George Foreman: What if he would have never retired?

[gregor]

OK, there was a thread about Foreman titled "What if he would have never come back?", so I wonder what are your opinions on what would have happened if he decided to stay active despite Young loss.

Personally I think that with a bit of luck he could regain the title easily... Norton was awarded the title shortly after the loss and I simply can't see him winning against George. Ali was also getting more and more past prime and if he decided to give Foreman a rematch (let's say about 79') I would favour Foreman this time. Some fighters like Young and (a bit later) Holmes would be always stylewise problematic for George, but his power could win any fight at any moment... especially with Young also slowly getting older.

[yancey]

Ali was too chickenbleep to give GF a rematch.

Something about Zaire doesn't seem quite right, imo.

Back to your topic, I think if GF hangs around, then Ali quits a bit earlier and George possibly becomes champ again afterwards.

[dempseyfire]

A Foreman-Holmes showdown in 78 . . . up there with Dempsey-Wills and Lewis-Bowe as one of boxing's greatest 'lost' fights.

[Crease]

If George has never retired, I believe he would have been the dominant force in boxing throughout the late 70s and early 80s. Larry Holmes would not be as rated as hihgly as some people rate him now (top 3).

Basically, I think George stays at the top, becomes unified Champion (after Ali retires, because Ali never gives him a rematch) and stays up ther euntil Mike Tyson comes along.

[gregor]

Basically, I think George stays at the top, becomes unified Champion after Ali retires, because Ali never gives him a rematch (...).

I agree Ali was not in hurry to give him a rematch, but it was Foreman who disappeared for more than a year from boxing scene (granted, some say he disappeared just because Ali didn't want to give him a rematch, making it a vicious circle... but I guess with a couple of more wins Ali would be finally forced to do so, I think at this time avoiding a mandatory challenger was more difficult than now).

Ali had no problems (at least not that I have heard of) to fight Norton three times, who was stylistically very bad matchup for him, so I think he would fight Foreman eventually.

[dempseyfire]

Here's another question if I may add: What if Foreman had gotten the deserved decision vs Briggs in 1997? Who would have he fought and who would have eventually beaten him? I think it's safe to say he wouldn't have fought any of the top dogs of the division in Holyfield and Lewis. Would he have accepted a fight with Tyson post Holyfield II? I actually think the Foreman who faced Briggs probably would've beaten that Tyson.

[ThatOne]

Basically, I think George stays at the top, becomes unified Champion after Ali retires, because Ali never gives him a rematch (...).

I agree Ali was not in hurry to give him a rematch, but it was Foreman who disappeared for more than a year from boxing scene (granted, some say he disappeared just because Ali didn't want to give him a rematch, making it a vicious circle... but I guess with a couple of more wins Ali would be finally forced to do so, I think at this time avoiding a mandatory challenger was more difficult than now).

Ali had no problems (at least not that I have heard of) to fight Norton and Frazier three times, who were stylistically very bad matchups for him, so I think he would fight Foreman eventually.

FIXED

Now, why would the outcome be different? The rope a dope is no longer as effective because the element of tactical surprise is gone but George is going to fight a more cautious fight. I see Ali consistently beating him to the punch pot shotting a cautious George all night.

[HomicideHenry]

Ali would have ducked him.

[Ambling Alp]

If George has never retired, I believe he would have been the dominant force in boxing throughout the late 70s and early 80s. Larry Holmes would not be as rated as hihgly as some people rate him now (top 3).

Basically, I think George stays at the top, becomes unified Champion (after Ali retires, because Ali never gives him a rematch) and stays up ther euntil Mike Tyson comes along.

If Foreman would have established himself as the #1 contender for a decent lenght of time, he would have gotton a title shot against Ali sooner or later. Ali would have been stripped of his title if he would not have. There is no way that Ali could not have ducked him for four years while keeping the title. There is absolutely no basis for saying that Ali did or would have ducked Foreman.

[dberry]

He'd have sold even more grills.......

[The Great John L]

If George has never retired, I believe he would have been the dominant force in boxing throughout the late 70s and early 80s. Larry Holmes would not be as rated as hihgly as some people rate him now (top 3).

Basically, I think George stays at the top, becomes unified Champion (after Ali retires, because Ali never gives him a rematch) and stays up ther euntil Mike Tyson comes along.

If Foreman would have established himself as the #1 contender for a decent lenght of time, he would have gotton a title shot against Ali sooner or later. Ali would have been stripped of his title if he would not have. There is no way that Ali could not have ducked him for four years while keeping the title. There is absolutely no basis for saying that Ali did or would have ducked Foreman.

There was little demand for an Ali-Foreman rematch because Ali clearly won the fight. Norton and Frazier got rematches because all of their fights were competitive. For those of us who actually followed the game during that time, George not only was stopped by Ali after a tough fight, he then mis-managed himself and made himself into a sideshow. His claims of loose ropes, being drugged, etc., in Zaire, and then the Toronto Five. C'mon people, try being objective about this topic.

And Foreman beats Holmes!!?? After Young schooled him if George had stayed around, he would have been taken back to fighting club fighters and over-hyped guys while his trainers once again tried to teach him how to use the natural gifts that he had. I could have seen him being in the the tournament held to replace Ali and probably winning that, but he would have eventually fought Holmes, who would have jabbed and hammered him with straight rights until George got stopped.

[Rocky Balboa]

If George has never retired, I believe he would have been the dominant force in boxing throughout the late 70s and early 80s. Larry Holmes would not be as rated as hihgly as some people rate him now (top 3).

Basically, I think George stays at the top, becomes unified Champion (after Ali retires, because Ali never gives him a rematch) and stays up ther euntil Mike Tyson comes along.

Holmes would have beaten Foreman at any stage of their careers. Foreman does not get Larry out of there - Holmes probably had the recuperative powers of any heavyweight. And he sure as hell cannot outbox Holmes. Foreman would be outclassed.

Holmes is arguably the most complete heavyweight ever. He had it all. He'd have been champion earlier than 1978, but he wasn't given the opportunity.

[Bricks]

I dont think Ali wanted to fight Foreman again circa 76-77. People say well he wasnt fighting anyone to be the no 1 contender, but thats not true he was beating Lyle and Frazier.....the truth is probably Ali would have fought Foreman again if he had to or was made to,and may well have won again.....but the way I see it this time the fight would be in the states, george would be far more patient, the rope a dope tactic wouldnt likely work as well again, although that said Ali was capable of potshotting Foreman to the floor again....

Ultimately I dont think Ali can be accused of ducking Foreman (money wasnt right-no need to beat a man he beat already as the Norton and Frazier rematches were to clear the deck/win the series).

Ali's balls in taking on Foreman after what he did to Norton and Frazier and Ali's own struggles with those 2, mean no one can ever accuse this man of ducking anyone.

[Dempsey1919]

I just now stumbled across this thread, but it's an interesting question. This is my guess as to how it plays out.

In the short term, not much changes. By beating Foreman, Jimmy Young had established himself as one of the top two contenders. As in real life, he would go on to lose to Norton, while Ali goes ahead with the Shavers and Spinks fights. Ali loses to Spinks and wins the rematch, with Norton being awarded the WBC title and losing it to Larry Holmes.

Meanwhile, Foreman fights a few lower-profile matches, before being given a title shot against Holmes in late 1978 or early 1979. After Holmes wins (by decision or late-round stoppage), Foreman again hits the comeback trail, finally winning the WBA championship against either John Tate or Mike Weaver (two fighters far less talented than Holmes, but anxious for a big payday). Ring Magazine recognizes Holmes as the true heavyweight champion, by virtue of his win over Foreman.

Things really get interesting when Ali announces his comeback bid. Even though Holmes is considered the best heavyweight in the world, a Foreman rematch would generate more interest (and quite possibly, the sport's first $10 million payday). Even with Foreman now past his prime, neither matchup would be a good one for Ali, who at this stage has nothing left.

If an aging Foreman can survive the Michael Dokeses and Tim Witherspoons, a Holmes rematch would be probable, despite arousing little interest. Holmes has just enough left to assert his superiority once more, and Foreman then retires. The additional fights take their toll, and the 1987 comeback never happens.

Just an opinion.

[BoxBuzz]

If George has never retired, I believe he would have been the dominant force in boxing throughout the late 70s and early 80s. Larry Holmes would not be as rated as hihgly as some people rate him now (top 3).

Basically, I think George stays at the top, becomes unified Champion (after Ali retires, because Ali never gives him a rematch) and stays up ther euntil Mike Tyson comes along.

Holmes would have beaten Foreman at any stage of their careers. Foreman does not get Larry out of there - Holmes probably had the recuperative powers of any heavyweight. And he sure as hell cannot outbox Holmes. Foreman would be outclassed.

Holmes is arguably the most complete heavyweight ever. He had it all. He'd have been champion earlier than 1978, but he wasn't given the opportunity.

Well, he fought Norton to a draw, though he walked away with a belt. He was decked by Shavers and Snipes. I think a Foreman vs Holmes is far more of a pick'em affair. And Holmes would not be invulnerable to Foreman's power, though if it went the distance, it would be hard to imagine George winning unless he had a few knockdowns along the way.

[HomicideHenry]

I look at it with the same logic and premise as the many discussions over the years about Ike Ibeabuchi and what if he had a shot at the title--- while it is true Foreman wasn't technically gifted and had the best arsenal (outside of his power) he was better than alot of people thought prior to facing Muhammad Ali. The Foreman, following Zaire, was a completely different person and fighter altogether. Any bit of ring science/ability was thrown out the window, and we saw a man driven solely by his passions and rage--- a head hunter hoping to kill someone. Foreman following Zaire was an emotionally fragile and unstable man, and it shows in the films of his matches. Sure the power was still there, as well as the ability to take a punch; but Foreman seldom used the jab anymore and was all about brute force and intimidation.

Considering the aftermath of the Jimmy Young fight, in which Foreman experienced his Christian conversion in the locker room, etc. all thoughts and energies of being a fighter was gone out of his heart and mind. I think had he continued for one reason or another--- he would of ultimately lost, and lost again. The mindset just wasn't there. The heart and the passion for the business was no longer there. It took a decade for him to be able to get back around into the idea of being a fighter again; and even at that, he still had to compete in well over twenty matches to get into some resemblance of shape and contention--- it wasnt just the long lay off, or him being so huge either, it was him making this mental/emotional transition from Christian preacher and youth counselor into being a prizefighter.

[Seamus]

I think the Ali, Lyle, Young fights were damaging to his confidence and exposed his flaws. He came back an older but psychologically rejuvenated fighter.

[drunkenpiper36]

It could have panned out in a few different ways. On one hand, he had the tools to beat most of the top men who were around between 1977-1983, but on the other, his head was no longer in the game. In addition, the reason he was successful years later in his actual comeback was because he had vastly improved his defense, learned to pace himself, and began throwing strait punches rather than the constant looping hooks. He also benefited from some selective match making, which is something he might not have had the luxury of had he stuck around back in the day. Without all of these factors, I could see certain men getting the better of him, as his reflexes and stamina diminished with time. In my mind, he was never going to beat Larry Holmes, particularly between 1978-1983 when Larry was prime. Other fighters like Tim Witherspoon, Greg Page, and Michael Dokes could have posed problem's for stylistic reasons as George aged, and without making some of the adjustments that I said he needed earlier. My guess is that ( and assuming that he was properly motivated and maintained his conditioning ) he'd briefly pick up a fragment title, possibly beat a few guys like Weaver, Coetzee, Knoetze, Cobb, etc, but drop a loss to someone along the way.

[Nile4000]

Larry Holmes would eventually have gotten to him by late 1978, and decisioned him, retiring him for a good while.

[raylawpc]

George Foreman: What if he would have never retired?

He would be very beat up by now . . .

[polecateddy]

Two words - brain damage.

[Heartbreak_Kid79]

Foreman fell for the rope-a-dope once.... Ali would have needed a new tactic if a rematch materialised.

That said, Foreman would have brushed aside Norton and Leon Spinks.
Larry Holmes is a tough call. He could outbox George... but if George tagged him, then Larry might not climb up off the floor like he did when floored by lesser punchers.
Michael Spinks could have ironed out a decision over a 37 year old Foreman... providing he keeps his distance.
George could have got the better of many of the short term beltholders (Smith, Berbick, Thomas, Dokes etc)

Foreman would have been 38 by the time Mike Tyson came to prominence. A prime Tyson beats Foreman on points.

[keithmoonhangover]

If Foreman hadn't retired, he would have been down the rankings after his loss to Jimmy Young. He may have fought Ali, he may not, but one day, he would have stood across the ring from Larry Holmes and would have taken the beating of his life.

[man]

george had total lack of ring intelligence
before his comeback, ali was just the first
who exposed that. i think he could have
very well become a failed prospect who
had miracle nights with frazier and norton.

i doubt he would have ever beaten larry.