Basilio was one of the most entertaining fighters ever. I love watching the fights I have of him, but exciting does not neccasarily to equal all time greatness. Among welterweights and middleweights he does not make the top ten in my opinion.
That makes it doubtful if he should make the top 50 p4p list. I'll have to think about that one.
From 6 to 10 i'm not quite sure of the order but I would say these are the top ten welterweights ever. I dont think Basillio was better than an of them at 147.
Dont you think you have Trinidad way to low? The guy was a dominant, long regining champion with alot more name welterweights in his win column than Basilio.
I remember watching the Tony DeMarco-v-Carmen Basilio fight standing on the sidewalk on Whittier Blvd. in East Los Angeles in front of a furniture store that had a smell B/W t.v. on its window , my wife ( we had be married one year at that time ) an i were there with about 25 other people
Trinidad was a great champion who won decisvely all the fights he was knocked down in at that weight. His quality of oppisition was highly respectible. Your letting his lat fight with Wright when he was past his best cast a shadow over his entire career. Yes Trinidad was one dimensional but so was alot of great fighters. Basilio being one of them. Basilio was a straight ahead slugger , an awesome one at that, but could fight no other way.His resume at welterweight is not exactly dominating. He beat good fighters like DeMarco, Saxton and a faded Graham, but he lost his fair share as well.
kikibalt wrote:I remember watching the Tony DeMarco-v-Carmen Basilio fight standing on the sidewalk on Whittier Blvd. in East Los Angeles in front of a furniture store that had a smell B/W t.v. on its window , my wife ( we had be married one year at that time ) an i were there with about 25 other people
Frank Baltazar
Are you Frankie Baltazar, the fighter???
If you are, I always had in my mind that Frankie Baltazar fought Jim Watt, but when I see your recird or Watt's record, it looks that you did not fight him.
Maybe I was hallucinating or something. But I think I saw Jim Watt vs Frankie Baltazar in London, England. Am I correct???
theone wrote:Trinidad was a great champion who won decisvely all the fights he was knocked down in at that weight. His quality of oppisition was highly respectible. Your letting his lat fight with Wright when he was past his best cast a shadow over his entire career. Yes Trinidad was one dimensional but so was alot of great fighters. Basilio being one of them. Basilio was a straight ahead slugger , an awesome one at that, but could fight no other way.His resume at welterweight is not exactly dominating. He beat good fighters like DeMarco, Saxton and a faded Graham, but he lost his fair share as well.
You may be right that Tito was a more dominant champion than Basilio. The record speaks for itself. But Basilio was much of a better boxer than given credit for. If you watch the fight with Tony DeMarco, Basilio had a decent jab and had accurate punches in that fight. He had a heart of a lion. One of the roughest and toughest warriors that I have seen on film. He also used to get stronger as the fight progresses and was very smart fighting low. He was not a total package, but he could fight.
What a fighter. I do not think that Tito was in Basilio's class. Basilio would eat him for dinner.
Tito to me is not even a top 50 all time great. Basilio to me is. He was a hell of a fihgter that won the fights...I mean the fights that counted. I also believe he is a top 10 welterweight and better than Tito at 147.
Nice to see Basilio being remembered for the great fighter he was. By complete coincidence I had just watched his fights with Robinson before I saw this thread, a true warrior.
I think Basilio style was made for tito. Tito would rip him with power shots every time he tried to crowd him , which would be the only way Basilio could hope to win. He didnt hit hard enough to knock Tito out and did not box well enough to earn a decision. Alot lesser fighters than Tito have beaten Basilio, so to say that Basilio would eat him for dinner is silly. In fact it would probably be the other way around. Tito UD, with Basilio face looking like a battered pumpkin.
theone wrote:I think Basilio style was made for tito. Tito would rip him with power shots every time he tried to crowd him , which would be the only way Basilio could hope to win. He didnt hit hard enough to knock Tito out and did not box well enough to earn a decision. Alot lesser fighters than Tito have beaten Basilio, so to say that Basilio would eat him for dinner is silly. In fact it would probably be the other way around. Tito UD, with Basilio face looking like a battered pumpkin.
The way he (Tito) fought Oscar DeLahoya does not seem that he could take on Basilio. Basilio fought stronger and better fighters than Tito...By Far
Tito was good, I do not take away his 15 title defenses, but if Basilio had the same quality of opposition that Tito had he probably would have the same amount of defenses. Just by looking at Basilio's record at 147, we have Kid Gavilan, who was waaaayyy better than Tito, Basilio lost by a close decision. Some say Basilio got robbed. Then he fought good opposition like Tony DeMarco, Johnny Saxton, Ike Williams, Billy Graham, Gil Turner, and later beat Sugar Ray Robinson (any version of Sugar Ray before 1960 is quite good). I do not think Tito at his best could hang with Gavilan.
Basilio had boxing skills, more than given credit for. Just like Jake LaMotta, another that was considered a brute guy, but in reality, if we look close at their fights, Basilio and LaMotta could box.
Tito was one dimensional, and when he starts getting hit, he's like does not want to fight. Basilio was a slugger, but not a brute one. He knew waht he was doing. Basilio had class. He was TRULY A GREAT FIGHTER.
I do not think anyone else in this forum would think of him differently.
Decagon wrote:1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Sugar Ray Leonard
3. Mickey Walker
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Jose Napoles
6. Emile Griffith
7. Tommy Hearns 8. Carmen Basilio
9. Kid Gavilan
10. Tommy Ryan
11. Joe Walcott
12. Pernell Whitaker
13. Jack Britton
14. Luis Rodriguez
15. Charley Burley
16. Roberto Duran
17. Oscar de la Hoya
18. Barney Ross
19. Jack Dempsey
20. Jimmy McClarnin
21. Ted Lewis
22. Sam Langford
23. Felix Trinidad
24. Aaron Pryor
25. Wilfred Benitez
26. Billy Smith
27. Johnny Saxton
28. Benny Paret
29. Fritzie Zivic
30. Carlos Palomino
its amazing the lack of respect barbadoes joe walcott gets sometimes
- i cannot believe billy graham did not make ur top 30 list, did u forget about him?
my top 10 welterweights
1. sugar ray robinson
2. henry armstrong
3. sugar ray leonard
4. joe walcott "barbadoes"
5. Jose Napoles
6. Tommy Hearns
7. Kid Gavilan
8. Barney Ross
9. Emile Griffith
10. Carmen Basillio
Decagon wrote:1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Sugar Ray Leonard
3. Mickey Walker
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Jose Napoles
6. Emile Griffith
7. Tommy Hearns 8. Carmen Basilio
9. Kid Gavilan
10. Tommy Ryan
11. Joe Walcott
12. Pernell Whitaker
13. Jack Britton
14. Luis Rodriguez
15. Charley Burley
16. Roberto Duran
17. Oscar de la Hoya
18. Barney Ross
19. Jack Dempsey
20. Jimmy McClarnin
21. Ted Lewis
22. Sam Langford
23. Felix Trinidad
24. Aaron Pryor
25. Wilfred Benitez
26. Billy Smith
27. Johnny Saxton
28. Benny Paret
29. Fritzie Zivic
30. Carlos Palomino
its amazing the lack of respect barbadoes joe walcott gets sometimes
- i cannot believe billy graham did not make ur top 30 list, did u forget about him?
my top 10 welterweights
1. sugar ray robinson
2. henry armstrong
3. sugar ray leonard
4. joe walcott "barbadoes"
5. Jose Napoles
6. Tommy Hearns
7. Kid Gavilan
8. Barney Ross
9. Emile Griffith
10. Carmen Basillio
That is a good solid list The only problem I had is Griffith at #9. Griffith should be a top 5 welterweight.
if i put griffin at top 5 welter, then i have to put paret and rodriguez in top 10, because paret split 3 very close bouts, and rodriguez argueablly won 3 out of 4 with griffith and was certainly robbed in the 3rd bout.
The way he (Tito) fought Oscar DeLahoya does not seem that he could take on Basilio. Basilio fought stronger and better fighters than Tito...By Far
This makes no sense. Basillio fights nothing like Oscar. Unlike Oscar he would be easy for Trinidad to hit. Basillio at welterweight never fought anyone stronger than Trinidad. He lost to guys who were weaker however. Dont make it out like Basilio was undefeated at welter because he was far from it.
Tito was good, I do not take away his 15 title defenses, but if Basilio had the same quality of opposition that Tito had he probably would have the same amount of defenses.
Everyone Basilio fought at welter did not have Tito's power and had trouble keeping him off. Saxton,Turner, and DeMarco would all have been ko'd by Trinidad. Lesser fighters knocked them all out. Billy Graham and Williams were way past their prime when they fought Basilio.
Gavilan was a great fighters and out of the welters you mentioned I could see him beating Tirinidad. Like he did Basilio. Losing a close fight doesnt neccesarly make it a robbery.
The way he (Tito) fought Oscar DeLahoya does not seem that he could take on Basilio. Basilio fought stronger and better fighters than Tito...By Far
This makes no sense. Basillio fights nothing like Oscar. Unlike Oscar he would be easy for Trinidad to hit. Basillio at welterweight never fought anyone stronger than Trinidad. He lost to guys who were weaker however. Dont make it out like Basilio was undefeated at welter because he was far from it.
Tito was good, I do not take away his 15 title defenses, but if Basilio had the same quality of opposition that Tito had he probably would have the same amount of defenses.
Everyone Basilio fought at welter did not have Tito's power and had trouble keeping him off. Saxton,Turner, and DeMarco would all have been ko'd by Trinidad. Lesser fighters knocked them all out. Billy Graham and Williams were way past their prime when they fought Basilio.
Gavilan was a great fighters and out of the welters you mentioned I could see him beating Tirinidad. Like he did Basilio. Losing a close fight doesnt neccesarly make it a robbery.
Saxton, Turner and DeMarco would outclass guys like Yory Boy Campas and the Oba Carrs. The quality then was totally superior. I cannot picture a guy like Johnny Saxton lose to a Trinidad. Too much boxing skills for Tito to handle. Graham fought Basilio in 1950, I think, a year before fighting Gavilan. Graham split with Basilio. A washed up Graham will beat Campas any time.
Basilio was mentally tough...One of the best in the business in battles of atrittion. Once he knows that all Tito had was the left hook he will nuliified it. Tito was good, but not as good as Basilio.
I cannot picture Tito beating Sugar Ray Robinson...Basilio did and Robinson never gave him a rematch after the second meeting. Let's not forget that Robinson could bang too, and Basilio took his best shots for 30 rounds. I am going to check his record and Tito's record.
Basilio is one of the great welterweights...What a fighter!!!
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:if i put griffin at top 5 welter, then i have to put paret and rodriguez in top 10, because paret split 3 very close bouts, and rodriguez argueablly won 3 out of 4 with griffith and was certainly robbed in the 3rd bout.
Well, I saw Griffith-Paret II and I think they robbed Griffith on that one. Griffith won all the 3 fights...He simply was better than Paret.
With Luis Manuel Rodriguez, the second probably may be on Rodriguez favor, but those were fights very hard to score. I mean the 4 fights.
Luis Manuel Rodriguez could be a top 10 welterweigtht. I do no have a problem with that. He was very good.
I just saw Basilio's record at welterweight and Tito's record too. At 147, the quality of opposition of Basilio by far was better than Tito's.
My correction: Basilio fought Graham in 1952 and 1953 and NOT in 1950 like I said. I was wrong on that one. Graham fought Gavilan for the last time in 1952. That fight was after he fought Basilio.
kikibalt wrote:I remember watching the Tony DeMarco-v-Carmen Basilio fight standing on the sidewalk on Whittier Blvd. in East Los Angeles in front of a furniture store that had a smell B/W t.v. on its window , my wife ( we had be married one year at that time ) an i were there with about 25 other people
Frank Baltazar
Are you Frankie Baltazar, the fighter???
If you are, I always had in my mind that Frankie Baltazar fought Jim Watt, but when I see your recird or Watt's record, it looks that you did not fight him.
Maybe I was hallucinating or something. But I think I saw Jim Watt vs Frankie Baltazar in London, England. Am I correct???
I'm Frank Baltazar Sr. Frankie is my son, an no he never fought
I just saw Basilio's record at welterweight and Tito's record too. At 147, the quality of opposition of Basilio by far was better than Tito's.
I come to the opposite conclusion but alot closer than you have it. Tito beat better competition ,at welter, and was more successful all-round at the weight.
