Jimmy Young v. Mike Tyson

[The Great John L]

I meant pop in terms of speed, which I realise now is not how anyone else uses it :) Maybe snap is a better word?

Well I thought I was done, but I can't believe that you're saying Young wasn't fast? He had very quick hands and although not fleet footed like a young Ali, he had highly developed ring movement and generalship.

As far as snap on his punches, I think he had enough to get Foremans attention.

[SamWise72]

I'm not making myself clear at all. I mean that by the time of the Young fight ALI had lost a lot of the snap in his punches. I felt that the last time we saw Ali display anything other courage, chin, and wileyness was Manila. Young was defensively excellent, mobile, fast, and a solid enough puncher if not thunderous, but when we saw him give hell to one of the fastest heavies of all time, well, Ali wasn't really that any more. I think Tyson is a bad match for Young, because for me, Young was at his best against plodding sluggers like Foreman and Shavers, who he could easily outmaneuver and counter, and guys like a slowing Ali, who would rather have someone come to them. Tyson would have been directly under his chin for the first few rounds, and I would bet him to take the first 5 or so and slow Young down significantly. From there, it would depend whether he had slowed Young enough to keep winning rounds as he went into "one big punch at a time" mode, or whether Young had preserved enough energy to remain elusive and slippery, but I feel like the first is more likely.

[Ambling Alp II]

The Young who fought Ali would not have beaten Tyson. The Young who fought Foreman and Norton very well might have.

[drunkenpiper36]

I think that young at the height of his powers could have found a way to survive the distance against Tyson. But I think Mike's pressure would ultimately win the judges' vote in the end.

[BoxBuzz]

The Young who fought Ali would not have beaten Tyson. The Young who fought Foreman and Norton very well might have.

Yep, I'm thinking that as well. He was slick, and at his best, he could expose the flaws in just about anyone.

[dempseyfire]

I think the combination of a thundering start, and a reasonably high workrate of big shots over the distance is going to be more than Young can finesse. I think Tyson is a different prospect to Foreman or Shavers, who are his nearest comparisons; higher workrate than either, MUCH faster, and in his prime, more determined than the Foreman that Young beat. I don't think he'll blow him out, although there's few in history to compare to Tyson's early rounds assault, but whilst I think Jimmy might make him work hard, I don't think the result would be in doubt.

I don’t recall Tyson ever exhibiting a high work rate over the distance. I remember than when he was forced to go the distance his work rate tailed off mid rounds and he started throwing single shots and willingly fell into clinches.

Besides the work rate I agree with most of your points about Tyson, but no one was more determined than a prime Foreman, and the one that fought Young was arguably the best version of George. That version had the jab of old George, a better defense than earlier and was able to apply pressure in a controlled manner with shorter more accurate punches. Of course, as you noted, Tyson was much faster than Foreman, Shavers or Lyle. OTOH, Young almost made Ali look slow.

My only point is that I struggle to see how anyone could not envision this as a difficult fight for Tyson. Young was a nightmare for some of the best HWs of the 70s, which many consider the best era for HWs.

The dehydrated George in Puerto Rico who could barely hold his hands up by after the 8th round was the best version of George? Come on . .

Also, people forget George came VERY close to taking Young out in that fight, and some refs today even would've likely stopped the fight. The fight was also razor close due to Young doing next to nothing for most of the first 6 rounds.

I also think he gets a little too much credit for the Ali fight. If the times he ducks his head out of the ropes aren't counted as KDs, he deserved the points decision, but Ali CLEARLY was way out of shape and just going through the motions on an opponent he didn't take seriously. Never-mind a prime Ali, based on that performance I'd clearly favor Ali 70-74 over Young.

Young loved to frustrate big, slower guys and then turn it up as they faded. But Tyson was faster than Young and wouldn't give Jimmy the room or time to pick his spots like he liked. I see him getting caught with something big like he did vs Shavers and Foreman but unlike vs Foreman, Tyson won't let him recover.

[Ambling Alp II]

Agree with some of this, some I don't.
I thought he looked really good against Foreman. That Foreman was tired in the late rounds is not that surprising. I though for the most part, Young did a great job of not getting hit yet doing something offensively. He did get hurt against Foreman, but survived. Foreman was a very good finisher, if he could survive him, he might have survived Tyson if he got hurt. He might have beaten Tyson on that night.

Against Ali he did almost nothing offensively against a past it Ali. As you mentioned, he resorted to putting his head outside of the ring. He would have lost to Tyson on that night.

I thought one of his best fights was against Norton, which was surprisingly full of action and one of the most underrated fights of all time. I thought Young did just enough to deserve the decision and may have beaten Tyson on that night.

[The Great John L]

The dehydrated George in Puerto Rico who could barely hold his hands up by after the 8th round was the best version of George? Come on . .

George always had trouble fighting with any intensity after the 8th round, this was nothing new and was more prevalent due to the climate. Many fighters become dehydrated when fighting in intense heat, yet everyone uses this as some type of a reason for George being outboxed and outlasted by a better fighter. And yes, that was the best version of George that ever stepped in the ring. He had spent a considerable amoutn of time in the gym actually learning how to tactically use his jab to setup his power shots and had also learned how to throw shorter, more compact and accurate power shots. It was just his misfortune that he had to be fighting Young that day. It should be quite apparent to any impartial observer that this version of George was much more efficient and capable than the wild swinging, sometimes out of control and clumsy George of most of his earlier fights.

Also, people forget George came VERY close to taking Young out in that fight, and some refs today even would've likely stopped the fight. The fight was also razor close due to Young doing next to nothing for most of the first 6 rounds.

You've mentioned this before, but the fact that George came close to stoppoing Young is irrelevant. Some refs today would have stopped the Lyle Foreman fight as well in Lyles favor and George may have been nothing more than a footnote in history. George was actually brutally knocked off of his feet and bludgeoned. Young did what he had to do to survive, was not knocked down and a stoppage would have been questionable even by todays standards.

The Young-Foreman fight was only "razor close" on the cards because Foreman was the guy everyone was expecting to win. Young controlled the fight from the beginning and won the fight quite comfortably besides the trouble in the 8th round.

Young loved to frustrate big, slower guys and then turn it up as they faded. But Tyson was faster than Young and wouldn't give Jimmy the room or time to pick his spots like he liked. I see him getting caught with something big like he did vs Shavers and Foreman but unlike vs Foreman, Tyson won't let him recover.

Tyson wasn't a volume puncher and was not good at avoiding being tied up. Young would have made him miss, tied him and frustrated him. Of course, Tyson could have caught him and stopped him, but that is the less likely outcome.

[drunkenpiper36]

"The Great John L"
And yes, that was the best version of George that ever stepped in the ring.

Never in my life have I ever heard anyone make this claim.