How Do You Rate Clay's Win Over Liston?

[keithmoonhangover]

I think Tyson said it best 'Ali made Liston look like he
Was from another era' ....

Brilliant quote.

[BoxBuzz]

Hey Il Duce.....you are seriously foolish. That fight, the body language says it all. And it does not tell a story of a Liston who was about to be humbled on his own accord. He came in with every fibre of his being saying....I'm going to win. Period. And it won't last long folks. Don't go out for a beer.

And then like a big oversize balloon he sputtered and eventually just ran flat out of his can of "whup ass".

And then that victory....that he was so sure of ...well Doucher.......it simply did not take place. (A bit like many of your stories.)

He did strive mightily. He just did not accomplish.

Sort of like how you strive to be credible. And fall short of the mark, in many cases, by most measures.

[scallum]

Big Deal

Sonny Boy was cashing in.............He we wanted out anyway.

He wanted to be left alone, to rub elbows with the old gang, and drive his big Cadillac
thru the streets of Denver.

'Merry Chistmas'

Didn't Sonny continue to fight years after he fought Ali?

[BoxBuzz]

Well that's not relevant. But it's a creative response from someone who knows full well that he's peddlin' a load of baloney.

[SamWise72]

OK, Lesson for today for the Cassius Clay Lovers

Question 1

Lets ask the World who is their most beloved athlete.

Let's say 25% respond with Cassius Clay.

The next highest rated athlete gets 15%.

Result. Cassius Clay is the most beloved athlete.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Question 2

Let's ask the World what athlete do they 'hate' and 'despise' the most.

Let's say 25% respond with Cassius Clay.

The next highest rated athlete gets 15%.

Result, Cassius Clay is most 'hated' and 'despised' athlete in the World.

Is that the best you've got?

Virtually every post Duce makes these days is full of holes. Why pick one where he's absolutely right to argue with? Not only is it possible to be both, he's probably right that Ali was both deeply loved by more sports fans than anyone else, and hated by more sports fans than anyone else. Jack Johnson is probably the only boxer to come close in how he polarised opinion.

[elmersalsa]

He fought stupid because he had no clue how to deal with Ali's footspeed. There was nothing he could have done against Ali without a gun or rocket launcher.

A great performance by a relative novice against an experienced and dangerous opponent.

I agree with that 100%. It was the first time that a heavyweight so big like the great Cassius Clay was at the time he fought the great Sonny Liston, TO BE SO FAST AND ACCURATE. It was something never seen before. Just like the Beatles. It was something the world has never seen before.

[elmersalsa]

I BELIEVE THAT IT WAS THE GREAT SONNY LISTON's TIME TO BE TAKEN. He already CLEANED UP the division by the late 50s and early 60s. We forgot that he was DUCKED for the world championship for a couple of years. Once he won the crown, I think his hunger for fighting was not there anymore and also was the combination of how great that kid Clay was that night.

Let's give the great Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali credit. He was VERY FAST. At the time of the stoppage in round 7, the fight was CLOSE still.

Did Liston quit because he knew he did not had it that night, or just that Clay was better? It is hard to tell because of the events that happened in the fight.

[BoxBuzz]

This was really a poor action fight.

Round 1 > No quality action, and very few quality punches were thrown.
* Sonny landed '1' good right hand punch to the body.
* Cassius landed a few accurate punches towards the end of the Round.

Round 2 was much better than Round 1 in activity.
* Sonny was the aggressor, and forced the action.
* Cassius really did little, other than landing a few pokes.

Round 3 was the best action, and only real 'fighting' to take place.
* Cassius looked very good during the first-half of the Round, but failed to seize the opportunity.
* Sonny came on like gang-busters during the latter part of the Round.

Round 4
* Cassius looked winded, and did nothing but jab and move backwards.
* Sonny plodded, and failed to throw any quality punches on a 'tired' fighter.

Between Rounds >
A complete phony sham of 'something in the eyes'. A typical Chris Dundee 'wresting gag'.

Round 5
* 'Blinky' Clay moves around the Ring backwards, while holding out his arms.
* Sonny 'I'll Pull My Punches' Liston throws phony punches into Clay like and Amateur Fighter.

* Most people laugh at the 'fake phony sham'.

Round 6
* Cassius "remarkably' clears his eyes, and pecks away with stiff left jabs into a 'slow moving oaf'.
* Sonny does nothing, but slowly walks forward, and does nothing other than letting a Pip Squeak hit him with jabs.

Between Rounds >
* Thankfully, this dull atrocity ends.'

I'll miss you when you're gone....should you trip over yourself a couple more times. And I'm afraid it's fairly likely.

But I have to say, when you are right uh..hmm...let me rephrase this, because your never really "right" now are you? But when you are bordering on historically ACCURATE....you are merely a master of the obvious, and as such rather boring mundane, and largely mimeographic.

But when you are wrong, your desperation and perverse commitment reveals a pretty entertaining weave of wishes, hopes, and obsession. It's clear that some see you as a threat to the integrity of the entire boxing universe. But it's only when you are at your "wrongest", and most inaccurate, that you are at least minimally entertaining. I tend to breeze past your cut and paste from good sources moments. And find your whole cloth babblecrap the more fascinating aspect of your contributions.

Sort of a Dr Who/Twilight Zone/Charlie Zellenoff brand of an alternate universe of boxing.

You are completely and absolutely harmless. And I'll fight any man in the house who says different.

[Space Moutain]

OK, Lesson for today for the Cassius Clay Lovers

Question 1

Lets ask the World who is their most beloved athlete.

Let's say 25% respond with Cassius Clay.

The next highest rated athlete gets 15%.

Result. Cassius Clay is the most beloved athlete.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Question 2

Let's ask the World what athlete do they 'hate' and 'despise' the most.

Let's say 25% respond with Cassius Clay.

The next highest rated athlete gets 15%.

Result, Cassius Clay is most 'hated' and 'despised' athlete in the World.

I respect you

[evrenb]

It wasn't a 'real fight'.

Cassius Clay's talent had little to do with the pre-determined outcome.

This was a 'financial decision' by both parties.

Though Sonny made a lot of money {debt's paid off}, he did get royally screwed.

But, he was 'Tons of Trouble' and 'Bad News', and what goes around comes around.

Mike DeJohn on Sonny Liston

"They cut Sonny up 'four-ways' ~ up, down, sideways and often"

You don't really believe this...why bother? What's the point? Is it the attention you crave that you do not receive elsewhere??

[BoxBuzz]

OK, Lesson for today for the Cassius Clay Lovers

Question 1

Lets ask the World who is their most beloved athlete.

Let's say 25% respond with Cassius Clay.

The next highest rated athlete gets 15%.

Result. Cassius Clay is the most beloved athlete.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Question 2

Let's ask the World what athlete do they 'hate' and 'despise' the most.

Let's say 25% respond with Cassius Clay.

The next highest rated athlete gets 15%.

Result, Cassius Clay is most 'hated' and 'despised' athlete in the World.

I respect you

Welccome Space Moutain.

This concept is indeed respectable, understandable, sensible.

And.... good info is always good info. And... always be critical in your thinking regardless of the source.

[Space Moutain]

OK, Lesson for today for the Cassius Clay Lovers

Question 1

Lets ask the World who is their most beloved athlete.

Let's say 25% respond with Cassius Clay.

The next highest rated athlete gets 15%.

Result. Cassius Clay is the most beloved athlete.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Question 2

Let's ask the World what athlete do they 'hate' and 'despise' the most.

Let's say 25% respond with Cassius Clay.

The next highest rated athlete gets 15%.

Result, Cassius Clay is most 'hated' and 'despised' athlete in the World.

I respect you

Welccome Space Moutain.

This concept is indeed respectable, understandable, sensible.

And.... good info is always good info. And... always be critical in your thinking regardless of the source.

Thank you.

[scallum]

Helped launch Ali into becoming the best heavyweight ever and probably the most famous human being planet Earth has seen. Have yet to see another heavy that could move like Ali did

[Space Moutain]

Helped launch Ali into becoming the best heavyweight ever and probably the most famous human being planet Earth has seen. Have yet to see another heavy that could move like Ali did

Most famous? Uh, no.

[fatcity69]

Helped launch Ali into becoming the best heavyweight ever and probably the most famous human being planet Earth has seen. Have yet to see another heavy that could move like Ali did

Yes, it's easy to look fast when you're in the Ring with slow old guys.

Isnt it time for your meds yet???

[scallum]

Helped launch Ali into becoming the best heavyweight ever and probably the most famous human being planet Earth has seen. Have yet to see another heavy that could move like Ali did

Yes, it's easy to look fast when you're in the Ring with slow old guys.

Lol

[scallum]

Helped launch Ali into becoming the best heavyweight ever and probably the most famous human being planet Earth has seen. Have yet to see another heavy that could move like Ali did

Most famous? Uh, no.

If not the most famous definitely one of the most famous

[scallum]

It was 'dull' and uneventful.

Complete lack of action, between a 'lumbering' old man with major Tax Problems from the IRS,
and a fleet-footed light-punching kid who had 'Financial Backers up the Coolie'.

That lumbering old man fought successfully for like 5 yesars after the first fight vs Clay

[The Great John L]

Helped launch Ali into becoming the best heavyweight ever and probably the most famous human being planet Earth has seen. Have yet to see another heavy that could move like Ali did

Most famous? Uh, no.

Well, I'm not sure about the most famous ever, but he was arguably the most recognizable human during the 70's.

[Space Moutain]

Helped launch Ali into becoming the best heavyweight ever and probably the most famous human being planet Earth has seen. Have yet to see another heavy that could move like Ali did

Most famous? Uh, no.

Well, I'm not sure about the most famous ever, but he was arguably the most recognizable human during the 70's.

I suppose. Long way from being the most famous ever. He was also a lowlife, which I don't think is debatable

[Flump]

It was a great win, he was much better than Liston was expecting, and Liston spat his dummy out when he knew he was beaten. Simple.

Now the second fight has a horrible stench about it, no doubt in my mind. What happened? Only 'A Man' buried in Las Vegas knows.

[BoxBuzz]

Monzon was a lowlife......that is not debateable.


Ali......not so easy to categorize......he did some lowlife things......probably like you and I have done. Mischief, and wrongminded hatred at different points in his life. Exploiting his fame....probably guilty of that. But not a murderer. Just a famous guy superlative at a certain craft with typical human foibles. And some of us who pretend our shyt don't stink love to vilify the "humanity" in others.

I wouldn't mind having him for a neighbor, even if I might prefer Joe Frazier living next door.

Monzon......well, I wouldn't have hesitated pulling the trigger on him if I caught him in the act.


But Lordy could Monzon fight and any clinical assessment of boxing should probably NOT take such things into account.


Now when simply rating or discussing a "sportsman". perhaps all such gossip, and drama is fair game.

[The Great John L]

He was also a lowlife, which I don't think is debatable

Please explain why he was a lowlife.

[BoxBuzz]

He was also a lowlife, which I don't think is debatable

Please explain why he was a lowlife.

Most often cited against Ali, was his politics, after that his chauvinism. And of course, like anyone who embraces spirituality, his personal acts that fell short of his personal dogma. And of course his ego. Pretty run of the mill human stuff.

[Space Moutain]

He was also a lowlife, which I don't think is debatable

Please explain why he was a lowlife.

Hateful, racist, cheated on his women, trashed his opponents like no other athlete before him, stabbed Frazier in the back while fueling public hatred against him. Not gonna bring up him being a draft dodger though. I'll get some more later when I have the time