top 10 heavyweights of all time HEAD TO HEAD

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 02 Dec 2005, 02:09

commonly, u will see most lists based on historical signifigance but not based on head to head greatest.

so whats ur top 10 greatest heavyweights based on head to head?

my top 25 - I take there peak year

1. joe louis- 6'2 207lb 1942

2. muhammad ali- 6'3 213lb 1967

3. mike tyson- 5'10 218lb 1988

4. Larry Holmes- 6'4 212lb 1981

5. Jack Johnson- 6'1 192lb 1908

6. Rocky Marciano- 5'11 185lb 1953

7. Jack Dempsey 6'1 187lb 1919

8. George Foreman- 6'3 217lb 1973

9. Sonny Liston- 6'1 214lb 1962

10. Joe Frazier- 6' 205lb 1971

11. Lennox Lewis 6'5 226lb 1992

12. Jersey Joe Walcott 6' 197lb 1947

13. Ezzard Charles- 6' 182lb 1949

14. Gene Tunney- 6'1 190lb 1926

15. James Jeffries- 6'2 211lb 1901

16. sam Langford- 5'7 185lb 1911

17. Riddick Bowe - 6'5 235lb 1992

18. Evander Holyfield- 6'2 205lb 1992

19. Max Baer- 6'3 203lb 1933

20. Max schmeling - 6'1 192lb 1936

21. Ken Norton- 6'3 217lb 1976

22. Floyd Patterson- 6' 190lb 1960

23 Peter Jackson - 6'2 200lb 1891

24 Joe Jeanette - 5'10 195lb 1909

25. sam mcvey 5'11 215lb 1911

how bout ur head to head list??

THIS IS WAY TOO HARD TO DO, I HATE DOING THESE LISTS. MY # 5-10 ARE ALL MESSED UP I DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH THEM, ITS TOO HARD TO PUT IN ORDER.

e.c.flurry · Post by **e.c.flurry** » 02 Dec 2005, 02:24

well thats a real nut cracker for me ive actually been trying to make a head head on peak years but i have my damn notebook in work i dont have enough time to even complete the list

if it were like a tournament altough there is a lot reall tough prime competition i would end up going with 2 best on most list louis and ali.

i would also favor underdogs walcott and tunney there unsua styles could given a lot of fighters problem altough they could lose with big punchers if im going for upset it would be one of these fighters

again i dont have enough info on langford it would be really hard to even talk about him.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 02 Dec 2005, 02:46

like i said its hard to rank. not all of the people i rate above liston would beat him. i think liston beats foreman head to head.

its just while i think foreman knocks out marciano and dempsey, i believe its 50-50 that rocky and dempsey beat liston and i lean toward them both beating him.

joe frazier rated 10th, but i think he would beat holmes whos ranked 4th, so like i said its hard to squeeze everyone in.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 02 Dec 2005, 02:49

peak tyson would KO liston. tyson is faster, better defense, and IMO hes a greater all around puncher and throws better more accurate combinations.

this matchup is the bully vs bully. but IMO tyson has proven he has more heart, and tyson defitnley proved he had more stamina.

tyson gets so underated head to head its not even funny. were talking a peak 1986-88 tyson here. he would beat most heavies in history.

i am not one of those people who think the holyfield fight proved he cant handle adversity and would fold when it gest tough. thaat was a way past his prime tyson in there!!

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 02 Dec 2005, 05:40

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:peak tyson would KO liston. tyson is faster, better defense, and IMO hes a greater all around puncher and throws better more accurate combinations.

this matchup is the bully vs bully. but IMO tyson has proven he has more heart, and tyson defitnley proved he had more stamina.

tyson gets so underated head to head its not even funny. were talking a peak 1986-88 tyson here. he would beat most heavies in history.

i am not one of those people who think the holyfield fight proved he cant handle adversity and would fold when it gest tough. thaat was a way past his prime tyson in there!!

The thing is Tyson was never stretched in the period you mention. Liston was past his prime when he fought Ali but you are prepared to use that evidence to say Tyson has more heart. Liston does better than Tyson in head-to-head IMO. Tyson at 4 I just can't justify in any way. Yes, he blows away a lot of fighters but the top men all beat him IMO.

One guy who I think would do very well in a head-to-head rating system is Johnson. His defence, intelligence and combination of speed and power would stand him in good stead.

I also think a motivated and well-trained Bowe would fair very well in this kind of ranking.

Cojimar 1945 · Post by **Cojimar 1945** » 02 Dec 2005, 06:41

Newspaper accounts indicate that some tale of the tape measurements for certain heavyweight champions were inaccurate. This might give people inaccurate perceptions about how certain fighters would compare in size.

theone · Post by **theone** » 02 Dec 2005, 07:38

1. Ali
2.Foreman
3.Frazier
4.Holmes
5.Tyson
6.Holyfield
7.Lewis
8.Louis
9.Liston
10.Dempsey

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 02 Dec 2005, 08:10

theone wrote:1. Ali
2.Foreman
3.Frazier
4.Holmes
5.Tyson
6.Holyfield
7.Lewis
8.Louis
9.Liston
10.Dempsey

8 guys over joe louis?

fraziers too high, he was a great fight top 10 but he wouldnt fear well in slugging matchups with the better two fisted fighters. fraizer also was very predictable, he did the same motion over and over again and his headmovement was easy to time.

holyfield over dempsey, marciano, AND JOE LOUISS????

frazier over joe louis???

marciano not on the list?

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 02 Dec 2005, 12:01

that was not a peak tyson in there vs douglas. only true tyson haters believe that.

a peak tyson knocks out douglas quick. watch the douglas fight, ull notice the difference between the 86-88 tyson and tyson that night.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 02 Dec 2005, 12:06

Tyson proved he had more stamina? Even in his prime he never kept up the work-rate Liston did vs Machen and Whitehurst. In the Machen fight Liston is jabbing and feinting in the 11th as much as he is in the 3rd. His stamina in his prime was excellent. Liston would eat up Tyson. Too much strength, too much jab, too much toughness. Tyson's blueprint worst opponent is a strong guy with a good jab with a good chin and power to make Mike respect him. That's Liston in a nutshell.

My top 15 head to head.

1) Joe Louis
2) Jack Johnson
3) Sonny Liston
4) Ali
5) Larry Holmes
6) George Foreman
7) Jack Dempsey
8) Joe Frazier
9) Jersey Joe Walcott
10) Rocky Marciano

11) Evander Holyfield
12) Lennox Lewis
13) Mike Tyson
14) Jimmy Young
15) Gene Tunney

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 02 Dec 2005, 12:11

dempseyfire wrote:Tyson proved he had more stamina? Even in his prime he never kept up the work-rate Liston did vs Machen and Whitehurst. In the Machen fight Liston is jabbing and feinting in the 11th as much as he is in the 3rd. His stamina in his prime was excellent. Liston would eat up Tyson. Too much strength, too much jab, too much toughness. Tyson's blueprint worst opponent is a strong guy with a good jab with a good chin and power to make Mike respect him. That's Liston in a nutshell.

I'm in complete agreement with that assessment.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 02 Dec 2005, 12:16

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:that was not a peak tyson in there vs douglas. only true tyson haters believe that.

a peak tyson knocks out douglas quick. watch the douglas fight, ull notice the difference between the 86-88 tyson and tyson that night.

That's such a get out... You can't call someone a Tyson hater just because they don't think 24 years of age is past prime. I've got no reason to hate Tyson, none at all. I was a big fan of his during this time.

there is an abundance of evidence to show that Mike could overcome some very very good fighters but nothing to suggest that he could ever deal with someone like Liston.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 02 Dec 2005, 12:37

Ezzard wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:that was not a peak tyson in there vs douglas. only true tyson haters believe that.

a peak tyson knocks out douglas quick. watch the douglas fight, ull notice the difference between the 86-88 tyson and tyson that night.
That's such a get out... You can't call someone a Tyson hater just because they don't think 24 years of age is past prime. I've got no reason to hate Tyson, none at all. I was a big fan of his during this time.

there is an abundance of evidence to show that Mike could overcome some very very good fighters but nothing to suggest that he could ever deal with someone like Liston.

I too was a huge Tyson fan, but have mixed feelings on this discussion. While Tyson may not have been at his best against Douglas, he wasn't very far from it, and I have seen just about every Tyson fight several times. Douglas came in with a fightplan, good speed and boxing skills and with confidence. Tyson at his best may not have been able to beat the Douglas that showed up that night. Even at his best he could be hit with right hands, as he was often times in many of his pre Douglas fights. And while he did have good head movement, he would often times get lazy and walk straight in. And even at his best, his attack slowed after about 4-5 rounds. It's these weaknesses that Douglas and his team exploited.

As far as Tyson against Liston. I'm not sure what evidence you would need, but perhaps Tyson completely destroying just about everybody put in front of him could be enough evidence to suggest that Tyson had a pretty good shot against Liston, as well as most of the past HW champs. Liston did not have the hand or foot speed of Douglas, and he would have had a terrible time dealing with Tyson's speed. And Listons physical strength would mean little in this fight since Tyson was probably every bit as strong as Liston. I think a prime Tyson would have had an excellent chance of taking the fight inside where Liston would have had a very difficult time avoiding Tyson's fast inside combinations.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 02 Dec 2005, 12:45

Even in his prime he never kept up the work-rate Liston did vs Machen

o please, liston got some rounds off while machen was recovering from the low blows. liston instea of finishing machen off took rounds off cause he was tiring.

dempseyfire,

jersey joe walcott over marciano?

i like how u have him in top 10, interesting pick though i have walcott at 12 which is very high compared to how others will rate him.

Randineous · Post by **Randineous** » 02 Dec 2005, 14:15

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:that was not a peak tyson in there vs douglas. only true tyson haters believe that.

a peak tyson knocks out douglas quick. watch the douglas fight, ull notice the difference between the 86-88 tyson and tyson that night.

What's the difference between the Tyson of the Douglas fight and the one from the Spinks fight?

Tyson's pre-fight activities before the Douglas fight have been well documented, so no need to go down that road again. But how many times do you hear about the difficulties Tyson was facing entering the fight with Spinks (which most consider the best version of Tyson)?

Going into the Spinks fight Tyson was dealing with a shitty marriage, the loss of his most trusted friend & co-manager in Jim Jacobs, and battles in court with his other co-manager, Bill Cayton. There was also plenty of rumblings in the press that Tyson had not nearly prepared himself in training as well as he could have. And of course his emotional state of mind couldn't have been the strongest, since it was only just over a month after the Spinks fight when Tyson made a suicide attempt by driving his Mercedes Benz straight into a tree.

Yet, that version of Tyson is considered to be in his "prime", but the version of Tyson that fought Douglas was not, even though he likely had less outside distractions going into it?

"Oh, but he didn't have Kevin Rooney in his corner when facing Douglas."

Oh, but he did have Kevin Rooney in his corner when facing Nino Ribalta in his "prime", who used a somewhat similiar gameplan to what Douglas used in Tokyo (jabs & movement from the ouside, as well as smart clinching & uppercuts on the inside). Are you telling me that you were impressed with that version of Tyson against a similiar opponent to Douglas (although not nearly as talented), even though, like in Tokyo, Tyson didn't use a whole lot of head movement or combination punching against Ribalta?

If so, Tyson himself would disagree with you as illustrated in his postfight comments after the Ribalta fight with the words; "I had a bad night." As he did when a slipping, James Tillis, extended him ten rounds in a relatively close fight, using much of what Douglas did a few years later.

evndrbsn · Post by **evndrbsn** » 02 Dec 2005, 14:19

dempseyfire wrote:Tyson proved he had more stamina? Even in his prime he never kept up the work-rate Liston did vs Machen and Whitehurst. In the Machen fight Liston is jabbing and feinting in the 11th as much as he is in the 3rd. His stamina in his prime was excellent. Liston would eat up Tyson. Too much strength, too much jab, too much toughness. Tyson's blueprint worst opponent is a strong guy with a good jab with a good chin and power to make Mike respect him. That's Liston in a nutshell.

My top 15 head to head.

1) Joe Louis
2) Jack Johnson
3) Sonny Liston
4) Ali
5) Larry Holmes
6) George Foreman
7) Jack Dempsey
8) Joe Frazier
9) Jersey Joe Walcott
10) Rocky Marciano

11) Evander Holyfield
12) Lennox Lewis
13) Mike Tyson
14) Jimmy Young
15) Gene Tunney

I like your inclusion of Jimmy Young

Sherlock · Post by **Sherlock** » 02 Dec 2005, 15:48

My top 20 head to head:

1. Jack Johnson
2. Joe Louis
3. Sonny Liston
4. Larry Holmes
5. Muhammad Ali
6. Joe Frazier
7. Jack Dempsey
8. George Foreman
9. Gene Tunney
10. Jim Jeffries
11. Jersey Joe Walcott
12. Max Schmeling
13. Mike Tyson
14. Rocky Marciano
15. Ken Norton
16. Evander Holyfield
17. Max Baer
18. Lennox Lewis
19. Floyd Patterson
20. James J. Corbett

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 02 Dec 2005, 15:54

Sherlock wrote:My top 20 head to head:

1. Jack Johnson
2. Joe Louis
3. Sonny Liston
4. Larry Holmes
5. Muhammad Ali
6. Joe Frazier
7. Jack Dempsey
8. George Foreman
9. Gene Tunney
10. Jim Jeffries
11. Jersey Joe Walcott
12. Max Schmeling
13. Mike Tyson
14. Rocky Marciano
15. Ken Norton
16. Evander Holyfield
17. Max Baer
18. Lennox Lewis
19. Floyd Patterson
20. James J. Corbett

walcott over marciano even though marciano beat him twice?

marciano all the way down at 14???

tyson at 13???

ali at 5th???

schmeling, jeffries, tunney over marciano and tyson???

johnson at # 1?

liston over ali even though ali beat him twice???

sherlock ur bias agendas have gone too far, can u give any logical reasoning for some of these views??

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 02 Dec 2005, 17:06

BB, you know enough that I don't have to tell you styles make fights.

Marciano beat a still dangerous, but old and past his best Walcott.

Walcott, with his good power, excellent conditioning, and being one of the great counter-punchers in the history of the sport with extreamly effective and akward ring movements, proves to be a problem for a greater number of fighters then Marciano, who was an excellent pressure brawler but had that one style and that excelles vs some fighters and proves weaker vs others. The hardest skill to learn in boxing is accurate counter-punching and Walcott was a master. The Jersey Joe who beat Louis the first time would've been hell for ANY HW in history and beaten most. Because he didn't get good management until late in his career and his spotty early record, he's often overlooked.

Liston may have not been as fast as Douglas but his jab was much harder and he was certainly fast enough to catch Mike coming in. Strength not a factor?? Smith, Tillis, Bruno were all able to tie Mike up without much problem. Liston, with his immense strength and the way he dug in those body shots up close, would certainly have the advantage in the clinches.

hawaiianpunch · Post by **hawaiianpunch** » 02 Dec 2005, 17:11

1. Mike Tyson
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Larry Holmes
4. Joe Louis
5. George Foreman
6. Lennox Lewis
7. Sonny Liston
8. Jack Johnson
9. Joe Frazier
10. Rocky Marciano
I actually think Riddick Bowe might beat a few of these guys at his best!

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 02 Dec 2005, 17:17

dempseyfire wrote:BB, you know enough that I don't have to tell you styles make fights.

Marciano beat a still dangerous, but old and past his best Walcott.

Walcott, with his good power, excellent conditioning, and being one of the great counter-punchers in the history of the sport with extreamly effective and akward ring movements, proves to be a problem for a greater number of fighters then Marciano, who was an excellent pressure brawler but had that one style and that excelles vs some fighters and proves weaker vs others. The hardest skill to learn in boxing is accurate counter-punching and Walcott was a master. The Jersey Joe who beat Louis the first time would've been hell for ANY HW in history and beaten most. Because he didn't get good management until late in his career and his spotty early record, he's often overlooked.

Liston may have not been as fast as Douglas but his jab was much harder and he was certainly fast enough to catch Mike coming in. Strength not a factor?? Smith, Tillis, Bruno were all able to tie Mike up without much problem. Liston, with his immense strength and the way he dug in those body shots up close, would certainly have the advantage in the clinches.

i agree walcotts peak fight was joe louis I, kinda like a douglas against tyson.

but walcotts prime didnt last one fight. it lasted from 33 years of age - first marciano fight.

i mean i thought walcotts 2nd best fight was marciano I, so if ur not in ur prime then then i dont know when the hell u are.

i also agree the walcot of the first louis fight ranks high head to head and would have beat many other champions.

would rocky have caught walcott? idk

- theres a good chance jersey joe outpoints him though

Sherlock · Post by **Sherlock** » 02 Dec 2005, 17:19

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote: walcott over marciano even though marciano beat him twice?

marciano all the way down at 14???

tyson at 13???

ali at 5th???

schmeling, jeffries, tunney over marciano and tyson???

johnson at # 1?

liston over ali even though ali beat him twice???

sherlock ur bias agendas have gone too far, can u give any logical reasoning for some of these views??

This was hypothetical, and I based it on what their talents were, who I feel they would beat, and how well they would be in defeat, not exclusively what they did as pros.

Johnson in my opinion was the 2nd most talented heavy behind Louis but was more adaptable than Louis, and wins the most matchups followed by Louis. I have Liston over Ali not because he would beat him, because he would lose, but because I have him beating Holmes and losing close decs. to Johnson and Louis. I feel Ali would lose close decs. Johnson and Holmes,and losing by kayo to Louis, and thats it. I didn't make a points tally based on wins, losses, or kayoes, just off the top of my head. I was just judging by how well they would succeed in head to head matchups, IMO.

Walcott may well have lost to Marciano, but I didn't think this was exclusively what they did as pros was the deciding factor. Marciano was by far the more accomplished fighter, but Walcott matches up better IMO.

I love Tyson, but he was a bully, and would not match up well with the greats in this list who could extend him past the 6th round and capitalize on his sub-par stamina and decision him.

Marciano is an all-time great and a top ten heavy, but was, you have to agree, a flawed fighter like everyone else. I feel Schmeling and Tunney's more balanced skills could fair better than Marciano in some cases, and others where Marciano and Jeffries bulk and power would fair better. Are Schmeling and Tunney higher than Marciano on my all-time list of heavys? No, and rightfully so. But this subject was, or at least how I see it, ason mythical match-ups and how well they fair in those.

No ill will was intended towards you BB, or anyone else. I was just stating my opinions on the subject at hand.

Irish · Post by **Irish** » 02 Dec 2005, 18:05

Tyson is way too high BB, he doesnt have the mental strength to beat these guys. If this was a talent list then that would be more realistic IMO.

theone · Post by **theone** » 02 Dec 2005, 19:04

theone wrote:
1. Ali
2.Foreman
3.Frazier
4.Holmes
5.Tyson
6.Holyfield
7.Lewis
8.Louis
9.Liston
10.Dempsey

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

8 guys over joe louis?

Seven actually. I believe all seven of these fighters would have beat the brown bomber.

fraziers too high, he was a great fight top 10 but he wouldnt fear well in slugging matchups with the better two fisted fighters. fraizer also was very predictable, he did the same motion over and over again and his headmovement was easy to time.

The only two fighters who would have beat Frazier are the two that actually did.

holyfield over dempsey, marciano, AND JOE LOUISS????

Dempsey as much as I love him is overrated in terms of head to head matches. Holyfield would counter his rushes with the hardest counter punches Dempsey had ever felt. Marciano the same thing. Holyfield is much too strong for them, has a better chin and better boxing skill then both of them. louis would give him alot more trouble but I believe Holyfields chin and hard counter punching would eventually grind the bomber down.

frazier over joe louis???

Absolutely. It would be a barn burner in the first few rounds with I'm sure Louis scoring a kockdown or two. But eventually Frazier would start to waer him down, finishing him of late in the fight.

marciano not on the list?

I dont believe he can beat anyone I listed.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 02 Dec 2005, 20:52

wow u are defintley a 70s nuthugger

how in the world is frazier gonna beat louis???

louis had just as good as a left hook as frazier PLUS faster handspeed, better two handed puncher, better defense, better boxing skills, better jab, better right hand, more accurate and better combination puncher, much more deadly punching arsenal.

how the hell is frazier going to be able to slug it out with not only a two fisted sluger with KO power in both hands, but the greatest puncher of all time.

top 10 heavyweights of all time HEAD TO HEAD

top 10 heavyweights of all time HEAD TO HEAD

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