Rocky Marciano vs. Joe Frazier

[Crease]

Heard it. Think it was a rumour that gathered some cred after Holmes lost to Spinks. Then it sort of got squashed again. Haven't seen the fight. But people I trust tell me Rocky deserved the decision.

I have never seen the Marciano vs LaStarza I fight, has anyone actually seen it or is there no footage of the bout...

I believed for years that no-one has the fight footage, but from time-to-time on here, someone comes out and starts discussing this fight as if they've seen it.
I find it very annoying.

[Crease]

This can be a problem question.....because one answer is "Sven Ottke".

Let's not make a joke out of Ottke's name, he did incredibly well in his professional career - and I have high respect for the man - not for going undefeated, but for his regular 4 title defences per calendar year for five consecutive years (from 1999-2003) culminating in 20 title defences.

To my mind, that is a very understated achievement. These days I think boxing fans get caught up in fighters winning World Titles, dropping them and moving up and down weights to be multiple weight World Champions - we've seen it happen in dozens of times over the past decade...

But for me, holding on to a belt, regularly defending it every three/four months is perhaps an even greater and infinitely more honourable than just blatantly clocking up World Titles in various weights.
(Though of course, you can't really make that a generalised statement - you would need to take it on a case-by-case basis)

It would be a real shame if Sven's name became a boxing punch line.

:(

[Crease]

One last thing I would say regarding Marciano and his comparisons to Sven Ottke or Joe Calzaghe is... There is very little doubt that Marciano fought all the best fighters of his time - that can't be said for Ottke or Calzaghe.

[Ambling Alp II]

Frazier missed several as well.

[BoxBuzz]

This can be a problem question.....because one answer is "Sven Ottke".

Let's not make a joke out of Ottke's name, he did incredibly well in his professional career - and I have high respect for the man - not for going undefeated, but for his regular 4 title defences per calendar year for five consecutive years (from 1999-2003) culminating in 20 title defences.

To my mind, that is a very understated achievement. These days I think boxing fans get caught up in fighters winning World Titles, dropping them and moving up and down weights to be multiple weight World Champions - we've seen it happen in dozens of times over the past decade...

But for me, holding on to a belt, regularly defending it every three/four months is perhaps an even greater and infinitely more honourable than just blatantly clocking up World Titles in various weights.
(Though of course, you can't really make that a generalised statement - you would need to take it on a case-by-case basis)

It would be a real shame if Sven's name became a boxing punch line.

:(

"Punch Line" I get it.

[yancey]

Yank Durham

The only thing I worry about, is guys with good straight right-hands. The hookers I'm not so worried about.

Some early bouts that Yank steered Joe away from;
* Zora Folley............ 1966/1967
* Leotis Martin.......... 1967/1968/1969
* Thad Spencer......... 1966/1967/1968
* Jerry Quarry........... 1967/1968
* Cleveland Williams... 1966
* Sonny Liston........... 1968/1969
* Al 'Blue' Lewis......... 1968 thru 1972

Sound advice from Yank.

It would have been unfair to ask Joe to put away all these guys over the course of three nights.

[BoxBuzz]

He avoided Thad Spencer, and that is a cold hard science fiction fact my friend.

[yancey]

He avoided Thad Spencer, and that is a cold hard science fiction fact my friend.

1968 Joe Frazier freaking walks through anything Thad Spencer could have reached down and found. May they both RIP.

MSG and Yank knew they had the real goods, they didn't need to screw around with some 8 man dog and pony show to prove it.

[yancey]

He avoided Thad Spencer, and that is a cold hard science fiction fact my friend.

"fiction fact", can't have them both, bud.



Wait a sec...you're an Ali guy, right?

Maybe you can after all.

[yancey]

He avoided Thad Spencer, and that is a cold hard science fiction fact my friend.

That my Friend,

Was a direct statement from Mr. Yancey Durham in "May 1966".

Yancey Durham >
'That kid out on the West Coast {Thad Spencer} is a pretty good fighter. He's got a good left-hook to the body,
and he's got a dangerous right-hand. I don't like to put Joe in with those heavy-handed right-hand punchers right
now.'

1966 Frazier was still learning.

Who was '62 Clay/Ali fighting?

Who was '50 Marciano fighting?

They all have to go through that stage.

By the latter part of '67 and 1968 Frazier would have been too much for Spencer.

[yancey]

Rocky Marciano vs. Joe Frazier

Rocky Marciano ~ 5' 10" ~ 188 lbs.

Joe Frazier ~ 5' 11" ~ 205 lbs.

That is a big weight difference for this bout. But, remember that Joe didn't blow everybody out so quickly. He wore
them down first, then stopped them.

This would be a much closer fight than expected, with Joe winning a close 15-round Decision.

Rocky was great and despite my criticism of some of his opponent's won/lost records and disappointment in some of his ring tactics, I do have considerable respect for him.

The reason?

Because he wore the belt like a champion and respected the title.

I can remember listening to Ali-Liston in '64 on the radio. Rocky was doing the color commentary and you could hear the disappointment in his voice when Liston quit.

Marciano would have NEVER gone out like that and disrespected the title.

As far as Frazier-Marciano goes, I see it as similar to the first Frazier-Quarry fight, with the fight being stopped by the 10th, very possibly from all the gore. Rocky would be extremely dangerous, but Joe gets controls and pushes him back beginning about the 4th. Great fight, but Joe slowly beats him down.

[raylawpc]

He avoided Thad Spencer, and that is a cold hard science fiction fact my friend.

That my Friend,

Was a direct statement from Mr. Yancey Durham in "May 1966".

Yancey Durham >
'That kid out on the West Coast {Thad Spencer} is a pretty good fighter. He's got a good left-hook to the body,
and he's got a dangerous right-hand. I don't like to put Joe in with those heavy-handed right-hand punchers right
now.'

Sources please . . .

[raylawpc]

Ring Magazine {November 1967}

Interview from September 1967.

Thad Spencer >
"Who has Joe Frazier fought. A bunch of nobodies. I'll fight him anytime and anywhere. Even in Philadelphia.
My Manager {Willie Ketchum} contacted his Manager {Yank Durham}. He told us that they weren't ready for
us just yet."

"He's tailor-made for my right-hand, and his Manager knows it. That's why he won't fight me."

"Look who I've fought this year, Amos Lincoln {June 27} and Ernie Terrell {August 5th}. The #3 and #1 Ranked
Heavyweights. I want to fight Floyd Patterson, Jerry Quarry or Cassius Clay {if he can free himself}. I have called
all of them out, including Frazier."

"Look at what he's been fighting. Jefferson Davis, George 'Scrap Iron' Johnson and George Chuvalo. Nothing but
scrapings off of the 'trash heap'.

Sources please . . .

[Ambling Alp II]

Head to head, Frazier was the better defensively, and the more accurate puncher. He would hit Marciano more often than Marciano would hit him in a long fight. Frazier had the great left hook, and Marciano had the great right. However, Marciano had a better two-fisted power, his left was better than Frazier's right.

Marciano probably had a slightly better chin, but that is arguable. Frazier would still have an edge. However, one thing that reduces that edge is that Frazier was a slow starter; it would not be out the question for Marciano to blow him out early.

[gilgamesh]

Ring Magazine {November 1967}

Interview from September 1967.

Thad Spencer >
"Who has Joe Frazier fought. A bunch of nobodies. I'll fight him anytime and anywhere. Even in Philadelphia.
My Manager {Willie Ketchum} contacted his Manager {Yank Durham}. He told us that they weren't ready for
us just yet."

"He's tailor-made for my right-hand, and his Manager knows it. That's why he won't fight me."

"Look who I've fought this year, Amos Lincoln {June 27} and Ernie Terrell {August 5th}. The #3 and #1 Ranked
Heavyweights. I want to fight Floyd Patterson, Jerry Quarry or Cassius Clay {if he can free himself}. I have called
all of them out, including Frazier."

"Look at what he's been fighting. Jefferson Davis, George 'Scrap Iron' Johnson and George Chuvalo. Nothing but
scrapings off of the 'trash heap'.

Sources please . . .

I think you're just messing with him at this point raylaw, cuz as much as I'm not a fan of Duce's comment for the most part, he gave you the source that time right at the top of the post.

[BoxBuzz]

I've got a lot of the old ring magazines.

So Duce, If I dig this one out, will I find these words in it?

In the past, it aint worked out quite that way.

[gilgamesh]

I've got a lot of the old ring magazines.

So Duce, If I dig this one out, will I find these words in it?

In the past, it aint worked out quite that way.

By all means Buzz, if you got this one stored away, dig it out and see if these quotes are in there. I'm intrigued.

[yancey]

I've got a lot of the old ring magazines.

So Duce, If I dig this one out, will I find these words in it?

In the past, it aint worked out quite that way.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe you will find that Thad Spencer was 'very boastful' in his Magazine interviews.

And that, Yank Durham was very selective in choosing opponents for Joe Frazier.

"Very selective" as in putting Frazier up against Oscar Bonavena in Joe's 12th pro fight, right?

I wonder what caliber of opposition Ali and Rocky were facing in their 12th pro fight?

Reckon their opposition was as dangerous as Bonavena?

[BoxBuzz]

Bonavena dropped him like a bad habit Lucky Frazier was able to shake it off.

Yancey.....Il Duce is right again.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

He didn't get dropped by Sonny Banks!

[raylawpc]

Ring Magazine {November 1967}

Interview from September 1967.

Thad Spencer >
"Who has Joe Frazier fought. A bunch of nobodies. I'll fight him anytime and anywhere. Even in Philadelphia.
My Manager {Willie Ketchum} contacted his Manager {Yank Durham}. He told us that they weren't ready for
us just yet."

"He's tailor-made for my right-hand, and his Manager knows it. That's why he won't fight me."

"Look who I've fought this year, Amos Lincoln {June 27} and Ernie Terrell {August 5th}. The #3 and #1 Ranked
Heavyweights. I want to fight Floyd Patterson, Jerry Quarry or Cassius Clay {if he can free himself}. I have called
all of them out, including Frazier."

"Look at what he's been fighting. Jefferson Davis, George 'Scrap Iron' Johnson and George Chuvalo. Nothing but
scrapings off of the 'trash heap'.

Sources please . . .

I think you're just messing with him at this point raylaw, cuz as much as I'm not a fan of Duce's comment for the most part, he gave you the source that time right at the top of the post.

Have you read the Ring Magazine, November 1967?

[gilgamesh]

I think you're just messing with him at this point raylaw, cuz as much as I'm not a fan of Duce's comment for the most part, he gave you the source that time right at the top of the post.

Have you read the Ring Magazine, November 1967?

I have not, but that's the source according to Il Duce. I'm not saying that those quotes are in there, I'm just saying he did point out a source that time. A rarity from Duce.

Whether the quotes he claimed to be there are there I don't know. I wouldn't be a bit surprised to find that they weren't. But nevertheless, he did at least in that case provide a source. Whether accurate or not. Is up to you to find out.

I hope Buzz has that particular issue so he can let us know.

[yancey]

Bonavena dropped him like a bad habit Lucky Frazier was able to shake it off.

Yancey.....Il Duce is right again.

Not disputing that Frazier had a very rough go against Oscar.

I was just making the case that Yank was not selecting a complete bunch of creampuffs for Joe to feed on in the '66 time period.

Personally, I think it was a huge blunder to throw Frazier into the ring with someone as tough as Bonavena in only their 12th fight.

On the other hand, putting Joe up against a aging but savvy, defensive-minded guy like Machen was a good move. Joe got a good education, but at the same time he was exposed to less danger than Bonavena potentially presented.

[Roco]

I favour Marciano in this match. I think he carried his power into the late rounds and would hurt Frazier and he would not be able to recover. Marciano by stoppage around round 12/13.

[raylawpc]

I think you're just messing with him at this point raylaw, cuz as much as I'm not a fan of Duce's comment for the most part, he gave you the source that time right at the top of the post.

Have you read the Ring Magazine, November 1967?

I have not, but that's the source according to Il Duce. I'm not saying that those quotes are in there, I'm just saying he did point out a source that time. A rarity from Duce.

Whether the quotes he claimed to be there are there I don't know. I wouldn't be a bit surprised to find that they weren't. But nevertheless, he did at least in that case provide a source. Whether accurate or not. Is up to you to find out.

I hope Buzz has that particular issue so he can let us know.

If you get out your magnifying glass and look at those newspaper articles he posts, you discover (1) they don't support what he says at all, or (2) his "quotes" are actually a bad paraphrase of what was actually said.

Posting a photo of a magazine cover is meaningless . . .