The Best White Heavyweight of All Time

[HomicideHenry]

Dempseyfire picked Wlad over Cooney, so that's a 2-2.

Thanks for the correction; with Saad's vote it is now 3-2 Klitschko over Cooney, which makes Klitschko go ahead in the tournament and Cooney's meteoric rise in the tournament come to an end.

Sullivan goes ahead, as does Schaaf, Jeffries, Dempsey, Sharkey....

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The Twelfth Round of The Best White Heavyweight of All Time Tournament:

Sullivan vs. Schaaf, 15 rounds

Jeffries vs. Sharkey, 15 rounds

Dempsey vs. Klitschko, 15 rounds

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Gene Tunney will face the winner of Jeffries/Sharkey

Dempsey/Klitschko will meet the winner of Sullivan/Schaaf

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Voting begins now and will end in 24 hours, have at it gentlemen!

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Schaaf UD
Jeffries KO10
Dempsey KO2

[HomicideHenry]

Tournament Records:

Tommy Burns:

-David Price with a 5-1 vote (Round One of Tournament)
-Mariusz Wach with a 4-3 vote (Round Seven of Tournament)
-Bob Cleroux with a 3-2 vote (Round Nine of Tournament)
-Bob Fitzsimmons (loss) of 6-0 (Round Ten of Tournament)

Jake Kilrain:

-Alfio Righetti with a 6-0 vote (Round One of Tournament)
-Randall 'Tex' Cobb (draw) 3-3 vote (Round Six of Tournament)*

*Seems an error was made, as neither of these men moved on into the tournament

Chuck Wepner:

-Al Pazer (draw) 3-3 vote (Round One of Tournament)
-Randall 'Tex' Cobb (loss) 4-1 vote (Round Two of Tournament)

Joe Bugner:

-Tomasz Adamek 4-1 vote (Round Two of Tournament)
-Vitali Klitschko (loss) 3-2 vote (Round Seven of Tournament)

Billy Wells:

-Kevin McBride 6-0 vote (Round One of Tournament)
-Duane Bobick (loss) 5-1 (Round Seven of Tournament)

Duane Bobick:

-Tom McNeeley 5-0 vote (Round Two of Tournament)
-Alexander Povetkin 4-2 vote (Round Six of Tournament)
-Billy Wells 5-1 vote (Round Seven of Tournament)
-Gerry Cooney (loss) 6-0 vote (Round Ten of Tournament)

Joe Goddard:

-Randall 'Tex' Cobb (draw) 3-3 (Round One of Tournament)
-Al Pazer 3-2 vote (Round Two of Tournament)
-Corrie Sanders (loss) 4-2 (Round Seven of Tournament)

Luther McCarty:

-Johnny Risko 5-1 vote (Round One of Tournament)
-Carmine Vingo 5-1 vote (Round Seven of Tournament)
-Fred Fulton (loss) 3-1 (Round Nine of Tournament)

John L. Sullivan:

-Charley Norkus 5-1 vote (Round Four of Tournament)
-Primo Carnera 6-0 vote (Round Seven of Tournament)
-Henry Cooper 6-0 vote (Round Ten of Tournament)
-Fred Fulton 3-1 vote (Round Eleven of Tournament)


(Will tally up more records later; but I am seeing the need for more than one man running/assisting in such tournaments as these, considering one mistake was just too many for me to take @ Cobb/Kilrain)

[HomicideHenry]

Schaaf UD
Jeffries KO10
Dempsey KO2

Thanks for your vote Saad....

1 Schaaf, 1 Jeffries, 1 Dempsey....

[HomicideHenry]

Schaaf
Sharkey
Klitschko

Thanks for your vote Barry...

2 Schaaf, 1-1 EVEN Jeffries/Sharkey, 1-1 EVEN Dempsey/Klitschko

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Barry picked Clinchko.

[HomicideHenry]

Barry picked Clinchko.

Corrected; could of swore he originally said Dempsey

[scartissue]

I'm just messing with you, but you Cooney fans are an amazing bunch.

Saad, everyone sees something different in a fight. For instance, I thought stylistically, the Tunney-Jeffries matchup was a slam-dunk for Gene. Over 15 rounds i could envision a 14-1 scoreline. However, it looks as if Jeff will progress. I have no idea how anyone can come up with a Jeff win unless they're picking him on legend. Has anyone actually watched his prime fight against Gus Ruhlin? No one wants to say it - besmirching the legend and all - but he was woeful. His legend was built on taking gobs of punishment and outlasting the opponent. Over 15 rounds in the modern era, Corbett would have regained his title and the rematch with Fitz would have been stopped in favor of Bob on cuts. So what I'm saying in reference to your Wlad/Cooney analogy, I guess we all see things different.

You must be joking; what is woeful is the quality of the Jefferies-Ruhlin film. That could gauge an entire fighter's worth on what is mostly grainy fuzziness is crazy. One can see from the commentary of the time along with the MUCH higher quality footage of him in training to see Jim was an incredibly athletic big man who carried speed and skills along with his power/strength. That he was just an old time Chuvalo who soaked up punishment is just inaccurate. If that was all it took in that era to become champion Sandy Ferguson would've reigned for years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNJpppvKfSQ

Dempsey, I think I know the version you may have seen. Check out this restored version here. No blur, grainy of course just like that training footage, but that's part and parcel of the times. I didn't come to this conclusion about Jeff in a wild stab. I've been studying Jeff's merits for the last 40 years. This film is a warts and all. It clearly shows the awkward lunges, the telegraphed body blows, the slowness of the bout, the lack of defense, the lack of jab and combos, etc. I'm not trying to dump on anyone's heroes, but don't try to convince me with what was written. What was written was by writers who, like the fighters, were in the infancy of the Marquis of Queensbury rules and this was all they knew. And the legend has been carried along like luggage throughout the decades. i just happen to be one of those people that don't buy what I'm told until I see it and assess it myself. I believe my baby blues. And this is very damning evidence of what I've been saying for years. That Jeff was a primitive version of George Chuvalo. He absorbed punishment liberally and was fortunate that he fought in the era he did. He feastd on smaller fighters such as Choynski, Sharkey, Fitz, Corbett and in some cases barely made it through. Bob Armstrong was a Scrapiron Johnson/Marion Wilson type spoiler who made Jeff look like crap. I got into an argument on some other site with someone who actually said, "Well, he hadn't hit his prime yet." What?! Wait a minute, he only had 23 fights and I think this was his 20th. He wasn't going to get any better. OK, I'm done with this because now I feel I'm beating him up a bit. He was what came before us and he has legendary status and I'm OK with that. But if you watch this film, take off the rose colored glasses.

[scartissue]

The Twelfth Round of The Best White Heavyweight of All Time Tournament:

Sullivan vs. Schaaf, 15 rounds - Schaaf W15 over Sullivan - Ernie's not getting into a slugfest with JLS, he knows how to box and takes a comfortable 15 rounder.

Jeffries vs. Sharkey, 15 rounds - Sharkey W15 over Jeffries - This could get torrid on the inside and Jeff would be at a distinct disadvantage with the pace that Sharkey was known to set. However, what wins it for Jack is that pole-like jab of his over 15.

Dempsey vs. Klitschko, 15 rounds - Dempsey KO5 Wlad - Although Wlad is far more athletic than the awkward Jess Willard, he isn't going to confuse a fired up Dempsey with that jab-jab-right. He's fighting a dude in bad need of anger management. I'm thinking I'm being a bit kind by saying 5 rounds. It could end much sooner.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

The Twelfth Round of The Best White Heavyweight of All Time Tournament:

Sullivan vs. Schaaf, 15 rounds - Schaaf W15 over Sullivan - Ernie's not getting into a slugfest with JLS, he knows how to box and takes a comfortable 15 rounder.

Jeffries vs. Sharkey, 15 rounds - Sharkey W15 over Jeffries - This could get torrid on the inside and Jeff would be at a distinct disadvantage with the pace that Sharkey was known to set. However, what wins it for Jack is that pole-like jab of his over 15.

Dempsey vs. Klitschko, 15 rounds - Dempsey KO5 Wlad - Although Wlad is far more athletic than the awkward Jess Willard, he isn't going to confuse a fired up Dempsey with that jab-jab-right. He's fighting a dude in bad need of anger management. I'm thinking I'm being a bit kind by saying 5 rounds. It could end much sooner.

Awesome line.

[Ambling Alp II]

Sullivan KO9 Schaaf
Jeffries KO13 Sharkey
Dempsey KO1 Klitschko

[The Great John L]

Sullivan KO Schaaf
Jeffries KO Sharkey
Dempsey KO Klitschko

[HomicideHenry]

Sullivan-Schaaf, 3-2 Schaaf, personally I favor Sullivan, so the vote is now 3-3 EVEN

Jeffries-Sharkey, 3-2 Sharkey, personally I favor Jeffries, so again the vote is 3-3 EVEN

Dempsey-Klitschko, 4-1 Dempsey, I also favor Dempsey, making the vote 5-1

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Voting continues for another few hours, so I would appreciate someone breaking the ties

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Again, as a reminder, Gene Tunney will face the winner of Jeffries/Sharkey

The winner of Dempsey/Klitschko will face the winner of Sullivan/Schaaf

[dempseyfire]

Schaff UD Sullivan (I'm not a fan of John L being in this tournament as I find it extremely difficult to gauge him with later era fighters)

Jefferies KO8 Sharkey

Dempsey KO1 Klitschko

[The Great John L]

Jeffries-Sharkey, 3-2 Sharkey, personally I favor Jeffries, so again the vote is 3-3 EVEN

I counted 3 for Jeff before your vote. Alp, Saad and myself.

[HomicideHenry]

Schaff UD Sullivan (I'm not a fan of John L being in this tournament as I find it extremely difficult to gauge him with later era fighters)

Jefferies KO8 Sharkey

Dempsey KO1 Klitschko

4-3 Schaaf over Sullivan (thus far)

5-2 Jeffries over Sharkey (thus far)*
6-1 Dempsey over Klitschko (pretty much a blow out)

Keep up with the votes!

*Thanks for the correction TheGreat

[dempseyfire]

I'm just messing with you, but you Cooney fans are an amazing bunch.

Saad, everyone sees something different in a fight. For instance, I thought stylistically, the Tunney-Jeffries matchup was a slam-dunk for Gene. Over 15 rounds i could envision a 14-1 scoreline. However, it looks as if Jeff will progress. I have no idea how anyone can come up with a Jeff win unless they're picking him on legend. Has anyone actually watched his prime fight against Gus Ruhlin? No one wants to say it - besmirching the legend and all - but he was woeful. His legend was built on taking gobs of punishment and outlasting the opponent. Over 15 rounds in the modern era, Corbett would have regained his title and the rematch with Fitz would have been stopped in favor of Bob on cuts. So what I'm saying in reference to your Wlad/Cooney analogy, I guess we all see things different.

You must be joking; what is woeful is the quality of the Jefferies-Ruhlin film. That could gauge an entire fighter's worth on what is mostly grainy fuzziness is crazy. One can see from the commentary of the time along with the MUCH higher quality footage of him in training to see Jim was an incredibly athletic big man who carried speed and skills along with his power/strength. That he was just an old time Chuvalo who soaked up punishment is just inaccurate. If that was all it took in that era to become champion Sandy Ferguson would've reigned for years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNJpppvKfSQ

Dempsey, I think I know the version you may have seen. Check out this restored version here. No blur, grainy of course just like that training footage, but that's part and parcel of the times. I didn't come to this conclusion about Jeff in a wild stab. I've been studying Jeff's merits for the last 40 years. This film is a warts and all. It clearly shows the awkward lunges, the telegraphed body blows, the slowness of the bout, the lack of defense, the lack of jab and combos, etc. I'm not trying to dump on anyone's heroes, but don't try to convince me with what was written. What was written was by writers who, like the fighters, were in the infancy of the Marquis of Queensbury rules and this was all they knew. And the legend has been carried along like luggage throughout the decades. i just happen to be one of those people that don't buy what I'm told until I see it and assess it myself. I believe my baby blues. And this is very damning evidence of what I've been saying for years. That Jeff was a primitive version of George Chuvalo. He absorbed punishment liberally and was fortunate that he fought in the era he did. He feastd on smaller fighters such as Choynski, Sharkey, Fitz, Corbett and in some cases barely made it through. Bob Armstrong was a Scrapiron Johnson/Marion Wilson type spoiler who made Jeff look like crap. I got into an argument on some other site with someone who actually said, "Well, he hadn't hit his prime yet." What?! Wait a minute, he only had 23 fights and I think this was his 20th. He wasn't going to get any better. OK, I'm done with this because now I feel I'm beating him up a bit. He was what came before us and he has legendary status and I'm OK with that. But if you watch this film, take off the rose colored glasses.[/quote]

I've seen that version; again I don't think you can garner much from that video. That era had more leading with body blows as the wrong blow to the head with those small gloves coul break your hand; it was also legal to lock your opponents' arm as they came in; thus the continual punch and clinch. But I don't see how one can view the video footage of his Ruhlin training session, in much better quality, and conclude he was slow and clumsy. Even watch the sparring sessions prior to the Johnson fight; he had excellent head movement and had very good defense. And to call Bob Armstrong a Scrap-Iron level fighter is just inaccurate; he was one of the top 6-7 black heavyweights in the country at the time and was known for being fast and hard-hitting.

[The Great John L]

Schaff UD Sullivan (I'm not a fan of John L being in this tournament as I find it extremely difficult to gauge him with later era fighters)

Jefferies KO8 Sharkey

Dempsey KO1 Klitschko

4-3 Schaaf over Sullivan (thus far)

5-2 Jeffries over Sharkey (thus far)*
6-1 Dempsey over Klitschko (pretty much a blow out)

Keep up with the votes!

*Thanks for the correction TheGreat

I just wish there was a mistake on the tally for that first fight...

[HomicideHenry]

I just wish there was a mistake on the tally for that first fight...

As do I TheGreat, as do I... voting continues for a few more hours... so who knows, maybe Sully will get his just due; after all, he was champion of the world for 12 years under two sets of rules, while no offense to Schaaf he never really was all that consistent or great.

[dempseyfire]

I just wish there was a mistake on the tally for that first fight...

As do I TheGreat, as do I... voting continues for a few more hours... so who knows, maybe Sully will get his just due; after all, he was champion of the world for 12 years under two sets of rules, while no offense to Schaaf he never really was all that consistent or great.

I gave John L the benefit of the doubt in bouts with guys with shaky chins, but the bareknuckle style in which he thrived was a different beast to fighting 10-15 rounds with 6 ounce gloves (let alone the later 8-10 ounce gloves). Additionally, the best guys he beat were significantly lighter than him (often middleweights). Schaff wasn't an all-time great but he was a very solid boxer-puncher with a good chin and excellent stamina. He beat the likes of Baer, Loughran, Uzcudun, Stribling, Gross, Maloney, Braddock, and Renault. That's a very respectable resume.

[scartissue]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNJpppvKfSQ

Dempsey, I think I know the version you may have seen. Check out this restored version here. No blur, grainy of course just like that training footage, but that's part and parcel of the times. I didn't come to this conclusion about Jeff in a wild stab. I've been studying Jeff's merits for the last 40 years. This film is a warts and all. It clearly shows the awkward lunges, the telegraphed body blows, the slowness of the bout, the lack of defense, the lack of jab and combos, etc. I'm not trying to dump on anyone's heroes, but don't try to convince me with what was written. What was written was by writers who, like the fighters, were in the infancy of the Marquis of Queensbury rules and this was all they knew. And the legend has been carried along like luggage throughout the decades. i just happen to be one of those people that don't buy what I'm told until I see it and assess it myself. I believe my baby blues. And this is very damning evidence of what I've been saying for years. That Jeff was a primitive version of George Chuvalo. He absorbed punishment liberally and was fortunate that he fought in the era he did. He feastd on smaller fighters such as Choynski, Sharkey, Fitz, Corbett and in some cases barely made it through. Bob Armstrong was a Scrapiron Johnson/Marion Wilson type spoiler who made Jeff look like crap. I got into an argument on some other site with someone who actually said, "Well, he hadn't hit his prime yet." What?! Wait a minute, he only had 23 fights and I think this was his 20th. He wasn't going to get any better. OK, I'm done with this because now I feel I'm beating him up a bit. He was what came before us and he has legendary status and I'm OK with that. But if you watch this film, take off the rose colored glasses.[/quote]

I've seen that version; again I don't think you can garner much from that video. That era had more leading with body blows as the wrong blow to the head with those small gloves coul break your hand; it was also legal to lock your opponents' arm as they came in; thus the continual punch and clinch. But I don't see how one can view the video footage of his Ruhlin training session, in much better quality, and conclude he was slow and clumsy. Even watch the sparring sessions prior to the Johnson fight; he had excellent head movement and had very good defense. And to call Bob Armstrong a Scrap-Iron level fighter is just inaccurate; he was one of the top 6-7 black heavyweights in the country at the time and was known for being fast and hard-hitting.[/quote]

Dempsey, even the writers of this era didn't glorify Bob Armstrong. In the NY Times report on this fight between he and Jeffries, which can be found on boxrec, they referred to Bob as a 3rd rate fighter and also referred to Jeff as slow and clumsy. Bob was a spoiler and nothing more. He was knocked out by Mexican Pete Everett the month before and still made Jeff look like crap. But aside from this, I invite everyone to take the 4:55 out of their lives and look at the youtube piece I posted on the Jeff-Gus Ruhlin fight. It's not Hi-Def, but it's not bad as it has been restored. It's not a training session of Jeff skipping rope, which means absolutely nothing. It is him engaged in a title fight against a contender of the time. I say any good boxer or counter-puncher coming down the pike as the game evolved would have taken his measure. But you decide. Afterall, everyone has their own opinion.

[HomicideHenry]

I gave John L the benefit of the doubt in bouts with guys with shaky chins, but the bareknuckle style in which he thrived was a different beast to fighting 10-15 rounds with 6 ounce gloves (let alone the later 8-10 ounce gloves). Additionally, the best guys he beat were significantly lighter than him (often middleweights). Schaff wasn't an all-time great but he was a very solid boxer-puncher with a good chin and excellent stamina. He beat the likes of Baer, Loughran, Uzcudun, Stribling, Gross, Maloney, Braddock, and Renault. That's a very respectable resume.

In truth Sullivan only had a handful of bare knuckle matches; whereas he had hundreds of gloved matches and exhibitions--- so I think that mindset that he was a BKB fighter soley is rather off putting, considering Sullivan said time and again that the Marquis of Queensbury rules suited him better because it forced men to fight, whereas the older rules allowed wrestling and had loop holes in the system where someone could throw themselves down to the ground to end rounds which only frustrated Sullivan even more.

As for Sullivan fighting lighter men, I cant argue that some of his more famed opponents such as Charlie Mitchell were originally middleweights--- but these were men who routinely fought much larger men and beat them--- after all, skills means more than size. So, maybe Sullivan didn't beat alot of opponents who were of great size/quantity, but he defeated alot of men who were of quality.

Anyways, what's been done can't be undone.... Sullivan, by consensus of the forum, loses to Ernie Schaaf and thus ends his four fight win streak....

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Thirteenth Round of The Best White Heavyweight of All Time Tournament:

Jack Dempsey vs. Ernie Schaaf, 15 rounds

Gene Tunney vs. James J. Jeffries, 15 rounds


Voting begins now, and ends in 24 hours. We are just one short round away from seeing who the greatest white heavyweight of all time was. Have at it gentlemen!

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Dempsey UD
Jeffries UD

[The Great John L]

Jack Dempsey KO Ernie Schaaf (Sullivan might have been able to clip Demps and made a fight of this...)
Gene Tunney Dec James J. Jeffries

[HomicideHenry]

2 for Dempsey, 1-1 EVEN between Tunney and Jeffries....

And I agree TheGreat, Sullivan/Dempsey would of made for a more interesting show down