Rocky Marciano vs. Joe Frazier

[BoxBuzz]

I gotta agree with Ray.....I've chased his "sources" from here to Omaha.....and 90% of them are flatulent.

[Jaclem]

..haven't read any of the previous accounts.....just glanced at the title of this one. of course frazier would beat marciano. i don't understand why this post has gone on for so long.

[gilgamesh]

I was not saying his source was accurate.

I know he makes up sh*t all the time. I meant that he provided a source for you to at least check and see if he was lying or not. I'm sure he was. He lies all the time.

[hhascup]

Here's what I wrote several years ago on Rocky's record.

Rocky fought his 1st top 10 contender in his 26th bout when he won a close split decision against LaStarza. He fought another 10 bouts before he fought another top 10 contender when he stopped Rex Layne. When he fought Moore that was only the 11th time Rocky ever fought a boxer that was rated in the top 10 when he fought them.

Lets look at the best boxers he fought:

Rocky fought LaStarza twice (1950 & 1953) and he was very good. A lot of people thought LaStarza beat Rocky in their 1st bout. Rocky would stop him in the return bout.

He also fought Walcott (1952 & 1953) and Charles (both in 1954) twice each. Charles had 90 bouts at that time and he had seen better days.

In his 1st bout with Rocky, Charles fought very well, and it was a lot closer then a lot of people thought it would be and people wanted to see a return go. Rocky stopped Charles in the return bout.

In the 1st Walcott bout going into the 13th round, the judges had Jersey Joe ahead 7-4, 7-5 and 8-4. Rocky stopped Jersey Joe in the return bout in 1 round.

He only fought another 10 boxers that were ever in the Top 10 by Ring at one time or another.

Phil Muscato (December 1949) was last rated in the top 10 in June of 1948, he fought Rocky the next year after losing 4 in a row and 5 out of his last 6.

Johnny Shkor (September 1950) was 29-18-2 at the time he fought Rocky in 1950. He was last rated in 1947. He just got stopped by Walcott and lost his last 7 of 11 bouts.

Rex Layne (July 1951) had a pro record of 34-1-2 with 24 knockouts going into the bout with Rocky. He was a very good boxer, in fact he was one of the best at that time.

Freddy Beshore (August 1951) was last rated in October 1950, Rocky fought him in August of 1951. He lost 7 of his last 9 bouts before he fought Rocky.

Joe Louis (October 1951) who was still good, BUT way past his prime when he fought Marciano. His record was 61-1 with 52 KO's in his 1st 62 bouts. In his last 9 bouts before he fought Rocky, Louis was 8-1 with only 3 KO's

Lee Savold (February 1952) was last rated in 1951, Rocky stopped him in 1952. Savold was also stopped 9 times before his bout with Rocky, including one by an aging Joe Louis.

Bernie Reynolds (May 1952), who lost 4 out of his last 6 bouts before boxing Rocky in 1952. Reynolds was past his prime as the last time he was rated was 1949.

Harry Kid Matthews (July 1952) was an excellent boxer with an excellent record, he was 51-0-1 with 36 KO's in his last 52 bouts before he faced Rocky, but he was really a Light Heavyweight.

Don Cockell (May 1955) beat Matthews 3 times and LaStarza. He was also stopped 6 times before he fought Rocky, including a bout with Randy Turpin, a Middleweight, in which he out weigh Turpin by 12 pounds. He was dropped 3 times in the bout.

Archie Moore (September 1955), he was one of the Greatest Light Heavyweights ever.

So if you go by this, the only boxers that were rated in the top 10 when he fought them were Walcott, Charles and LaStarza twice each, Louis, Moore, Layne, Matthews and Cockell. So that means he fought only 8 boxers, 11 times that were rated in the top 10 at the time he fought them.

Rocky fought 13 different fighters a total of 16 times that were rated in the Top 10 at one time or another in 49 fights.
Frazier fought 13 different fighters a total of 19 times that were rated in the Top 10 at one time or another in 37 fights.

[Ambling Alp II]

That is a lot to chew on. Obviously it can be deceiving because there is a huge difference between fighting the #1 contender and the #10. Still interesting though.
Another stat that is interesting is their records against opponents in the top 10 (or champion) at the time they fought them.

Frazier was 9-4 which is pretty good. (This isn't counting the fight against light heavyweight champ Foster)
Marciano was 11-0.

[hhascup]

That is a lot to chew on. Obviously it can be deceiving because there is a huge difference between fighting the #1 contender and the #10. Still interesting though.
Another stat that is interesting is their records against opponents in the top 10 (or champion) at the time they fought them.

Frazier was 9-4 which is pretty good. (This isn't counting the fight against light heavyweight champ Foster)
Marciano was 11-0.

The 4 loses were against Ali and Foreman. Not too many fighters would have beaten either of them.

[BoxBuzz]

Frazier completely ducked Leotis Martin. You know and I know it....and that other guy knows it.

[hhascup]

They were both Great Fighters !

I would have Loved to see a Tournament with Rocky, Frazier, Dempsey and Tyson. Each going against each other once. That would be a boxing fans dream Tournament.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I think Frazier goes 3-0 there.

[Ambling Alp II]

That is a lot to chew on. Obviously it can be deceiving because there is a huge difference between fighting the #1 contender and the #10. Still interesting though.
Another stat that is interesting is their records against opponents in the top 10 (or champion) at the time they fought them.

Frazier was 9-4 which is pretty good. (This isn't counting the fight against light heavyweight champ Foster)
Marciano was 11-0.

The 4 loses were against Ali and Foreman. Not too many fighters would have beaten either of them.

No disagreement there.

[yancey]

That is a lot to chew on. Obviously it can be deceiving because there is a huge difference between fighting the #1 contender and the #10. Still interesting though.
Another stat that is interesting is their records against opponents in the top 10 (or champion) at the time they fought them.

Frazier was 9-4 which is pretty good. (This isn't counting the fight against light heavyweight champ Foster)
Marciano was 11-0.

The 4 loses were against Ali and Foreman. Not too many fighters would have beaten either of them.

Except in the most important fight of the 20th century.

[yancey]

I think Frazier goes 3-0 there.

Tyson would scare me in those first 2 rounds.

[BoxBuzz]

I think Frazier goes 3-0 there.

Tyson would scare me in those first 2 rounds.

That's cuz you're scared of your own reflection....... but Joe would just see Tyson as another day at the office.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I'd be most concerned with Marciano. Frazier would take Mike's soul.

[yancey]

I think Frazier goes 3-0 there.

Tyson would scare me in those first 2 rounds.

That's cuz you're scared of your own reflection....... but Joe would just see Tyson as another day at the office.

One man's reflectional fantasy is another's cold, hard dose of reality.

In other words, Tyson could get in a big early shot, go batshite crazy, and take out Joe and the ref before one can say "BoxBuzz doesn't have a clue what he's talking about."

Not saying it would happen.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

It wouldn't, if he dropped Joe he would bounce up and come after him. Mike would try to hold on the inside and he'd get backed up and beat up.

[hhascup]

Tyson was a fast starter and he hit very hard. He had 22 first round knockouts and if you count Peter McNeeley, it would be 23 in his 58 bouts. The longer the fight went the better chance Frazier would have, the same thing with Rocky. Dempsey was another fast starter.

[yancey]

I'd be most concerned with Marciano. Frazier would take Mike's soul.

Yes, a likelihood that Joe would ultimately own Tyson and Mike would never, ever be the same.

I'm just a little wary of Mike getting in something very early, before character asserts itself. Call it a bad Jamaican experience.

[BoxBuzz]

Frazier would not buy a single solitary ounce of what Tyson was sellin'.

Apparently you didn't learn that Joe had a sign up at his gym clearly stating "No Solicitors".

And Tyson's early 1 round dominance record was built on chumps, and later on he'd have a good man beat based on the media hype that "to fight Mike was a hopeless cause." Joe never watched the media. Not sure he even owned a T.V.

And Tyson NEVER, NOT ONCE got up and finished a job that he fell behind on.

Cripes.....BoneC and RaZor gave Mike a good fight. Frazier would barbecue Mike.


Yancey....I don't appreciate your anti Frazier bias. And I intend to take a stand. I'll give ya fair

warning here and now.. wake up and smell the coffee or be out of the forum by sundown.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

He's no Foreman.

[yancey]

He's no Foreman.

Okay, I'm in agreement.

And I should have said "apprehensive", not "scared."

It got Buzzy all worked up.

[yancey]

Frazier would not buy a single solitary ounce of what Tyson was sellin'.

Apparently you didn't learn that Joe had a sign up at his gym clearly stating "No Solicitors".

And Tyson's early 1 round dominance record was built on chumps, and later on he'd have a good man beat based on the media hype that "to fight Mike was a hopeless cause." Joe never watched the media. Not sure he even owned a T.V.

And Tyson NEVER, NOT ONCE got up and finished a job that he fell behind on.

Cripes.....BoneC and RaZor gave Mike a good fight. Frazier would barbecue Mike.


Yancey....I don't appreciate your anti Frazier bias. And I intend to take a stand. I'll give ya fair

warning here and now.. wake up and smell the coffee or be out of the forum by sundown.

And here I was thinking I had my anti-Frazier agenda covered up.

;;-)

[hhascup]

I like both Tyson and Frazier. I MC'ed a Ring 8 Christmas Party in New York and Frazier sat next to me for 5 hours. The same thing happened at the New Jersey Boxing Hall of Fame affair this past November with Tyson.

Tyson was a fast starter and Frazier wasn't, so Tyson would have the advantage early on. Tyson also had very fast hands. Frazier had the better heart and stamina, so like I said, the longer it went the advantage would go to Joe!

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Joe would wake up as soon as Mike touched him. I wouldn't say Tyson was any faster than a prime Frazier either. The biggest difference between them is in-fighting. Joe was one of the greatest ever in tight and Tyson was clueless after a couple of programmed combos. Two guys coming forward and only one of them knows what to do when they collide.

[hhascup]

Joe would wake up as soon as Mike touched him. I wouldn't say Tyson was any faster than a prime Frazier either. The biggest difference between them is in-fighting. Joe was one of the greatest ever in tight and Tyson was clueless after a couple of programmed combos. Two guys coming forward and only one of them knows what to do when they collide.

I am not saying Tyson would win but he hit hard and fast with both hands, Joe on the other hand had one of the Greatest left hooks ever. Most boxing Historians list Patterson, Ali and Tyson as having the fastest hands as a Heavyweight.