bettini had been matched with some of the biggest names in the world but had failed to beat any of them. His biggest wins were decisions over Jean Baptist Rolland and Max Cohen. Bettini stopped Tonna in 10. 2 years later Tonna defeated Bettini for the French MW title twice, once by decision and once by KO, which propelled him into a match with Valdez. Valdez brutally hammered Tonna round after, leaving his face grotesquely swollen and bloody before Tonna quit and tried to win on a foul. After outpointing Kevin Finnegan for the EBU title he faced Monzon who methodically picked him apart. Tonna kept turning and twisting whenever the two got close and finally half turned as Monzon threw a punch resulting in it landing on the back of Tonna's head. Tonna went down and though completely aware stayed there and claimed a foul. This was not allowed and he lost the fight. Tonna now had a reputation as a being yellow in Europe and before long he was matched with the flavor of the month in France, Jean Mateo. Mateo was a hard punching brawler who was figured to once again make Tonna quit. Instead Tonna used his greater size and strength to batter Mateo into submission in two rounds, leaving him a bloody mess. Tonna then scored a nice win over Minter by opening a nasty gash on the bleeders forehead prompting the stoppage. It would be his last hurrah. He lost a one sided title eliminator to Ronnie Harris and was TKOd by Minter. He retired in 1980 after a loss in the rematch to Finnegan but tried an unsuccessful comeback several years later. He was periodically in trouble with the law, including (I think) being involved in a shooting where he was wounded (my memory is hazy on this and I could be wrong).
Bogs is a little more difficult to judge because of the lack of film in Denmark during his prime. He was highly regarded at home (but so was Brian Nielson and I suspect Bogs shared some decisions in common with Nielson). Of the fights we can see he doesnt look like anything special. A straight up and down, stiff, european style fighter who relies on the one two. His fight with Don Fullmer was a bad decision. He should have lost that one. He was hammered by Griffith, and Monzon. His fans have always tried to blame his losses on his switch in trainers but thats never seemed like a legit excuse to me.
Jean Claude Bouttier was sort of like a poor mans Carpentier. More style than substance, popular because of his good looks. When he initially stepped up his competition and faced journeyman Jaurez DeLima he lost twice. He tried to come back with a fight over the brawling Max Cohen but only managed a draw. The next time Bouttier stepped up the competition was against Stanley Kitten Hayward. Hayward dropped Bouttier and outboxed him in his typical flashy style but Bouttier was awarded a ridiculous gift decision. Two fights later he fought Delima again and won (I cant remember this fight and would have to go back and watch it). He then traveled to California and scraped by on a split decision over the limited Henry Walker and lost to the limited Lonnie Harris. He was sent back to France defeated but came back with wins over Olympian Jo Gonzales, a revenge victory over Harris, Tom Bethea (who will always be known as the club fighter who KOd Benvenuti). It was this run over shopworn Americans and domestic European fighters, winning him the French and EBU titles, that got him the first shot at Monzon. In my opinion his only qualification for this shot was the EBU title and nothing in his resume had shown that he would be able to win a world title. Bouttier lost every round before being stopped but picked right back up where he left off fighting European fighters and shot Americans. The only fighter of real class that he faced during this period was Emile Griffith who was winning handily when Bouttier began repeatedly acting like he was hit low (from legit bodyshots) Finally Bouttier went down and put on a pathetic display of acting which resulted in Griffith being disqualified. It was a joke. 9 mos later he was inexplicably back in the ring with Monzon and this time was more competetive (Despite being dropped numerous times) but this was likely more to Monzon taking him lightly than Bouttier having improved. Within a year he had lost his EBU title to Kevin Finnegin and shortly thereafter in an all France grudge match he was stopped on cuts against Max Cohen, losing his French title. He then retired and went into television commentary (which had more to do with his looks than his voice which sounded like he had been gurgling with battery acid due to his years as a smoker).
Gratien Tonna had been a highly touted amateur, winning the amateur middleweight championship of France and defeating the amateur light heavyweight champion in a special cross divisional bout. He came from the mean streets of Marseille and this was reflected in his style where he would grind opponents down with his physical style. He went 13-0 (13) in his first 13 fights but his competition had been designed to garner that kind of result. In his 14th bout he was matched with Max Cohen who some thought had no heart. It was a massive jump in class but Tonna's people expected that he would expose Cohen's lack of heart and get a big win in the process. The exact opposite happened when Cohen, who was also a brawling type of fighter, outgeneraled Tonna and handed him his first loss. Tonna continued to be matched soft until he faced the shopworn Fabio Bettini for the French MW title. For years Bettini had been matched with some of the biggest names in the world but had failed to beat any of them. His biggest wins were decisions over Jean Baptist Rolland and Max Cohen. Bettini stopped Tonna in 10. 2 years later Tonna defeated Bettini for the French MW title twice, once by decision and once by KO, which propelled him into a match with Valdez. Valdez brutally hammered Tonna round after, leaving his face grotesquely swollen and bloody before Tonna quit and tried to win on a foul. After outpointing Kevin Finnegan for the EBU title he faced Monzon who methodically picked him apart. Tonna kept turning and twisting whenever the two got close and finally half turned as Monzon threw a punch resulting in it landing on the back of Tonna's head. Tonna went down and though completely aware stayed there and claimed a foul. This was not allowed and he lost the fight. Tonna now had a reputation as a being yellow in Europe and before long he was matched with the flavor of the month in France, Jean Mateo. Mateo was a hard punching brawler who was figured to once again make Tonna quit. Instead Tonna used his greater size and strength to batter Mateo into submission in two rounds, leaving him a bloody mess. Tonna then scored a nice win over Minter by opening a nasty gash on the bleeders forehead prompting the stoppage. It would be his last hurrah. He lost a one sided title eliminator to Ronnie Harris and was TKOd by Minter. He retired in 1980 after a loss in the rematch to Finnegan but tried an unsuccessful comeback several years later. He was periodically in trouble with the law, including (I think) being involved in a shooting where he was wounded (my memory is hazy on this and I could be wrong).
Bogs is a little more difficult to judge because of the lack of film in Denmark during his prime. He was highly regarded at home (but so was Brian Nielson and I suspect Bogs shared some decisions in common with Nielson). Of the fights we can see he doesnt look like anything special. A straight up and down, stiff, european style fighter who relies on the one two. His fight with Don Fullmer was a bad decision. He should have lost that one. He was hammered by Griffith, and Monzon. His fans have always tried to blame his losses on his switch in trainers but thats never seemed like a legit excuse to me.
Re: Bogs, Bouttier and Tonna
There is little doubt that Tom Bogs got a few gift decisions during his career, but I don´t see the comparition to Brian Nielsen. Brian got a split decision against Larry Holmes. I scored the fight for Holmes, but on the other hand American judge Steve Podborski scored it for Brian Nielsen. The rest of Brian Nielsen decision wins were perfectly okay, and I have his full career on dvd, so I can say for sure.
Re: Bogs, Bouttier and Tonna
Thanks klompton for the analysis for these fighters I appreciate it!
Re: Bogs, Bouttier and Tonna
Like Woller says, Brian Nielsen shouldn't have won against Holmes - but that was the only gift decision the Dane got during his career. None of his other wins on points were even close.
It's a bit different with Tom Bogs. Though a much better boxer than Nielsen, he was "helped" by the judges on several occasions. As Klompton noted, he didn't really deserve the draw against Fullmer - though it wasn't the biggest robbery I've ever seen. The return Bogs won fair and square.
Bogs' defence of his European light heavyweight title against Italian Piero Del Papa, on the other hand, was probably the most outrageous decision I've seen in a title fight in Denmark! Bogs, a natural middleweight, couldn't keep his much stronger opponent at bay, and was given a sound drubbing over 15 rounds - but for some inexplicable reason, referee (and sole arbiter) Harry Gibbs scored the Dane a clear winner (7-3-5 in rounds). That was very difficult to understand!
Another fight Bogs should have clearly lost was against Johnny Frankham, who was nothing special, but the crafty, clever type, Bogs just couldn't figure out. The Britt had no punch, but managed to clown his way through 10 rounds, making the Dane look like a complete fool. Also, in an early fight Bogs was lucky to escape with a win against German Manfred Hass. I remember Bogs being booed out of the ring in that one!
Incidentally, Bogs' reach was 75".
It's a bit different with Tom Bogs. Though a much better boxer than Nielsen, he was "helped" by the judges on several occasions. As Klompton noted, he didn't really deserve the draw against Fullmer - though it wasn't the biggest robbery I've ever seen. The return Bogs won fair and square.
Bogs' defence of his European light heavyweight title against Italian Piero Del Papa, on the other hand, was probably the most outrageous decision I've seen in a title fight in Denmark! Bogs, a natural middleweight, couldn't keep his much stronger opponent at bay, and was given a sound drubbing over 15 rounds - but for some inexplicable reason, referee (and sole arbiter) Harry Gibbs scored the Dane a clear winner (7-3-5 in rounds). That was very difficult to understand!
Another fight Bogs should have clearly lost was against Johnny Frankham, who was nothing special, but the crafty, clever type, Bogs just couldn't figure out. The Britt had no punch, but managed to clown his way through 10 rounds, making the Dane look like a complete fool. Also, in an early fight Bogs was lucky to escape with a win against German Manfred Hass. I remember Bogs being booed out of the ring in that one!
Incidentally, Bogs' reach was 75".
Re: Bogs, Bouttier and Tonna
Im not saying that Nielson didnt deserve some of his decisions, Im saying that some of his opponents were clearly paid to turn in a losing performance. Like Alan Vester's ridiculous KO over Emmanuel Augustus, some of Nielson's opponents showed up for a payday and thats it. You can see that the deck was stacked against fighters by what happened in the Dickie Ryan fight where Nielson became grotesquely ill to the point where he literally tried to roll out of the ring to get out of the fight and people were forcing his corpulant, half concious body back in, it was obvious that had Nielson managed to stay in the ring until the end of the fight he would have won regardless of his condition. There was a string of fighters who later claimed to have been paid to lay down for Nielson. The common denominator in this is Mogens Palle who has a history being involved record padding at best and fight fixing at worst.
Re: Bogs, Bouttier and Tonna
Some of Brian Nielsens american opponents (Tony Tubbs, Tim Witherspoon and Jeremy Williams) performed terribly. They just took the money amd went home trying to say that they were stopped on injury. I honestly don´t think that they were payed to loose. If Mogens Palle payed fighters to loose, why did he not pay of Nielsen 50th opponent so he could break Marcianos record? Some of the lesser fighters who claimed that they were payed to take a dive here in Denmark, were so poor that Nielsen knocked them out before they could take their supposed dive. Regarding the first Dicky Ryan fight you are right that Nielsen would have won the fight if it had gone the distance. He easily won the first seven rounds, and then blew up. All sorts of tricks were tried to keep hin in the fight, but luckily the fight was stopped before lasting damage was done. Manager Mogens Palle was a genius when it comes to padding of records.
I was surprised when I read what you write about the Tom Bogs v Piero del papa fight. I have not seen it myself, but the (Danish) newspapers wrote that Tom deserved the decision. Have you got the fight? I know it was filmed.
I was surprised when I read what you write about the Tom Bogs v Piero del papa fight. I have not seen it myself, but the (Danish) newspapers wrote that Tom deserved the decision. Have you got the fight? I know it was filmed.
Re: Bogs, Bouttier and Tonna
No, I don't have the fight - but I watched it from ringside with my dad, and we (along with the rest of the crowd) were completely stunned, when Harry Gibbs lifted Bogs' arm at the end of the fight!Woller wrote:I was surprised when I read what you write about the Tom Bogs v Piero del papa fight. I have not seen it myself, but the (Danish) newspapers wrote that Tom deserved the decision. Have you got the fight? I know it was filmed.
I have taken a look at my newspaper clippings from the fight, and here is what I've found:
"Ekstra Bladet" (ALS) scored it for Del Papa by a single point.
One of the big morning papers (either "Berlingske Tidende" or "Politiken", I'm not quite sure which) carried a front page photo from the fight with the title: Tom Bogs fik sejren foræret i Forum (Tom Bogs received a gift win in Forum).
"BT" (Børge Munk Jensen) scored the fight 7-3-5 in favour of the Italian and wrote:
Såvel Tom Bogs som professionel dansk boksning er i stor taknemmelighedsgæld til den engelske kampleder, der rakte den danske arm i vejret i samme sekund, kampen sluttede. Jeg føler mig overbevist om, at hvis man sagde: Hånden på hjertet til de 6800 tilskuere, så ville de 90 procent erkende, at de var forbløffede over afgørelsen.
Or in English:
Tom Bogs as well as Danish professional boxing owe a big thanks to the English referee, who raised the Danish arm, as soon as the fight ended. I am convinced, that if you asked the 6800 fans to be truthful, 90% of them would admit, that the decision left them flabbergasted.
For what it's worth (and using my own scoring system) I had Del Papa winning the fight 149-144½.
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Tuan_Jim
- Heavyweight
Re: Bogs, Bouttier and Tonna
Bonecrusher, Bounty Hunter, Tubbs, Phil Jackson, Witherspoon, and Butler all lost in extremely baffling circumstances.Woller wrote:There is little doubt that Tom Bogs got a few gift decisions during his career, but I don´t see the comparition to Brian Nielsen. Brian got a split decision against Larry Holmes. I scored the fight for Holmes, but on the other hand American judge Steve Podborski scored it for Brian Nielsen. The rest of Brian Nielsen decision wins were perfectly okay, and I have his full career on dvd, so I can say for sure.
And let's not forget the Thomas Williams affair...
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elmersalsa
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 15701
- Joined: 02 Feb 2003, 03:50
Re: Bogs, Bouttier and Tonna
The great Carlos Monzon is listed at 6'1" not 5'11" like some claim