If Mike Tyson hadn't gone to jail 1991 - 1994

[mickey1975]

- he'd've encountered top class "super heavyweights" earlier on, and something likely would've gone wrong vs a lewis or bowe.

In defence of Tyson, he encountered one of these top class super heavyweights in Tony Tucker. And TNT had a much, much better chin than either Lewis or Bowe. Tyson I thought was sensational in using timing to outjab a 6'5'' beast who was himself very durable and very fast.

Very big targets, Lewis and Bowe, and not as fast as Mike Tyson. Bad recipe. 'Potentially'.

Why did he have a "much, much better chin" than Bowe? Not been funny, just can't remember Bowe looking fragile.

[lillywhite14]

- he'd've encountered top class "super heavyweights" earlier on, and something likely would've gone wrong vs a lewis or bowe.

In defence of Tyson, he encountered one of these top class super heavyweights in Tony Tucker. And TNT had a much, much better chin than either Lewis or Bowe. Tyson I thought was sensational in using timing to outjab a 6'5'' beast who was himself very durable and very fast.

Very big targets, Lewis and Bowe, and not as fast as Mike Tyson. Bad recipe. 'Potentially'.

Why did he have a "much, much better chin" than Bowe? Not been funny, just can't remember Bowe looking fragile.

Because if that was the case ( it wasn't, you are right, Bowe was sound in the chin department, so was Lewis ) then it means Tyson could do to them what he did to Tucker.

Lewis proved in 93 he was quite a bit better than Tucker, when he put him down twice en route to beating him pretty comfortably.

I don't think I see Tyson look particularly special from the Buster Douglas fight onwards. I have always thought all three of Bowe, Holyfield and Lewis would have beat him had he not gone away and took them on.

Lewis lost when his eye was off the ball. Does anybody think he would take his eye off the ball against Tyson at that stage? At any stage? Tyson was of a similar age, Lewis knew of and sparred him before either was pro and knew full well what he was all about. Tyson was 'the name' of Lewis' heavyweight generation. He was never going to go in to that fight anything less than 100% focused on the task in hand.

Such a shame we never got to see these series of fights.

I think had they all fought each other regularly back then, they could have eclipsed the 70's heavyweight era. They needed each other in order to make that jump up.
Lewis - Bowe could have been an epic trilogy. Lewis - Tyson, Tyson - Bowe, Tyson - Holyfield much earlier, probably going on to be another trilogy, same if Lewis - Holyfield had taken place earlier etc
They all would have shared a billion dollars through it all too!

[Tuan_Jim]

Lewis proved in 93 he was quite a bit better than Tucker, when he put him down twice en route to beating him pretty comfortably.

Lewis proved he was quite a bit better than a 35 year old Tucker who had come out of retirement and drug addiction, a 'brief' six years after Tyson disarmed him.

Jesus. Please retune your critical perception device.

[lillywhite14]

I have to admit I got the Ruddock and Tucker dates against both mixed up. Happens often with me

[Tuan_Jim]

Happens to us all mate.

[stujones]

It would have been a very interesting time. I think Tyson would have beaten Holyfield in 1991 - although I am torn on it. I do believe the argument that Holyfield had his number, but I am not sure Holyfield had the frame to withstand Tyson in 1991. Remember Holyfield is 4 years older than Tyson, so to judge it on spars in 1984 (and before) when Tyson was 17 and Holyfield 21 is harsh. Tyson grew and became bigger than Holyfield, Holyfield grew stronger into the weight as the years progressed. He was hit and hurt at quite regular intervals between 1990 and 1992 - and none of these had the power of Tyson.

Lewis would have got smashed by Tyson at this period. Big Lewis fan and I do think the Lewis of the Pepe Correra era with the brain of the Lewis of the Emmanuel Steward era is close to the perfect Heavyweight. Would Lewis have always been switched on vs Tyson, would Pepe "right hand" Correra had the tactical nouse to handle Tyson. He scraped by Bruno.

Lewis was athletically at his peak in that era, but very green in terms of experience. The warning signs for the McCall disaster were there several times before (and I think even Tucker wasn't as easy at it should be).

Bowe..... a different argument. The Bowe of Holyfield 1 would have beaten Tyson of 1991-1992 IMO. However, that was just a one off with Big Daddy. Dare I even suggest if it was some kind of freaky one night that he could never repeat. I was actually surprised that Bowe was such a heavy favourite in the rematch with Holyfield, considering in fight 1 Holyfield was the heavy favourite.

[lillywhite14]

And that's why the 90's should have surpassed the 70's as the greatest ever heavyweight era.

So many different permutations. I must admit, the more I think about it the more I fancy Tyson in the early 90's over Holy. Lewis? I believe we would have seen the most focused Lewis ever against a young Tyson, I'm sure of it. Look how focused he was for the washed up version.
He struggled when he didnt respect his opponent. See the two losses and Bruno too. Much is made of Manny but he was very much on board for the Rahman debacle.

Bowe - Lewis is the biggest robbery of all for the fans though. As I said before, a possible all time great trilogy there that wasn't had. Lennox suffers the most in all of this. How high would he be ranked all time if he had beat Tyson, Holy and Bowe during that period?

[banjo]

And that's why the 90's should have surpassed the 70's as the greatest ever heavyweight era.

So many different permutations. I must admit, the more I think about it the more I fancy Tyson in the early 90's over Holy. Lewis? I believe we would have seen the most focused Lewis ever against a young Tyson, I'm sure of it. Look how focused he was for the washed up version.
He struggled when he didnt respect his opponent. See the two losses and Bruno too. Much is made of Manny but he was very much on board for the Rahman debacle.

Bowe - Lewis is the biggest robbery of all for the fans though. As I said before, a possible all time great trilogy there that wasn't had. Lennox suffers the most in all of this. How high would he be ranked all time if he had beat Tyson, Holy and Bowe during that period?

I say it enhances him, Bowe didn't want him so he binned his belt and fought Jesse Ferguson instead

[lillywhite14]

They all bottled it with Lennox at some point. A win over all three names in the early 90's elevates Lewis to a seriously high all time slot though.

[banjo]

They all bottled it with Lennox at some point. A win over all three names in the early 90's elevates Lewis to a seriously high all time slot though.

Tyson binned the WBC belt in 96 too rather than face Lewis to take on man of steel Bruce Seldon.

[Lenny Cravats]

OK, its June 1991 and Tyson has just beat Razor Ruddock. Tyson goes out partying for a few weeks and NEVER meets Desiree Washington, then Don King announces the Holyfield fight for Nov 8.
Tyson trains at Johnny Toccos in Las Vegas with Richie Giachetti. What would have happened in the Holyfield bout ?
I think a 1991 Tyson beats Holyfield inside the distance.
Then what for Tyson:

JUNE 1992 TYSON v FOREMAN
APRIL 1993 TYSON v BOWE
NOV 1993 TYSON v LEWIS
MAY 1994 TYSON v MOORER

All Las Vegas super events. (Tyson wins each fight in my opinion.)

I think it was more raping her than meeting her that did it.

[stujones]

And that's why the 90's should have surpassed the 70's as the greatest ever heavyweight era.

So many different permutations. I must admit, the more I think about it the more I fancy Tyson in the early 90's over Holy. Lewis? I believe we would have seen the most focused Lewis ever against a young Tyson, I'm sure of it. Look how focused he was for the washed up version.
He struggled when he didnt respect his opponent. See the two losses and Bruno too. Much is made of Manny but he was very much on board for the Rahman debacle.

Bowe - Lewis is the biggest robbery of all for the fans though. As I said before, a possible all time great trilogy there that wasn't had. Lennox suffers the most in all of this. How high would he be ranked all time if he had beat Tyson, Holy and Bowe during that period?

Lewis vs Holyfield 1991-1992 might have been very interesting. Not sure who would have won that. He might have been focused for Tyson, but he didn't seem to think Holyfield stood a chance against him (really dismissive of Holyfield chances in the rematch with Bowe, and he didn't rate Bowe as much). Lewis I think had serious edges in speed in 1991, strength? not so sure about. Holyfield was a better fighter in 1991-1993 than the one who did give Lewis problems in the rematch in 1999.

The reason why I think Holyfield loses to Tyson in 1991 was because of Tyson's strength at the weight. Lewis though I don't think had his "man strength" until 1994/1995 (Tommy Morrison bout was just about Lewis' best for me) - when he did gain his man strength, he lost some of his speed and athletism of his youth, but not sure that would have been a factor vs Holyfield. Holyfield found it difficult against strong guys - of the three (Lewis, Bowe and Tyson) I would say the 1991 version of Lewis was most athletic, but probably was the weakest in terms of man strength. Holyfield and Lewis were probably the most athletic and technically gifted (at the time) of the four, but I think the big factor in the 1999 match wasn't so big in 1991 - plus Holyfield's engine was greater.

Not sounding too favourable to Lewis am I.... Don't worry think he smashes Bowe 10 times out of 10. Even the Bowe that beat Holyfield. Styles make fight and Lewis would have always been too fast for Bowe.

[Tomasino]

And that's why the 90's should have surpassed the 70's as the greatest ever heavyweight era.

So many different permutations. I must admit, the more I think about it the more I fancy Tyson in the early 90's over Holy. Lewis? I believe we would have seen the most focused Lewis ever against a young Tyson, I'm sure of it. Look how focused he was for the washed up version.
He struggled when he didnt respect his opponent. See the two losses and Bruno too. Much is made of Manny but he was very much on board for the Rahman debacle.

Bowe - Lewis is the biggest robbery of all for the fans though. As I said before, a possible all time great trilogy there that wasn't had. Lennox suffers the most in all of this. How high would he be ranked all time if he had beat Tyson, Holy and Bowe during that period?

Mercer and Bert Cooper hit very hard. The Ray Mercer of 95-96 would have given Tyson a very tough fight. He almost beat Lewis after Evander had a brawl with him.

[Tuan_Jim]

They all bottled it with Lennox at some point. A win over all three names in the early 90's elevates Lewis to a seriously high all time slot though.

Tyson binned the WBC belt in 96 too rather than face Lewis to take on man of steel Bruce Seldon.

It was a far more complicated, Don King-orchestrated arrangement than Tyson 'ducking' Lewis.

Lewis in 1996 scraped past Ray Mercer. He was not a feared man after Mercer was done with him, check the contemporaneous media.

[Tuan_Jim]

Mercer and Bert Cooper hit very hard. The Ray Mercer of 95-96 would have given Tyson a very tough fight. He almost beat Lewis after Evander had a brawl with him.

Very hard hitters indeed. McCall still rates Bert Cooper as the hardest puncher he's come across, and he sparred a thousand rounds with Tyson.

It's worth noting that Holyfield would not have been gung-ho versus Tyson, like he was when brawling with Smokin' Bert. Tyson was in love with his power in 1991, and you're not going to take out Evander Holyfield by just trying to KO him. Bowe brought a complete package to beat Holyfield, Tyson had a half empty toolbag by 1991.

[Grilling Machine]

I agree with pretty much everything Stu's said on this page. I think Lewis was the most athletic of them all, but he transitioned from his early-fight explosiveness to latterday - slowing-reactions-enforced - patience without much overlap. I don't think he was ever as complete as he maybe could've been. The overhand right of his youth was wild, but his reactions were great for such a big bloke back then. He was a lot more refined by '95, but he never liked fast-footed guys who could work past his jab at speed.

I think early Tyson beats every version of Lewis, and we know that old Lewis beats old Tyson. I think the most competitive fight between them would've been in '95, and could've gone either way.

Holyfield had everything he needed to beat Tyson in '91 but the frame. A couple of years later I'd have favoured Holyfield, supposing Tyson was still on the rails by then.

I actually feel that Lewis would've troubled Bowe. The big danger for Lewis is a lapse in concentration. But if he could follow Hide's template, he had more power, weight and reach than Hide, plus - if he saw the punches coming - a better chin. I remember watching a satellite interview between the two (Lewis was somewhere in the Caribbean, I think, while Bowe was in a studio), and I felt then that Lewis had the edge, both in sharpness of mind and speed of punch. Lewis was prone to carelessness, but with the concentration he showed against Morrison, I'd pick him to wear the slower man down. I just wouldn't bet money on it.

[mahatma]

Regardless of his prison sentence Tysons life was in freefall at this point, his bubble had already been burst by Douglas and he d surrounded himself with yes men who fully encouraged and participated with him to indulge in immoral and criminal behaviour whilst neglecting his boxing training.
As much as a fan of his as I am I don't think he would of beaten either Bowe or Lewis at that point, as he always struggled with big men e.g bonecrusher smith/tony tucker.He may well of beaten Holyfield due to the fact Holyfield maybe at that point wasn't big enough

[Tuan_Jim]

'Struggled with big men'? He beat Tucker and Bonecrusher comprehensively.

The reason they went 12 rds is because of their A+ jawbones.

Biggs and Ribalta both hit the floor. Mitch Green saw the last bell but again, he was another giant with an A+ chin. Tyson won all these fights with relative ease.

Lewis and Bowe didn't have that kind of punch resistance.

[lillywhite14]

Neither did Douglas though.

Both Lewis and Bowe were more than talented enough to perform as Douglas did that night in Tokyo.

[Controversial]

Tyson was always a accident waiting to happen. Typical case of too much fame, money, yes men, women, drink and drugs. From reading his book he hardly ever seemed in great condition after winning the title. It would have been great to see what he would achieved if he had the mentality of someone like Hopkins, always in shape, clean living etc....but he was a street kid villain who never got out that mindset

[DIRT SUGAR]

Don't think it mattered after Douglas. The mystique had been shattered and he had been shown to be human. Perhaps he may have had the beating of Holyfield prior to his jail term, but he was starting to look vulnerable from the minute Rooney went and King got a really tight grip on him. In fact I think he may have fallen by the wayside even quicker if he'd have not been incarcarated as he was out of control and was cutting corners and I think it would have caught up with him. He was a shadow of himself against Ruddock in both fights. Tyson's style was never suited to a long career it was a case of how much they could get out of him in a short period of time anyway.

[stevedoc]

They all bottled it with Lennox at some point. A win over all three names in the early 90's elevates Lewis to a seriously high all time slot though.

lewis's win over tyson means no more than trevor berbicks over Ali

[lillywhite14]

They all bottled it with Lennox at some point. A win over all three names in the early 90's elevates Lewis to a seriously high all time slot though.

lewis's win over tyson means no more than trevor berbicks over Ali

It should have happened years earlier. Tyson, like Holyfield and Bowe before him, chose a "different route" ( by different read much, much easier )

All three of them backed out of fights against Lewis at various points.

[stujones]

Bowe and Tyson can agree with, Lilly - Holyfield?? Not sure.

1992-1993 It was Mr Bowe he was mixing it with - pretty good fight I think we agree. Just a few weeks after Lewis entered the world scene, Holyfield lost his title.

1994 - He was mixing it with Moorer - not a shabby fighter, but in this period Lewis was no longer world champion. Moorer was every bit as credible as Lewis at this stage.

I think the perfect timing for Lewis vs Holyfield would have been 1998 - no Vaughan Bean or proposed Akinwande fights, just beaten Moorer for WBA and IBF belts.... Lewis just destroyed Golota. It was only a year out.

[Autobarn]

They all bottled it with Lennox at some point. A win over all three names in the early 90's elevates Lewis to a seriously high all time slot though.

lewis's win over tyson means no more than trevor berbicks over Ali

nevertheless it was a big payday, a big enough deal that showtime and HBO did a dual broadcast, at the same time, swapping broadcasting partners 'round. this doesn't happen for nothing & the Tyson myth was enough that ppl still wanted to fight him. lewis even wanted a rematch, and tried to sue for not getting one.