Britain's greatest ever champion

[Taansend]

Sure it didn't say greatest Welsh champion, his that for sure.
Lennox is the best British champion, in terms of competition.

Jimmy Wilde head and shoulders above Calzaghe and anyone else from the British Isles too.

And yes, I do realise he was very very short.

OK, I defer to superior knowledge. That was some record. My vote is for the Mighty Atom now.
Although most of his wins are over fighters with a losing record, but a different day and things weren't the same I guess.

Mr Tornado,

He had 100's of more fights than his official record. As a teen he would take part in fights where two holes were dug & a man (or boy) stood in each one so they were the same height & neither fighter could run. You just stood there winging punches. He would fight, and kayo, grown men in this way.

[expe]

Jimmy Wilde head and shoulders above Calzaghe and anyone else from the British Isles too.

And yes, I do realise he was very very short.

OK, I defer to superior knowledge. That was some record. My vote is for the Mighty Atom now.
Although most of his wins are over fighters with a losing record, but a different day and things weren't the same I guess.

Mr Tornado,

He had 100's of more fights than his official record. As a teen he would take part in fights where two holes were dug & a man (or boy) stood in each one so they were the same height & neither fighter could run. You just stood there winging punches. He would fight, and kayo, grown men in this way.

That isn't a boxing match, boxing matches take place in a ring with ropes and gloves, with weigh ins, not in a hole in the ground.

[mickey1975]

I think an Calzaghe was a lot of smoke and mirrors. Incredible record and some great performances but I just can't take to him being called one of the greats. Prime jones gets him out of there in a couple of rounds if he wanted to. I think prime Benn and Eubank would beat him too. Benn in particular would have being too much.

He was incredibly lucky that the division emptied out whilst he fought comparative puddings and then he beat an unprepared (mentally) lacy, Kessler who was ok but no great, the remnants of jones and the lazy Hopkins.

If your a glass is half full kind of guy Calzaghes one of the greatest human competitors to ever walk the face of the earth, half empty and he's just a cherry picker who barely mixed in top class. I'm somewhere in the middle. Even all these years later.

I would have put my life on it that peak Joe stops peak Benn. And Jones hardly stopped anyone in a couple of rounds, let alone the best 12st around other than him.

Disagree. Joe would never stop Benn. Benn had too much heart and Joe didn't / couldn't punch with the required force to stop Benn. Joe was busy but Benn was relentless and fearless. Benn takes a tigh decision, in which he drops Joe, for me.

As for Jones, at his peak, he if he couldn't stop 'em, he'd just batter them. Joe would be no exception, though I would favour Jones pulling off stoppage, of some kind. It could be early, you couldn't rule it out completely.

Joe's legacy and its credence has taken over this thread, somewhat. Benn and Eubank @ SMW, would be more than a match for 'our Joe. Joe was a great fighter, but longevitiy, the '0', and deceptive wins overr Hoppkins and Jones seem to catapult his standing, when in truth, Prince Naz had far more ability, more titles, fought some of the best around his weight and unofficially unified the belts. Yeah, he lost to another ATG when his interests waned but he, for me, is above Joe. Just my personal opinion.

I don't know how to word it without criticising Nigel, but... He lost heart against Watson, Collins(twice) and arguably against Eubank the first time.

[Taansend]

Mr Tornado,

He had 100's of more fights than his official record. As a teen he would take part in fights where two holes were dug & a man (or boy) stood in each one so they were the same height & neither fighter could run. You just stood there winging punches. He would fight, and kayo, grown men in this way.[/quote]
That isn't a boxing match, boxing matches take place in a ring with ropes and gloves, with weigh ins, not in a hole in the ground.[/quote]

I didn't say it was a boxing match.

[NazNaci1]

I don't know how to word it without criticising Nigel, but... He lost heart against Watson, Collins(twice) and arguably against Eubank the first time.

Then again you could argue at his peak vs McClellan kind of proves the guys bottle....as does his rematching a much bigger, heavier, stronger Eubanks. His wars with Barkley and DeWitt prove he had plenty of bottle and heart. The version that would take on Joe would not be like the one who faced Collins or Watson.

[expe]

I think an Calzaghe was a lot of smoke and mirrors. Incredible record and some great performances but I just can't take to him being called one of the greats. Prime jones gets him out of there in a couple of rounds if he wanted to. I think prime Benn and Eubank would beat him too. Benn in particular would have being too much.

He was incredibly lucky that the division emptied out whilst he fought comparative puddings and then he beat an unprepared (mentally) lacy, Kessler who was ok but no great, the remnants of jones and the lazy Hopkins.

If your a glass is half full kind of guy Calzaghes one of the greatest human competitors to ever walk the face of the earth, half empty and he's just a cherry picker who barely mixed in top class. I'm somewhere in the middle. Even all these years later.

I would have put my life on it that peak Joe stops peak Benn. And Jones hardly stopped anyone in a couple of rounds, let alone the best 12st around other than him.

Disagree. Joe would never stop Benn. Benn had too much heart and Joe didn't / couldn't punch with the required force to stop Benn. Joe was busy but Benn was relentless and fearless. Benn takes a tigh decision, in which he drops Joe, for me.

As for Jones, at his peak, he if he couldn't stop 'em, he'd just batter them. Joe would be no exception, though I would favour Jones pulling off stoppage, of some kind. It could be early, you couldn't rule it out completely.

Joe's legacy and its credence has taken over this thread, somewhat. Benn and Eubank @ SMW, would be more than a match for 'our Joe. Joe was a great fighter, but longevitiy, the '0', and deceptive wins overr Hoppkins and Jones seem to catapult his standing, when in truth, Prince Naz had far more ability, more titles, fought some of the best around his weight and unofficially unified the belts. Yeah, he lost to another ATG when his interests waned but he, for me, is above Joe. Just my personal opinion.

Benn was stopped 4 times in his career and quit on his stool twice and would have punched himself out at Calzaghe's pace. Jones was beating people up, but how many great fighters did he fight? Hopkins, Toney, McCallum who started at light middleweight and other decent fighters, but a lot of them weren't world class and they certainly weren't at Joe's level. Eubank spent too long prancing round the ring, he wouldn't have been stopped, he was too tough, but he would have been outworked to a comfortable decision, a little closer than when they actually met. I don't believe Naz had more ability, he was more athletic and definitely flashier, but there were glaring holes in his game that he made up for with outstanding reflexes and natural power. He certainly didn't have more belts either, he won the WBO, IBF and WBC, but he never fought for the WBA, Calzaghe did win all 4 and if it wasn't for politics would have been only the second fighter ever to hold all 4 simultaneously after Hopkins. Naz fought some of the best around his weight, but not all, same as Calzaghe, where the only glaring miss on his record is Sven Ottke and while he should have gone to Germany and knocked that fraud out, I don't blame him for not doing so with the officiating being so bad in Ottke's fights.

[mickey1975]

I don't know how to word it without criticising Nigel, but... He lost heart against Watson, Collins(twice) and arguably against Eubank the first time.

Then again you could argue at his peak vs McClellan kind of proves the guys bottle....as does his rematching a much bigger, heavier, stronger Eubanks. His wars with Barkley and DeWitt prove he had plenty of bottle and heart. The version that would take on Joe would not be like the one who faced Collins or Watson.

I just think Joe would have been all wrong for him at any stage. And yes, I agree Nigel had heart most of the time.

[expe]

Mr Tornado,

He had 100's of more fights than his official record. As a teen he would take part in fights where two holes were dug & a man (or boy) stood in each one so they were the same height & neither fighter could run. You just stood there winging punches. He would fight, and kayo, grown men in this way.

That isn't a boxing match, boxing matches take place in a ring with ropes and gloves, with weigh ins, not in a hole in the ground.[/quote]

I didn't say it was a boxing match.[/quote]
You implied they were when you said he had more fights than on his official record, but standing in a hole and slugging it out can't really be taken into account when determining Britain's greatest ever champion.

[expe]

I don't know how to word it without criticising Nigel, but... He lost heart against Watson, Collins(twice) and arguably against Eubank the first time.

Then again you could argue at his peak vs McClellan kind of proves the guys bottle....as does his rematching a much bigger, heavier, stronger Eubanks. His wars with Barkley and DeWitt prove he had plenty of bottle and heart. The version that would take on Joe would not be like the one who faced Collins or Watson.

I just think Joe would have been all wrong for him at any stage. And yes, I agree Nigel had heart most of the time.

He had heart at his best, but he was dragged into wars too often, great fighters can go to the trenches, but they don't need to because they're too good.

[NazNaci1]

Benn was stopped 4 times in his career and quit on his stool twice and would have punched himself out at Calzaghe's pace. Jones was beating people up, but how many great fighters did he fight? Hopkins, Toney, McCallum who started at light middleweight and other decent fighters, but a lot of them weren't world class and they certainly weren't at Joe's level. Eubank spent too long prancing round the ring, he wouldn't have been stopped, he was too tough, but he would have been outworked to a comfortable decision, a little closer than when they actually met. I don't believe Naz had more ability, he was more athletic and definitely flashier, but there were glaring holes in his game that he made up for with outstanding reflexes and natural power. He certainly didn't have more belts either, he won the WBO, IBF and WBC, but he never fought for the WBA, Calzaghe did win all 4 and if it wasn't for politics would have been only the second fighter ever to hold all 4 simultaneously after Hopkins. Naz fought some of the best around his weight, but not all, same as Calzaghe, where the only glaring miss on his record is Sven Ottke and while he should have gone to Germany and knocked that fraud out, I don't blame him for not doing so with the officiating being so bad in Ottke's fights.

I just wanted to answer each of your points as honestly as I could. Nigel punching himself out fighting at Calzaghe's pace? Why is that then? The fights and intensity of fights that Nigel was involved decimate anything Joe was in, so lets just focus on that, not the old Dark destroyer who fought Watson. Nigel was as fit as they came, in his prime. You had to hurt him and even then, it didn't stop him. Joe would be getting hit with bombs at times and it would be interesting to see how much of that rapid, slappy, fast punching he would do after getting countered a few times with some dynamite rights and lefts. That would be the key in that fight, in my opinion.

Jones? Seriously? Those 3 names you mentioned just says it all. Just how many great fighters did Joe fight? Was Toney not as good as Joe? Hopkins? McCallum? Was Joe anywhere near as good as any of these is what you should be asking. If Jones list of opponents doesn't impress then, by the same yardstick Joe's list does nothing for you. Talent wise, those 3 you mentioned are no worse than Joe, right? And which of Joe's opponents even comes close to Jones? Toney? McCallum? Hell even as good as González, Woods, Reggie Johnson, Tarver, Hill, Malinga or Griffin?

Eubank? An old, slower, worn Eubanks rocked Joe to his boots, literally in the last 10-15 seconds and though Joe might win again, it is no means a certainty, not by any stretch.

As for Naz, you may believe Joe had more ability, but I don't. Not at all. I have watched them both and all of their fights (like you probably) so I just don't see where Joe's talent wins out here. Though that's just a personal opinion, like yours. Speed, power, reflexes, just all round talent. Naz was just better. As for all the belts, well ok, maybe he never held all the belts but he beat Vasquez who was stripped just before his fight with Naz as you know, so he beat every belt holder in the division and unofficially was undisputed champion. Tougher opponents, some genuine world class opponents in there. As for Joe.....

Ottke? Well, he retired undefeated, fought some top contenders and still gets dissed. Yeah, yeah I know he got some homers ie Reid. Then again Reid gave Joe a super tough fight (which I though he might have nicked). Didn't get the decision there, nor the rematch, either. Joe did not do 'rematches' unless you were Mario Veit. Joe also said he only interested in winning 'proper' titles like the WBC and not the 'cheap' low level WBO. Yeah well we saw how that turned out and please don't suggest winning the other titles in the last portion of his career are some kind of vindication. It is not.

Finally, there is this minor point about traveling, which tends to get dismissed. Naz did it. Ricky did it. Lennox did it. Lloyd did it. Chris did it. Nigel did it. Even big Frank did it. Yet Joe only did it when he thought it was nice and safe.

Sorry fella, there is a counter argument for every point you have made and obviously there are arguments against every point I have made. That should tell you something. Joe was a great fighter, we have established that. It's his level of greatness that is the question and for me, he comes behind the likes of Lennox, Ricky, and Naz, in the modern era and then you got likes of Kid Berg, Jimmy Wilde, Ken Buchanan (a few that have been mentioned) and others whose achievements simply mean more and warrant more respect than retaining '0' due to fighting lower risk fights with home town advantage and clocking up 20+ defences. 13-14 of those against complete no hopers no names, 5-6 against heavy underdogs and the odd couple, where he was expected to be tested. Not saying much, is it?

Nope, not really good enough in my eyes, but its all about opinions.

[stevedoc]

In Joe's own words about fighting Roy Jones Jr (many years before he did)

"I could probably give Jones a tough fight, probably the best fight he's ever had," said Calzaghe. "But I know my capabilities and unless I got paid the crown jewels I wouldn't want to risk it."

Joe was a boxing great but nobody can deny he didn't always go after the best opponents. If Joe had been active around the time of the super six, I could have seen him offering excuses to not enter it.

Despite all that, he had more natural talent and could have beaten anyone at super middle today with the possible exception of Ward.

joe was with mr fwarren who never risks his fighters once they have a belt look at hatton he fought worse than joe did till he fought floyd .

[banjo]

I don't know how to word it without criticising Nigel, but... He lost heart against Watson, Collins(twice) and arguably against Eubank the first time.

I'd probably agree on Watson, Eubank I not a chance, he was probably on his way to getting knocked out but he wasn't quitting that night, the Collins fights his heart was out of boxing.

[banjo]

In Joe's own words about fighting Roy Jones Jr (many years before he did)

"I could probably give Jones a tough fight, probably the best fight he's ever had," said Calzaghe. "But I know my capabilities and unless I got paid the crown jewels I wouldn't want to risk it."

Joe was a boxing great but nobody can deny he didn't always go after the best opponents. If Joe had been active around the time of the super six, I could have seen him offering excuses to not enter it.

Despite all that, he had more natural talent and could have beaten anyone at super middle today with the possible exception of Ward.

joe was with mr fwarren who never risks his fighters once they have a belt look at hatton he fought worse than joe did till he fought floyd .

WBU you mean? Ricky left Warren after he beat Tszyu, then went on to unify in his next fight, moved up to welterweight after that, it took Joe 10 years to do that.

[stevedoc]

In Joe's own words about fighting Roy Jones Jr (many years before he did)

"I could probably give Jones a tough fight, probably the best fight he's ever had," said Calzaghe. "But I know my capabilities and unless I got paid the crown jewels I wouldn't want to risk it."

Joe was a boxing great but nobody can deny he didn't always go after the best opponents. If Joe had been active around the time of the super six, I could have seen him offering excuses to not enter it.

Despite all that, he had more natural talent and could have beaten anyone at super middle today with the possible exception of Ward.

joe was with mr fwarren who never risks his fighters once they have a belt look at hatton he fought worse than joe did till he fought floyd .

WBU you mean? Ricky left Warren after he beat Tszyu, then went on to unify in his next fight, moved up to welterweight after that, it took Joe 10 years to do that

i admit i thought he left warren after the callazo fight my memory was wrong BUT hatton fought average fighters till floyd beat him ,collazo was hardly a great welter weight was he

[revporl]

Its hard to compare like with like across the ages, but Jimmy Wilde seems to get the nod. The best two that I have actually seen are Eubank prior to the Watson fight and Naz.

[banjo]

Of course not but Hatton was busy picking the right fights, Maussa(held a WBA belt), Collazo,(held a WBA belt), Urango(held Ricky's old IBF belt) and Castillo(the name speaks for itself) to raise his profile in order to get a big HBO fight with Mayweather or Cotto. Joe spent 10 years fighting guys, some of whom were decent(Reid, Woodhall, Mitchell) and he had his fair share of fights fall through(the Ottke fight never came off because neither wanted to fight in the others backyard, Hopkins pulled out because he decided he wanted more money) but 10 years between winning a vacant title and taking on the first real high profile challenge.

[Tuan_Jim]

I can't believe people are so impressed by Joe Calzaghe's poor opponents and alphabet spaghetti. The high regard Joe and Floyd are held in for what have been cynical safety-first careers only underlines my impression that boxing fans don't know how to think and need others (usually media outlets) to think for them.

I fancy Michael Watson to overpower Joe Calzaghe. And Watson is officially 0-3 in your precious 'world title' fights. And yet he beat Chris Eubank who is officially 20-3 in 'world title fights', and he would in my opinion do the same to Calzaghe, who is 20-0 in these spurious 'world title fights'.

And Watson certainly isn't anywhere near Britain's greatest ever fighter.

[doctorboxing]

The high regard Joe and Floyd are held in for what have been cynical safety-first careers only underlines my impression that boxing fans don't know how to think and need others (usually media outlets) to think for them.

Whilst Mayweather may have not always picked the fights that some fans wanted, it is not really fair to compare his list of opponents to Joe's.

For a fighter who started out at super feather, he went on and beat an undefeated Corrales, Castillo, Gatti, Judah, De La Hoya, Hatton, Marquez, Mosley, Cotto, Guerrero and then Alvarez at 152 lbs.

Say what you want about fights he hasn't taken but to say that boxing fans that hold Mayweather in high regard don't know how to think for themselves is crazy.

[Tuan_Jim]

Floyd's performances are worthy of praise, the list of dangerous opponents he swerved is long, and the people who think he's the best ever don't know, for instance, who an Emile Griffith is, or a Charley Burley.

Likewise the people hung up on Joe continuously point to stats and ask 'how many champions did your guy beat', as if they cannot comprehend that titles weren't always cheap trinkets that could be won by journeymen calibre fighters like many of the 'champions' Joe beat.

However you are right, Floyd and Joe have had very different careers. Their ethos however is very similar.

[Ambling Alp II]

How about Jack "Kid" Berg?
He beat Tony Canzoneri, Kid Chocolate, and Billy Petrolle. He has got to be up there.

[orbtastic]

Certainly beats Joe Lynch and Young Zulu Kid.

[n1ebf]

was reading about Jimmy Wilde last night. Widely regarded as the best Flyweight of all time. Although the book that's from was 20-25yrs old and from a car boot. But still...

[stevedoc]

was reading about Jimmy Wilde last night. Widely regarded as the best Flyweight of all time. Although the book that's from was 20-25yrs old and from a car boot. But still...

there is no doubt that wilde was the greatest ever british champion it's just weather you believe that a fighter from 100 years ago could cut it today ,the same arguement as harry greb has at middle weight

[Ambling Alp II]

I would hope that most people would think that Harry Greb could cut it today.
Wilde is harder to rate because we don't know nearly as much about his competition. However, he was just a flyweight and beat Joe Lynch who was a great bantamweight.

[orbtastic]

lol. Greb is widely regarded as one of the, if not the greatest middleweight in history, not to mention one of the greatest fighters ever, in the history of the sport.

Their careers are not in any way comparable.

Greb would be a mortal lock for one the best fighters around in the sport today, were he boxing now. Wilde wouldn't.

You only have to watch footage of Wilde to just see how laughable those sort of claims are. He also really beat nobody or any note (the two wins over Lynch were exhibitions), whereas Greb has a cornucopia of names on his ledger to choose from, and all whilst blind in one eye.

If you take what Nat Fleischer said as gospel, then you must rate Louis, Dempsey, Marciano and Jeffries over Ali and Ketchel over Robinson and McGovern and Attel over Pep. The man had ludicrous bias and it just gets blindly regurgitated.