'The Great' John L. Sullivan ~ "Not So Great"

[BoxBuzz]

[HomicideHenry]

Alright.... I've had enough of this constant trolling on this forum. If it isnt Ali, it's bringing up journeymen and parlaying them as being some how threats to Ali, or its opinion posts like this that have no merit, or baring on reality what so ever... I've listened long enough, and I think the majority of people have as well... I have been a member to this site since I was in the 8th grade, and that was nearly fifteen years ago--- and I am sick and tired of this constant flooding of bullshit from this guy who only brings down the respectability of the fornicating forum.

[BoxBuzz]

HH....He will tell you and me with a straight face that this is his belief.

Are you saying you reject his beliefs? As I do?

Although, I like his fantasy opinion on Monzon...I even agree with it, I just didn't know such documentation or credible journalistic work had been done to support what I also believe to be true.

He says he has it, he does hold out some "also ran newspapers" who did publish some stuff that seemed to support it. It's from some of the less credible journals and publications, but it has it's believers I guess....I'm one of the ones who "suspects" much of it to be true.

In the case of Ali...I'm on the other side......I suspect he's full of bull when he cites the less credible publications or seemingly makes stuff up from whole cloth.

Hell I don't know when or if he ever tells the truth.

So as the zany mod that I am, I am standing firm for his right to fictionalize here. However, in his Ali rantings he surely has some staunch supporters....folks who I have to come to respect. And unlike Space Mountie, he does not molest other threads, and simply yell fire in a crowded theater. His convictions appear to some to be authentic. Though he does seem to choose his timing to express them just when it may cause a bit of drama. I'm no big fan of that timing.

He did respond well to the one warning I gave him regarding threatening others and has not repeated his action.

So he stays. Until he clearly breaks a rule 3 times unless he transgresses in some sort of unforgivable manner. And simply having a variant and eccentric opinion is not breaking a rule. I can't stand much of his blather....and I clearly state my opinion within his threads.

You may do this also. Or like evnrb...I suppose we can choose to leave when an opinion is such that we feel morally offended.....I'm sure the Queen has stopped visiting this site since his arrival.

By the way, take a good close look at what he said here. This is what pushed you over the top? He's simply taking on the first Queesbury champion and saying maybe he's not all people thought he was. Something along the lines of what's being said about Jack Johnson on another thread.

Off with his head! Really?

[HomicideHenry]

To me all his threads border on the ridiculous---- he seldom offers no proof, point or merit to his posts, regardless of subject or context. I'm just tired of it.

[HomicideHenry]

Besides that, does this dumbass realise that BEFORE Sullivan there was at least 250 years of boxing champions? Figg, Broughton, Cribb, Mace, just to name a few. LEGENDS of the sport. Totally dismissed--- without battering an eye---- because this asshole wants to say Sullivan wasn't great, because 125 years of boxing has since followed him, and historians say Sullivan was THE GREATEST HEAVYWEIGHT BOXER that ever lived (1700's through turn of the 20th century, anyways), that is one heck of a insult.

What Sullivan did for boxing cannot be overstated, he took a sport that was considered LOWER than rat baiting in the eyes of the establishment into being the NUMBER ONE PAST TIME, and made the heavyweight title THE GREATEST PRIZE IN SPORTS. He did it single handedly. All other champions BEFORE him, over the course of 250 years, were not able to do so much as a tenth of what he did.

"The Great" John L. Sullivan, is a title well suited.

[BoxBuzz]

Besides that, does this dumbass realise that BEFORE Sullivan there was at least 250 years of boxing champions? Figg, Broughton, Cribb, Mace, just to name a few. LEGENDS of the sport. Totally dismissed--- without battering an eye---- because this asshole wants to say Sullivan wasn't great, because 125 years of boxing has since followed him, and historians say Sullivan was THE GREATEST HEAVYWEIGHT BOXER that ever lived (1700's through turn of the 20th century, anyways), that is one heck of a insult.

What Sullivan did for boxing cannot be overstated, he took a sport that was considered LOWER than rat baiting in the eyes of the establishment into being the NUMBER ONE PAST TIME, and made the heavyweight title THE GREATEST PRIZE IN SPORTS. He did it single handedly. All other champions BEFORE him, over the course of 250 years, were not able to do so much as a tenth of what he did.

"The Great" John L. Sullivan, is a title well suited.

Yep I agree, and this is what strains credulity for me. Is he purely trolling? That is the question isn't it. And it's subjective. What he IS is educating. Don't fall for crap, or you end up in it. lol

[BoxBuzz]

"you don't say?"

[SamWise72]

Maybe there should be an explicit "boxing fiction" forum?

[BoxBuzz]

Maybe there should be an explicit "boxing fiction" forum?

Hmmm.....

[HomicideHenry]

You could make this exact post about you in the Sim.

The Sim forum is all about fantasy. This is a forum devoted to reality, true history. That is the difference. This forum is about educating people, setting the facts straight, and setting an example to would be fans by providing accurate information about past greats, champions, etc. What this man is doing is just mocking the entire process with his own take on reality.

'The Not So Great' ~ John L Sullivan

A not so great "Smoker Bout Bully" when he first started out in March 1879 as a 20 year-old.

The 6' 1" ~ 196 lb. was a 'nothing much' slammer as he fought primarily in the Northeast thru late 1893.

A few 'non' competitive bouts on the West Coast in early-1894 proved little to those who watched this
lightly-skilled and glorified Bar-Bouncer from Boston.

A 'Mid-West' 6-Month 'Barn-Storming' tour was added in late-1893 thru the Spring of 1894. Reports were,
that this limited-skilled barrel-chested Bully should be used for a Circus Strongman, and not in the
Ring for skilled pugilistic matches.

A return back East in May 1894, had 'The Not So Great' ~ John L. Sullivan having easy 'slam-bang' affairs
in Boston, New York, Chicago, Cincinnati and Pittsburg.

Most of this Boston Brawler's opponents were little 170 lb. weaklings who had no power and average pugilistic
skills at best.

Despite having a record of 33-0-0 {30 KO's}, there were very few who regarded John L. Sullivan as a
Box Office Star.

On January 19, 1885 ~ an 'out-of-shape' 26 year-old ~ John L. Sullivan in his 'supposed prime' took on
a near-broke, pathetically bloated and washed-up {220 lbs.} 32 year-old - Paddy Ryan in a Match at
Madison Square Garden.

The bout was 'stopped' after One-Round, as it was apparent that neither fighter was capable of hurting
the other, unless they 'beer bellied' one another.

If any of this was true, I would shake your hand and acknowledge you were telling the truth, but none of this is accurate in the least. Sullivan, even before turning pro, was turning heads in the world of pugilism when he was knocking out veteran boxers in exhibition bouts in his home state--- such was his power, ferocity and determination that it engulfed experience, expertise and ability. In less than five pro bouts, he was already being called the best heavyweight in not just America but the entire world. He destroyed Paddy Ryan, the champion of the world, in less than eight minutes---- when not even a year or so before, Sullivan was a bricklayer, hod carrier, and plumber's assistant. This man was alot of talent--- Sullivan was fast, powerful, picked up on tricks of the trade under fire, etc. by the time he reached his peak years he was an excellent feinter and counter puncher. True, some of his more famed foes were smaller than traditional heavyweights, or even light heavyweights--- but this was a time when SKILLS more than SIZE meant something in boxing. This 'attitude' of skills being more than size, lasted until the 1930's when men like Mickey Walker (a welterweight/middleweight champ) fought guys like Jack Sharkey on a regular basis.

True, by the time of Sullivan's first 'world' tour, he was hitting a decline but let's be honest here; outside of Peter Jackson--- even the fat John L. Sullivan--- was the supreme fighter on the planet. Never forget, this was a man who almost died--- was written off by the press--- but did a complete turn around and ANNIHILATED the press corps new champion Jake Kilrain. Sullivan, no matter how drunk he got, how fat he got, how inactive he got, always came out on top--- and it isnt because he fought small men, or old men, or was in an inept era in comparison to later eras--- it was because he couldnt be matched for strength, stamina, ferocity, toughness, and cunning in the ring.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I agree that Sullivan is vastly overrated by many.

[Bobbyptsd]

I've actually seen people come into a thread and marvel at his boxing knowledge. It's kind of depressing.

And I don't mean people being sarcastic, I mean people who perhaps don't know quite as much as some about the history, and just take it at face value.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I don't see it as subjective or misguided or anything else. He knows exactly what he's doing. He's full of shite, and he wants to spread it around as much as possible.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

If those people take everything they read as gospel then they won't know much about anything.

[HomicideHenry]

I agree that Sullivan is vastly overrated by many.

I don't see how, when Sullivan seldom ever comes up in boxing discussions--- mainly because people simply dont have enough knowledge of the era, and because people assume he was more a bare knuckle fighter (untrue, btw) than a gloved one---- they always tend to say "You can't compare apples to oranges" and write Sullivan off, because they can't fathom in their mind how he would of faired against better known boxers in later eras.

People tend to either be nostalgic of 'olde times' or rather critical of earlier eras, citing that men/women athletes are faster, stronger, bigger, etc. than their predecessors. Both trains of thought are the wrong course to take when evaluating any athlete from any era. That's why I appreciate (greatly) Adam Pollack, author of the IN THE RING series, because he takes newspaper accounts from the eras to gain a better picture of fighters in their perspective times; and men like Michael T. Isenberg who penned 'John L. Sullivan and His America' because we get to see not only what Sullivan accomplished, but in the circumstances of 19th century America of how he did it.

I like how one fighting man said it once, "In those days you couldn't whip a farmer, let alone a prizefighter," because conditions were tougher, harder then. Men and women both had to stand behind a plow all day and into the night--- had to carry bricks all day, all night. There was no unions and worker's compensation, or safe labor practices. If you worked, you worked fifteen hour days, and often for a dollar a day. Want a look into 19th century life? Look at the Amish. I would bet $100 that even an athlete today, would struggle to keep up with that kind of work. THEN--- throw in training camps, where men trained to fight for several hours if necessary. Not this crap of training four rounds, eight rounds, ten rounds, twelve rounds, etc. You didn't win back then UNLESS you literally knocked someone out or they flat out quit.

And considering the fact Sullivan knocked out THOSE kind of men, often in four-eight minutes time, speaks volumes of what kind of man he was in the ring regardless of what rules he fought under. But, I am sure people will say "That doesnt mean anything" or "Well, Rufus you are being a bit nostalgic yourself are you not?" and I have to say "No" to both because I aint stating a personal bias here, but simply telling a common truth--- people did live tougher lives back then, and boxers did train to fight for several hours if need be back then. That cannot be disputed. Sure, I will agree, reflexes and a higher volume of punches has come in time--- but mainly due to changes in rules, and in equipment. Give one of these champions out there today 3 ounce gloves, stuffed with horse hair, and see if they would be able to throw the high volume punches that they do with modern foam gloves weighing 10 ounces. They wouldnt, because they would bust their hands all to pieces if they tried.

I guess we can play "You say potato, I say potata" all day and all night, but some of us will never see eye to eye or agree on much of anything--- but its a damn shame that people get written off because A) they are from earlier eras, B) there isn't much knowledge of those times, C) in earlier times weight classes didn't necessarily make the man, but rather performances against elite names, etc.

I ain't saying Sullivan is up there with Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Dempsey, Marciano, etc. but I do maintain from the early 1700's up until 1892, there was no greater heavyweight boxer to hold the world's championship than John L. Sullivan--- and that means a hell of alot when one looks at the big picture in the long and storied history of this sport that goes back to the Coliseum.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Too long for me. I wouldn't rate him in the all time top 40.

[HomicideHenry]

Too long for me. I wouldn't rate him in the all time top 40.

Well, I am glad you can just throw out a number like that without really going into detail and giving reasons (outside of personal bias) why you believe that to be so. But then again, you happen to do that all the time, even with modern heavyweights like Vladimir Klitschko.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Too long for me. I wouldn't rate him in the all time top 40.

Well, I am glad you can just throw out a number like that without really going into detail and giving reasons (outside of personal bias) why you believe that to be so. But then again, you happen to do that all the time, even with modern heavyweights like Vladimir Klitschko.

[Giancarlo]

I've actually seen people come into a thread and marvel at his boxing knowledge. It's kind of depressing.

And I don't mean people being sarcastic, I mean people who perhaps don't know quite as much as some about the history, and just take it at face value.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I don't see it as subjective or misguided or anything else. He knows exactly what he's doing. He's full of shite, and he wants to spread it around as much as possible.

The internet is a great thing for lonely shut-in nutters like Il Duce.

Imagine what he'd be like if he didn't have an outlet, courtesy of his Uncle Buzz, to get all this shite out of his sytem.

With the internet safety valve, he can safely live in the community and the only give-away that he is a total nutjob is the pervading stench of stale urine and body odour as he shuffles to the shop for his frozen dinners for one.

It's a kind of life I suppose.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

The main basis of any rankings I have would start with opposition. Neither of them have much of it to speak of.

[Bobbyptsd]

If those people take everything they read as gospel then they won't know much about anything.

Well, I'm assuming they look here and figure a guy who goes on at length with thread after thread full of "quotes" and "figures" knows what he's talking about, and isn't just spouting B.S.

They would be wrong, and it is on them to figure that out sure, but it doesn't stop me from finding what he does reproachable.

As I've said before, if he just said: "I don't like Ali because...." or: "I don't think Sullivan was great because..." I'd have no problem with him. But the way he just fabricates stuff is insidious and deliberately misleading.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

If those people take everything they read as gospel then they won't know much about anything.

Well, I'm assuming they look here and figure a guy who goes on at length with thread after thread full of "quotes" and "figures" knows what he's talking about, and isn't just spouting B.S.

They would be wrong, and it is on them to figure that out sure, but it doesn't stop me from finding what he does reproachable.

As I've said before, if he just said: "I don't like Ali because...." or: "I don't think Sullivan was great because..." I'd have no problem with him. But the way he just fabricates stuff is insidious and deliberately misleading.

Meh, people do the same stuff over all sections of this forum every day. HH just spouted off a complete lie about me, Brut does it several times a day as well as Intentionally Bad, somehow I manage to get through the day and sleep at night.

[Giancarlo]

As I've said before, if he just said: "I don't like Ali because...." or: "I don't think Sullivan was great because..." I'd have no problem with him. But the way he just fabricates stuff is insidious and deliberately misleading.

And that's the reason he has been banned from several boxing forums.

I can follow Buzz' reasoning for allowing him to remain. However, I'd be happier if he deleted the posts where he attributes 'quotes' to boxers. They are all made up. That would smarten him up double quick and make him think before churning out his nonsense.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Or he could just not type the quote in front of the exact same stuff. Half the time he uses 'this' format which, correct me if I'm wrong, is essentially making fun of himself.

[lefty]

I've actually seen people come into a thread and marvel at his boxing knowledge. It's kind of depressing.

And I don't mean people being sarcastic, I mean people who perhaps don't know quite as much as some about the history, and just take it at face value.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I don't see it as subjective or misguided or anything else. He knows exactly what he's doing. He's full of shite, and he wants to spread it around as much as possible.

The internet is a great thing for lonely shut-in nutters like Il Duce.

Imagine what he'd be like if he didn't have an outlet, courtesy of his Uncle Buzz, to get all this shite out of his sytem.

With the internet safety valve, he can safely live in the community and the only give-away that he is a total nutjob is the pervading stench of stale urine and body odour as he shuffles to the shop for his frozen dinners for one.

It's a kind of life I suppose.

fornicate me, you've got me down to a tee!

[Giancarlo]

I've actually seen people come into a thread and marvel at his boxing knowledge. It's kind of depressing.

And I don't mean people being sarcastic, I mean people who perhaps don't know quite as much as some about the history, and just take it at face value.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I don't see it as subjective or misguided or anything else. He knows exactly what he's doing. He's full of shite, and he wants to spread it around as much as possible.

The internet is a great thing for lonely shut-in nutters like Il Duce.

Imagine what he'd be like if he didn't have an outlet, courtesy of his Uncle Buzz, to get all this shite out of his sytem.

With the internet safety valve, he can safely live in the community and the only give-away that he is a total nutjob is the pervading stench of stale urine and body odour as he shuffles to the shop for his frozen dinners for one.

It's a kind of life I suppose.

eff me, you've got me down to a tee!

There's still hope for you Lefty.

But if you start 'quoting' boxers with your own thoughts, I'll have to send Spud around to see you.