dempseyfire wrote:
Rufus, I'm one of the staunchest defenders of the "old timers" on this forum and also berate those who claim smaller heavyweights ie 180-200 lbers were "too small" to compete with the pumped up loafs of today. But this is ridiculous.
Sure, people had tougher lives and lived lives of labor that generally made them stronger (and fitter) than people in more modern times after the decline of craft/agricultural jobs and the introduction of the automobile. But that still doesn't mean that knocking out some local tough farmboy means ANYTHING from a historical perspective. As you even said, in boxing it is skills that pay the bills. It doesn't matter how "tough" the local sluggers were; they were out of their element and I'd rank Tyson's victories over the bums he fought in his first 15 fights over Sullivan knocking out some small time rancher who had a reputation for knocking out the drunks at the saloon. And as for any of the opponents Sullivan fought noted for their boxing skill, none weighed more than 170 lbs; the best one, Mitchell, barely weighed above welterweight for crying out loud. Size is over-rated, but there is a point on the spectrum when it ends up being a major handicap, and that is the case when you're talking about guys in the 150s-60s fighting natural 200 lbers who are considered all-time greats.
I have no doubt Sullivan had great offensive skills; that he had speed and power, and was a great counter-puncher and feinter. But greatness fundamentally comes from fighting great opponents, and in that regard Sullivan's career is extremely lacking. Despite being not in top shape and inactive, I think the fact that Corbett basically kicked John L's a$$ with ease and that Jim was the first true HEAVYWEIGHT with skills he'd ever fought (and Corbett was a small one with a prime weight of around 180) says a fair deal. A great fighter whose place in history is built more upon the legend and lore than actual ring accomplishments.
#1- Records in that time, and even into the 1930's, are incomplete. Most the fighters that Sullivan fought were considered either international/national/regional powerhouses--- it shouldn't be held against them that we modern 'experts' don't have a clear/accurate picture of them, because records weren't anywhere near as compiled as they are today. Prime example, Jem Roche. For almost 100 years it was assumed he fought Tommy Burns in his pro debut; and people always wondered out loud how the hell he was the champion of Ireland, or even got in contention. Therefore, historians/experts always assumed Burns just fought inept challengers, and therefore he himself was a weak heavyweight champion. Come to find out, here on this very website, SteveO provided evidence to the contrary that Roche had well over thirty professional contests before facing Burns, etc. The same can be said of the men Sullivan faced--- take Paddy Ryan for example. The records as we know them today says he had but three-five matches as a pro. Yet, how is it he was known as the champion of the 'Erie Canal and Great Lakes' before even fighting for the world title? Because he fought more than records show. Hell, we are still finding old, yellowing newspaper clippings of matches Jack Dempsey took part in under the name Kid Blackie. Again--- you cannot say people are 'inept/inadequate' or write them off as bums, because you have no idea as to what they fully accomplished as pros.
#2- You bring up size and criticize Sullivan because his more famous challenges came from essentially middleweight sized men--- you bring up Mitchell as your evidence. Okay, well let's examine Mitchell and his bouts with Sullivan. (Btw, Sullivan's prime weight was about 195, cruiserweight). He was not only the middleweight champion of Great Britain, but also its heavyweight champion; he was no stranger to facing men who outweighed him by as much as forty pounds. And as mentioned, he fought Sullivan twice--- but the difference is both matches were fought under two different rules--- the first match was a one sided blow out with Mitchell hitting the canvas fast and often and it was ended in less than three rounds (Marquis of Queensbury), and the second match was held in an orchard on a rainy day, under London Prize Ring rules which allowed a man to throw himself down to the ground to end rounds--- that is the sole reason, the only reason, why Mitchell lasted almost two hours with Sullivan in that contest. The same result happened in the Kilrain fight--- Sullivan all but killed Kilrain in less than eight-ten minutes of fighting, and from that point on Kilrain threw himself to the ground to end rounds, and lasted an additional hour and half. That was the main reason why Sullivan preferred fighting under the MQ rules because it forced men to fight, rather than wrestle and throw themselves down to the ground to save themselves from further punishment. In short, under MQ rules Sullivan did as what any heavyweight would do against a middleweight, regardless of ability and prowess. So your picture of Sully is a bit askewed and inaccurate. He did as expected to Mitchell: he annihilated him.
#3- Bringing up the Corbett fight as 'evidence' that Sullivan was not a good fighter, is about the same as showing a would be boxing fan a film of Muhammad Ali vs. Larry Holmes and saying Ali wasn't a good fighter; or showing a film of Rocky Marciano vs. Joe Louis and saying Joe wasn't a good fighter; or showing a film of Jim Jeffries vs. Jack Johnson, and saying it was Johnson's best win and performance. After the Kilrain fight, Sullivan had no desire to fight anymore--- regardless of rules. He had amassed a fortune in the sport, and was making several thousand dollars a week being an actor in stage productions around the world. He loved being the champion, but he no longer wanted to defend it. That is why, he put in the papers that he would only defend the title if someone could raise not only a $25,000 purse but also put up $10,000 a side and it be winner take all. That was unheard of money in those days--- and in truth, I don't believe Fitzsimmons, Jeffries, and Hart came close to making that sort of purse ($45,000) in their own careers. It was never expected that someone could actually raise that sort of money---- for a modern perspective and comparison, it was very much like when Roy Jones said he would fight Mike Tyson, if someone could come up with a $100,000,000 purse. Unfortunately for Sullivan, someone was able to. Sully by this time was obese, greying, and wasn't active anymore--- the only sparring he done in three years, essentially, was the mock sparring he did on the stage in plays. Though he was given upwards of six months to train for Corbett, Sully had no real interest in the fight, no matter what he told the press or penned in his autobiography. He trained not even one month and private physicians told him not to do the fight--- he did it anyways. Corbett, whom Jack Johnson said was the greatest tactician he had ever seen, was quite possibly also the fastest heavyweight champion--- old greybeards who were young men in Corbett's day, who were still alive to see Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali said that 'Gentlemen' Jim was a shade faster. And still, Sullivan went twenty-one rounds before finally being dropped. Even Corbett would admit in later years that Sullivan at his best would of beaten him. After the Corbett fight, Sully turned all the more fatter and greyer, looking more like Saint Nicholas rather than a former world's champion. Though he was still in his 30's, people were calling him "Old John L. Sullivan", such was the ravages of alcohol and fast living.
