Fight Films Lost To History

[evrenb]

I saw a list about ten years ago and it had many fights on....lyle vs bonavena, lyle vs ellis both complete and liston vs johnny gray...among a few others...the seller was a serial bullshitter but a few ofthe fights did come out so they could be genuine...

[klompton]

I can see Lyle-Bonavena and Ellis being filmed but not Liston-Gray. That would have been a major long shot.

[evrenb]

There were others on that list too...the list was titled 'never to be released' I will have to try and dig it out...interesting to see which fights on the list have surfaced since I got the list...if it was a significant amount it would perhaps add some authentication and weight to the possibility of the others existing...why no to the liston bout...?

[klompton]

In my experience there is usually a logic behind what fights were filmed. Typically if it was professionally filmed, or broadcast, it was an important fight either locally, nationally, or international. You dont go to the expense of filming/broadcasting something if you dont expect people to watch it. Liston-Gray was a very minor card I would be surprised to find out that it was broadcast and even more surprised to find out that it was professionally filmed for public display. In that era that leaves the possibility that one of the fighters filmed had it filmed by a family member from ringside. This is a possibility but I would consider it remote. Typically, and again this is just in my personal experience, fighters usually filmed their fights that had some significance, and usually after they started to get a big reputation. It just doesnt seem like the type of fight that you would see surface. Its possible of course but it would be a longshot.

[evrenb]

Logical I guess...i will publish the list if I can find it...would make interesting reading...as you said it is possible...

[Brutu]

According to Nick Tosches book DEVIL AND SONNY LISTON.
Liston's fights with John Summerlin in Summer of 1954 were locally televised
on WWJ-TV Detroit Michigan.
As far as his first recorded nationally televised fight,that was on ABC-TV
with Julio Mederos May.14.1958.
But its possible he had fought on national tv earlier
in a preliminary fight.
(Liston vs Don Smith(KO1-23 seconds) was the preliminary to the
Nationaly televised
Ernie Durando vrs Randy Smith fight on the
Pabst Blue Ribbon Wednesday Night Fight,September.2.1953.

[evrenb]

I found the list it is from 1994..all the fights are listed as tape a, tape b etc..all with date of fight and result..
Jimmy ellis vs hurricane carter
Jimmy ellis vs george benton
Virgil akins vs luis rodriguez
Eddie machen vs joey maxim
Joey giardello vs tiger jones
Rock graziano vs eddie oneill
Eddie cotton vd sonny ray
Willie pastrano vs alonzo johnson 1&2
Willie pastrano vs john holman
Archie moore vs willie besmanoff
Joey maxim vs charlie roth
Sonny liston vs johnny gray
Jimmy ellis vs rory calhoun
Jimmy ellis vs rudolph bent
Jimmy ellis vs charlie glover
Jimmy ellis vs sammy poe
Jimmy ellis vd joe spencer
Jimmy ellis vs eddie dembry
Jimmy ellis vs george chuvalo live call cc inc post and pre
Jimmy ellis vs boone kirkman
Jimmy ellis vs larry middleton
Jimmy ellis vs ron lyle
Willie frazier vs rudell stitch
Premus williams vs rudell stitch
Art glass vs rudell stitch
Frankie betts vs rudell.stitch
Art glass vs rudell stitch
Kid chocolate vs rudell stitch
Billie gillespie vs rudell stitch
Elmer shippe vs rudell stitch
Charlie cotton vs rudell stitch
Duke harris vs rudell stitch
Johnny neal vs rudell stitch
Rudy sawyer vs rudell stitch
Jimmy ellis vs oscar bonavena
Jimmy ellis vs jerry quarry
Jimmy ellis vs floyd patterson

[klompton]

Jimmy ellis vs hurricane carter
Joey giardello vs tiger jones
Eddie cotton vd sonny ray
Jimmy ellis vs george chuvalo live call cc inc post and pre
Jimmy ellis vs boone kirkman
Jimmy ellis vs oscar bonavena
Jimmy ellis vs jerry quarry
Jimmy ellis vs floyd patterson

All those exist and most are fairly common. I wouldnt doubt a lot of the others exist but Ive never really gone after guys like Pastrano or Stitch. The Moore Besmanoff bout rings a bell for some reason but I cant remember why that sounds familiar to me.

[evrenb]

Not so common as in early 90's...you reckon the list genuine?

[klompton]

I couldnt say with any certainty. You said he was a notorious b.s. artist? If so then I doubt the validity of many of these.

[CNorkusJr]

Alot of fights (at least in the fifties) were on TV but were never archived for later viewing. My father's 2nd fight vs. Kurt Kennedy was televised locally here in New york, but you cant find it anywhere. For my father's fight vs. Joey Rowan, Tony Fosco found a negative print in England around 2000 ?. We bought it as a partnership and Tony keeping the reel. Before my father fought the main bout on National TV with Chris Schenkel doing the announcing , on the reel was carried the pre-lim bout just before the Main bout; of Alex Miteff- John Henry 6 rounder, in its entirety and announced by Schenkel. When copies of the Norkus/ Rowan bout started making the rounds of collectors and sellers- just the last round of the Miteff fight was on many of the copies that collectors bought. I have the whole fight on tape somewhere, but alot of sellers are doing away of the undercards that were on film also.
My fathers fight vs. Archie Moore in San Fran was on National TV but an archive print was not made and is said to be non-existant now.

Another example of undercard fight lost is the undecard bout of my fathers fight with Roland LaStarza. The Rocky Castellani fight vs Moses Ward was shown on TV as pre-lim, but you can only find a silent version entire fight of my father vs LaStarza. (There is a highlite film of 3-4 minutes with sound though of Norkus/LaStarza).

[evrenb]

I found that joey rowan fight from a s.african guy living in england...tony and I bought a huge collection..boy I miss him...

[Brutu]

Im pretty sure that KMRA-TV in Denver had filmed all of
Ron Lyle's early fights that were held in that city
at least until 1973-1974.
Reportedly Lyle vs Gary Bates(June 1971) was nationally televised from Lake Tahoe.
Lyle vrs Mike Bosewell was the preliminary
to Joe Frazier vs Ron Stander but I dont know
if the Lyle fight was televised with it.

[CNorkusJr]

I found that joey rowan fight from a s.african guy living in england...tony and I bought a huge collection..boy I miss him...

Thank You so much ! Tony was one-of-a-kind guy and I too miss his friendship and boxing film knowledge and archive. He is the one who has (had) my father's entire reel film collection we sent to him for repairs. Thank You for your efforts in finding that Rowan/Norkus reel !!!

[evrenb]

It was a nice collection and Tony paid for it....some good durelle footage as well if i remember and the first time I saw lots of footage on Panama Al Brown....
Those were the days....

[CNorkusJr]

It was a nice collection and Tony paid for it....some good durelle footage as well if i remember and the first time I saw lots of footage on Panama Al Brown....
Those were the days....

[Brutu]

The two exhibitions that Jack Johnson did at Leavenworth Kansas May 1921 were filmed.
The footage was to be included in a documentary about Leavenworth
that was being filmed at the time .
But at the screening the warden ordered that the Jack Johnson footage be
removed before the final print was made.

[energie]

I saw a list about ten years ago and it had many fights on....lyle vs bonavena, lyle vs ellis both complete and liston vs johnny gray...among a few others...the seller was a serial bullshitter but a few ofthe fights did come out so they could be genuine...

michael johnson from liousville kentucky= serial liar

[evrenb]

Lol

[energie]

Lol

remember the serial liar= michael johnson from liousville ky??? i remeber his bs list also

[energie]

I found the list it is from 1994..all the fights are listed as tape a, tape b etc..all with date of fight and result..
Jimmy ellis vs hurricane carter
Jimmy ellis vs george benton
Virgil akins vs luis rodriguez
Eddie machen vs joey maxim
Joey giardello vs tiger jones
Rock graziano vs eddie oneill
Eddie cotton vd sonny ray
Willie pastrano vs alonzo johnson 1&2
Willie pastrano vs john holman
Archie moore vs willie besmanoff
Joey maxim vs charlie roth
Sonny liston vs johnny gray
Jimmy ellis vs rory calhoun
Jimmy ellis vs rudolph bent
Jimmy ellis vs charlie glover
Jimmy ellis vs sammy poe
Jimmy ellis vd joe spencer
Jimmy ellis vs eddie dembry
Jimmy ellis vs george chuvalo live call cc inc post and pre
Jimmy ellis vs boone kirkman
Jimmy ellis vs larry middleton
Jimmy ellis vs ron lyle
Willie frazier vs rudell stitch
Premus williams vs rudell stitch
Art glass vs rudell stitch
Frankie betts vs rudell.stitch
Art glass vs rudell stitch
Kid chocolate vs rudell stitch
Billie gillespie vs rudell stitch
Elmer shippe vs rudell stitch
Charlie cotton vs rudell stitch
Duke harris vs rudell stitch
Johnny neal vs rudell stitch
Rudy sawyer vs rudell stitch
Jimmy ellis vs oscar bonavena
Jimmy ellis vs jerry quarry
Jimmy ellis vs floyd patterson

michael johnson louisville ky........BIGGEST BS EVER...NEXT TO the doc claiming he had quarry/mathis..

[Giancarlo]

michael johnson louisville ky........BIGGEST BS EVER...NEXT TO the doc claiming he had quarry/mathis..

Is Antoine LaFleur (aka The Doc) still around?

He was mental to deal with.

[energie]

I saw a list about ten years ago and it had many fights on....lyle vs bonavena, lyle vs ellis both complete and liston vs johnny gray...among a few others...the seller was a serial bullshitter but a few ofthe fights did come out so they could be genuine...

michael johnson from louisville ky........he was pure full of shit and never had these

[evrenb]

I saw a list about ten years ago and it had many fights on....lyle vs bonavena, lyle vs ellis both complete and liston vs johnny gray...among a few others...the seller was a serial bullshitter but a few ofthe fights did come out so they could be genuine...

michael johnson from louisville ky........he was pure full of poo and never had these

I would bet on the first two being available...

[Cap]

Let's cut to the chase. While it's really nice that a few guys have these collections of rare fight films, what good does it do anyone if they're hoarded just so you can say, "I have this and you don't."? These films need to be put up on Youtube or something so all boxing fans can enjoy them.

As to private filming of fights, I always heard it said that the Jeffries-Sharkey fight HLs were filmed by a fan with a camera hidden in a cigar box. Not sure how a movie camera back then would have fit inside a cigar box, but if it was done way back then, something similar was likely done many times later, especially with good quality home movie cameras. So, somewhere in America, in a shoebox or steamer trunk tucked away in a closet, attic or barn sits rare old fight films just waiting for collectors to snap them up and hide them in their closets....